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What led to the failure of project Azm?

Exactly what I thought when I read it but seems it's just an incubator for start ups according to the interviews I saw, I don't think it's going to produce anything significant like Azm, although it seems like a mini ecosystem is starting to be built.

Nspire brings people with ideas, helps them set things up and connects them with Air University and PAC Kamra. And this ecosystem is hosted at the NASTP which is part of ACP and supposedly hosts requires facilities.


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Fancy buildings using DHA experience : Check

Actual competence in leading a project of this magnitude: Not check

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As I said earlier, these are boomer uncles that don't know how to properly manage and organise things into functioning institutions and ecosystems, and with those who are competent taking leadership roles and providing long-term planning, goals and direction. Everyone must be on board and you need highly skilled individuals, and for that you need high quality internationally competitive universities producing a large number of yearly STEM graduates, then add them into the ecosystem.

We need investment into our education, from low-level to university level urgently. At the very least Pakistan should top the Muslim countries in STEM papers including quality, then set higher targets.
 
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Exactly what I thought when I read it but seems it's just an incubator for start ups according to the interviews I saw, I don't think it's going to produce anything significant like Azm, although it seems like a mini ecosystem is starting to be built.

Nspire brings people with ideas, helps them set things up and connects them with Air University and PAC Kamra. And this ecosystem is hosted at the NASTP which is part of ACP and supposedly hosts requires facilities.


View attachment 913918
View attachment 913926View attachment 913923

View attachment 913924

Yaar I've seen these fancy buildings before. We are excellent at buildings. To me NASTP is just PAFs attempt to get in on the decent army led NSTP. Why they feel the need to make an entirely parallel setup and that too INSIDE an airforce base is beyond me. You can imagine the kind of startup culture you can create inside an airforce base lol. At least NSTP is inside NUST and not some base.

I've been given presentations on this and aviation city and air university etc. They are just plans for buildings upon buildings and vague ideas with buzzwords thrown in like "technopark" "startup". If you try to scratch the surface you see how hollow all of this really is.


I mean we should all be asking what are these companies that are to be in NASTP working for? Which projects? Local? International? Where's the money for these projects coming from? What industrial base will support these startups? With the venture capitalist boom over (that basically played a big part in NSTP's success) where is the investment coming from? Malik Riaz?lol


We are a real estate obsessed nation and it is no surprise that our babus think "make the buildings, the progress will come"۔

Fancy buildings using DHA experience : Check

Actual competence in leading a project of this magnitude: Not check

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Yup my point exactly. What a stupid concept to put a technology park inside an airforce base at the whims of scority obsessed morons.
 
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Yaar I've seen these fancy buildings before. We are excellent at buildings. To me NASTP is just PAFs attempt to get in on the decent army led NSTP. Why they feel the need to make an entirely parallel setup and that too INSIDE an airforce base is beyond me. You can imagine the kind of startup culture you can create inside an airforce base lol. At least NSTP is inside NUST and not some base.

I've been given presentations on this and aviation city and air university etc. They are just plans for buildings upon buildings and vague ideas with buzzwords thrown in like "technopark" "startup". If you try to scratch the surface you see how hollow all of this really is.


I mean we should all be asking what are these companies that are to be in MADTP working for? Which projects? Local? International? Where's the money for these projects coming from? What industrial base will support these startups? With the venture capitalist boom over (that basically played a big part in NSTP's success) where is the investment coming from? Malik Riaz?lol


We are a real estate obsessed nation and it is no surprise that our babus think "make the buildings, the progress will come"۔
Explains why I was confused seeing a very similar set-up in NUST, pretty much even has the same name


I guess @Erieye pretty much explained everything clearly; boomer mentality and absolutely no organisation or planning whatsoever...

Just random individuals with some power having ideas and starting it unilaterally with no real structure/direction... It will probably be a dead project when the new air chief comes in
 
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Yup my point exactly. What a stupid concept to put a technology park inside an airforce base at the whims of scority obsessed morons.
We are a nation with so much dormant potential, i've met quite intelligent dedicated people but the toxic culture the boomer leadership carries never allows it to flourish

Once we have a positive cultural change where we value those with skill and proper structure that's when we will see results - and that's one of the main differences between us and Turkey (including how they invest more in quality education too)
 
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Just random individuals with some power having ideas and starting it unilaterally with no real structure/direction... It will probably be a dead project when the new air chief comes in
Funny how you can basically say this about most things in Pakistan - just replace air chief with your favorite head lol.
 
