What Pakistan Knew About Bin Laden

[अखण्ड भारत!!!]

Title should be Pakistan knew everything about laden

 

[CENTCOM]

We understand that there is a lot of speculation regarding the allegations made in the NY Times article. Laura Lucas Magnuson, a spokesperson for the National Security Council at the White House, refuted the allegations and had this to say: “As US officials have said, we have no reason to believe that anyone in the highest levels of the government knew about the location of bin Laden. That continues to be true.” Additionally, the spokesperson of the Pakistan embassy in Washington DC noted that senior US officials “have on a number of occasions stated on record that they had seen no intelligence linking the government of Pakistan and any of its agencies to OBL’s presence in Abbottabad. To still believe otherwise and to resurrect the issue through unnamed sources and unconfirmed reports does not deserve attention,” the embassy spokesperson added.

Ali Khan
Digital Engagement Team, USCENTCOM

 

[Donatello]

Title should be Pakistan knew everything about laden

Yes they knew. So what's your problem?

 

[batmannow]

lets roll the ball here?
if ISI had the knowledge, then CIA had the knowledge too about OBL, its grunted!
both played to thier fullest potentials, but in the end, it was getting out of both hands, so with up most coopreation, by zardari shb & kiyani shb, sheep called OBL brought to the butcher.

 

[SQ8]

Did no one in Pakistan's intelligence service.. retired or serving . know about Bin Laden?
I certainly doubt that...However, My suspicions are on the very people that are responsible for Mehran and Kamra.. ex military and intel personell who have turned radicals. These people know about the system, still have their connections.. and know how to dodge their ex-career places.

The ISI is a quagmire.. it is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world but it is not perfect either. it makes glaring mistakes as well.. and has left many a door open for being flanked in the past. The overlook on simple weather gear reportedly cost us the element of surprise in Siachen.

 

[batmannow]

Did no one in Pakistan's intelligence service.. retired or serving . know about Bin Laden?
I certainly doubt that...However, My suspicions are on the very people that are responsible for Mehran and Kamra.. ex military and intel personell who have turned radicals. These people know about the system, still have their connections.. and know how to dodge their ex-career places.

The ISI is a quagmire.. it is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world but it is not perfect either. it makes glaring mistakes as well.. and has left many a door open for being flanked in the past. The overlook on simple weather gear reportedly cost us the element of surprise in Siachen.

but it happens all the time ? just imagine 9/11 hijackers in USA, then thier attempt, then the delivery of the planes to thier targets?
where was CIA, or even FBI?
i guss, but its just a guss, yes OBL was here & both. CIA & ISI had the knowledge about it, he was tool of a plan against IRAN but went totaly wrong, because of few misunderstandings by the both sides!
what happened later, was been coopreated by both, i mean OBL,s capture or kill?

 

[Solomon2]

Pakistani reporters have wrote stories far worse than these and they were based on facts. This article is largely based on fiction without any concrete proof or even logic.

It's very difficult to produce "concrete" proof in Pakistan, since the ISI is unaccountable to democratic authority. One of the problems I noted from Wikileaks is that this pervades Pakistan's polity, leading to officials who operate based on commonly-held fictions - for example, Nawaz Sharif telling the U.S. ambassador that the U.S. chooses Pakistan's military leaders. I can just imagine how that made her eyes spin...

I think the reporter here made a good-faith effort to write the story. She doesn't need concrete facts for that, just sources, and if she managed to collaborate one source with another that's plenty good enough for the NYT. However, that doesn't mean the sources were not, themselves, operating under the kind of delusion that Nawaz Sharif had. Nor does that mean the sources are in error. I cannot, therefore, class the article as fiction.

If there is some sort of internal inconsistency in the article's logic, can you tell me what it is?

 

[SQ8]

but it happens all the time ? just imagine 9/11 hijackers in USA, then thier attempt, then the delivery of the planes to thier targets?
where was CIA, or even FBI?
i guss, but its just a guss, yes OBL was here & both. CIA & ISI had the knowledge about it, he was tool of a plan against IRAN but went totaly wrong, because of few misunderstandings by the both sides!
what happened later, was been coopreated by both, i mean OBL,s capture or kill?