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Project azm has failed and a new road map is there (NASTP)
I have several questions in my mind.

What we can learn from project Azm 's failure?
What not to repeat in NASTP?or
What not to do while building a base for weapons industry? Or even any other industry?

While i will blame over ambitious aims,overall economic situation of country for it's failure,what you guys think about it?
Write down some comprehensive note on it.

Thanks in advance.
In short, i think: Money

Blues + whites try hard (“top” to bottom) to keep defence of the country strong from aggression, khaki (tops) put it everything at risk for there greed and then quickly hide behind there jawans and low rank officers.

E. G. We have the example of Mirages, cannibalising + importing decades old to cannibalise.
 
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Neutrals with no idea how to uphold functioning instituions and organisations.

If neutrals had a brain they would have been the Pakistan military version of the CCP. But they too egotistical and love the luxurious lifestyle using public money. Two problems in 1, can't do the job they are attempting to AND they're corrupt = failed society.
 
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Project azm has failed and a new road map is there (NASTP)
I have several questions in my mind.

What we can learn from project Azm 's failure?
What not to repeat in NASTP?or
What not to do while building a base for weapons industry? Or even any other industry?

While i will blame over ambitious aims,overall economic situation of country for it's failure,what you guys think about it?
Write down some comprehensive note on it.

Thanks in advance.


Sometimes i wonder what we got by twerking for USA.

Look at South Korea
Got independence at same time as us
They're also asians like us.
Have fierce enemy and continuous threat of war and invasion.
They're also US allies.

Look where are they now and look at ourselves.

Look at their defence Industry .
KF-21 K-2 panther KSS-III KDX-III FA-50

We have been fed wrong propaganda by Pakistan Military whole time.

Not even korea look at all the US Allie in Asia Aussies Israel Singapore japan Sauidia
Our generals only filled their own pockets with dollars instead of developing country.
 
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Project azm has failed and a new road map is there (NASTP)
I have several questions in my mind.

What we can learn from project Azm 's failure?
What not to repeat in NASTP?or
What not to do while building a base for weapons industry? Or even any other industry?

While i will blame over ambitious aims,overall economic situation of country for it's failure,what you guys think about it?
Write down some comprehensive note on it.

Thanks in advance.
Main reason of failure... Once someone placed own self, own ego first instead of the greater good.
 
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Supposedly, we would continued the project and pulled it off by borrowing billions of dollars and pouring into it. Then what ? PAF would only induct a squadron or 2 maximum by next decade given the extreme cost of these aircrafts. So it was no feasible anyway unless you have export plans. The chances of successful exports were not very bright as South Korean, Chinese, Turkish options have appeared in addition to American ones.

IMO, Pakistan should focus on indigenous UCAVs. We should focus on select few areas and be master of those. Better to be master of one then jack of all. We need to work on such indigenous projects on which we could grab maximum share on export market to make it sustainable.
 
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Neutrals with no idea how to uphold functioning instituions and organisations.

If neutrals had a brain they would have been the Pakistan military version of the CCP. But they too egotistical and love the luxurious lifestyle using public money. Two problems in 1, can't do the job they are attempting to AND they're corrupt = failed society.
It's not brains issue.
They have brains.

It's goal issue

Neutrals goal is to settle in Canada
CCP goal is to stay in country no one is allowed to leave the country.
 
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Sometimes i wonder what we got by twerking for USA.

Look at South Korea
Got independence at same time as us
They're also asians like us.
Have fierce enemy and continuous threat of war and invasion.
They're also US allies.

Look where are they now and look at ourselves.

Look at their defence Industry .
KF-21 K-2 panther KSS-III KDX-III FA-50

We have been fed wrong propaganda by Pakistan Military whole time.

Not even korea look at all the US Allie in Asia Aussies Israel Singapore japan Sauidia
Our generals only filled their own pockets with dollars instead of developing country.
You can ask the US Army to build a military base in Islamabad.

Agreed with the US general commanding the Pakistani army.

Grant extraterritoriality to American soldiers.

Like S.Korea.
 
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Project azm has failed and a new road map is there (NASTP)
I have several questions in my mind.

What we can learn from project Azm 's failure?
What not to repeat in NASTP?or
What not to do while building a base for weapons industry? Or even any other industry?

While i will blame over ambitious aims,overall economic situation of country for it's failure,what you guys think about it?
Write down some comprehensive note on it.

Thanks in advance.
Something to think about:
Once JF-17 Block 3 numbers are produced most of PAC AMF is going to be idle. It is a huge setup and the PAF really really wants it not to sit idle in a couple of years.

A few people (including the airchief at that time) thought the solution to this problem (being a solution to the future fighter problem too) was to develop our own FGFA. I am sorry to say this but these folks were out of touch with reality. There was this other person too that still believes (or at least tells everyone that he does) that FGFA was a realistic goal for PAF.

To develop an aircraft is a herculean task. Remember Pakistan did NOT develop the JF-17, it only manufactures it. It takes a LOT of expertise in engineering and a tonne of huge facilities to develop and certify an aircraft. Its a ridiculously expensive and labour intensive process that no way Pakistan could afford for the JF-17 or any other aircraft.

Then, the design of an aircraft - especially a modern aircraft - is so utterly complex and multidimensional that it takes thousands of experts to even begin a design. Remember, I am only talking about design - not development, which is when you do structural tests and certifications and what not.

Now what did PAF have? A handful of PhDs in aerodynamics and structures maybe. And just because these people have PhDs does not mean that they are the right people. These are PAF officers with PhDs that have gotten PhDs at some points during their careers. Their "real-world" experience is aircraft maintenance of PAF fighters and their overhaul and teaching students at CAE Risalpur. This does NOT qualify them to design and build aircraft. A PhD at lockheed martin who has worked his entire life on F-16s and F-18s design and development is not the same as some PAF PhD teaching undergraduate classes at CAE. What industry do we have to train the workforce for an aircraft program???

So what was Azm? It was a conceptual design. This means that its shape was being finalized with some very very basic ideas of subsystems. Since you can do CFD with computers and dont need much investment or skill, that's all AvRID was doing. CFD and CFD and CFD. And that's all we saw. It looks cool in pictures and videos and the forum was impressed. I told you guys last year that they hadn't done a single wind tunnel test.

And obviously an aircraft is not just aerodynamics. It's structures, it's fuel systems, it's hydraulics, its radars, its ECM, its sensors, its sensor fusion, its electronics, its power electronics, its materials, its composites, its manufacturing design, the list is huge. You need subject matter experts on hundreds of fields and then they need to have teams of their own. Not some PAF Babus with inflated egos because they have PhDs and the sum of their experience is teaching undergraduate courses in Pakistan.

I have seen Azm. I have seen what Azm is right now. Very closely. It would not be too inaccurate to liken it to the Agha Waqar waterkit story. People who were either evil or delusional or both were taking a naive nation on a ride.


If you want to see how you build a fighter aircraft look at Turkish Aerospace. Look how many years they spent developing facilities. Worked on actual aircraft programs like the F-16, A-400M, C-130, S-70. They developed huge facilities for certification. They integrated themselves into international supply chains. PAC Kamra is a joke in front of Turkish Aerospace. PAC Kamra has no relationships with the world and has to smuggle (for lack of a better word) half their inputs. TA spent decades developing skills and manpower in a SUSTAINABLE manner - that is they always had the next 2 or 3 projects lined up for their engineers to work on. They went from strength to strength. They started with Hurkus. We just bought Saab Safari and have done an abysmal amount of work on it considering the time weve had it for. They then worked on Hurjet. We had the K8 and just did nothing with it. Now they are working on TFX and we had the shitshow that was Azm. You can almost make a one-to-one comparison on what to do and what not to do.

Anyway, this rant is long enough already. It's just that "afsos hota hai yaar" - because I'm here picking up the pieces of the practical joke on Pakistan that was Azm.



Guess what the latest thinking is? Remember that issue with the AMF going dormant? Now they are trying by hook and crook to get the TFX to use AMF in some capacity. The good thing about this interaction of PAC and TA is that PAF will realize how outdated they are and how their hubris doesn't align at all with their capacity. I hope PAC gets it what it wants. I don't want it to lose the last chance they have to catch up with the real world.
 
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