I think the ISI was in cntact with OBL pre 9/11.. and once it did happen.. they panicked and cut their ties. But there were people in the ISI and Army who supported OBL and who left.. and are still out there now fighting against Pakistan.

 

[Contrarian]

The ISI is a quagmire.. it is one of the best intelligence agencies in the world but it is not perfect either. it makes glaring mistakes as well.. and has left many a door open for being flanked in the past. The overlook on simple weather gear reportedly cost us the element of surprise in Siachen.

Oh yeah. Heard that story. Per it, not just surprise, but the Siachen itself completely. Had that not happened, Pakistan would have been there first and would have been the current owner.

 

[SQ8]

Oh yeah. Heard that story. Per it, not just surprise, but the Siachen itself completely. Had that not happened, Pakistan would have been there first and would have been the current owner.

Point being .. the ISI is good.. very good.. but its not perfect. Especially if you are an ex employee disgruntled with how your employers are getting cozy with the Americans whom you consider as infidel enemies.

 

[Solomon2]

But there were people in the ISI and Army who supported OBL and who left.. and are still out there now fighting against Pakistan.

Pakistan has somewhat more democracy today then a decade ago. You think Mushy was lord and president. Not so; he was at the top of a military oligarchy. Think 1970s Argentina. The top guy only has such authority as his underlings permit. This gives them great flexibility in decision-making and carrying out orders; there is no political check on action, so as long as they can cover their butts and make it look like they were complying with orders they can do what they want. There isn't a better reason for increased political accountability of the intelligence services to democratically-elected representatives than breaking these fetters of secret power. Unfortunately, Pakistan has made no progress here, nor has the U.S. pushed Pakistan to do so via economic or military incentives; you guys are going to have to do the hard work yourselves.

 

[SQ8]

Pakistan has somewhat more democracy today then a decade ago. You think Mushy was lord and president. Not so; he was at the top of a military oligarchy. Think 1970s Argentina. The top guy only has such authority as his underlings permit. This gives them great flexibility in decision-making and carrying out orders; there is no political check on action, so as long as they can cover their butts and make it look like they were complying with orders they can do what they want. There isn't a better reason for increased political accountability of the intelligence services to democratically-elected representatives than breaking these fetters of secret power. Unfortunately, Pakistan has made no progress here, nor has the U.S. pushed Pakistan to do so via economic or military incentives; you guys are going to have to do the hard work yourselves.

That he may be, but the question with Military Inc in Pakistan is slightly more complicated than Argentina. While the Argentinian military was involved at a social level.. it was not entrenched as the Pakistani military is. To make it short, what it would take to displace the Military Junta in Argentina is not going to cut it for Pakistan.

 

[Solomon2]

That he may be, but the question with Military Inc in Pakistan is slightly more complicated than Argentina. While the Argentinian military was involved at a social level.. it was not entrenched as the Pakistani military is. To make it short, what it would take to displace the Military Junta in Argentina is not going to cut it for Pakistan.

That's a good observation. Yes, the Argentine Junta fell when the Brits defeated it because they set themselves over the people, whereas in Pakistan the "entrenchment" seems to be in Pakistanis' minds. That's the result of the military's fifty-year effort at elevating itself over other institutions in Pakistan. Yet all government is a form of shared myth - a set of principles or conduct held in common. That can be changed, but ONLY if you work at it.

 

[Jaanbaz]

Who cares? Hes dead now. Good riddance. He was a terrorist. I have no sympathy for him.

 

[SQ8]

That's a good observation. Yes, the Argentine Junta fell when the Brits defeated it because they set themselves over the people, whereas in Pakistan the "entrenchment" seems to be in Pakistanis' minds. That's the result of the military's fifty-year effort at elevating itself over other institutions in Pakistan. Yet all government is a form of shared myth - a set of principles or conduct held in common. That can be changed, but ONLY if you work at it.

Shared myth it may be, but myth busting requires a dispersion of education .. at least to a certain degree. Pakistan lacks that..

Think of it this way, a state founded on the basis of common religion.. say Israel(since you know much about it).. but WITHOUT a good education system and low literacy rate.. how successful would it be?
Lets assume a replication of the events in Pakistan but in a Israeli setting in terms of only education.. and game out if the scenario would have been different. Would accountability have been the same? with so many migrants.. so many ethnicities under the same state?