what is the relationship between Afghan and Pak?

[Awaaz]

Also the police change the uniform cuz that uniform is a symbol of corruption, recruit younger dedicated people and pay them will give them support and finance to develop and provide justice and security to the masses.

In order to bring security to the country we need to start with reviewing our system and institutions and see how much faith public has in them and what we can do to improve them.

Get rid of bribery and corruption and Insha Allah everything will fall in place.

 

[Omar1984]

We would like to see pakistani milatry reprsenting atleast 20 percent of pushtoons and 20 percent of balochs and all the remainder from all other groups.

Pashtoons I understand, but Baloch only make up 3.5% of Pakistan's total population....20% is a high percentage for such a small ethnic group.

Well for me all Pakistanis are Pakistanis regardless of ethnic groups, I dont even pay attention to ethnic groups much, I just know Pakistanis and I would love to see all areas of Pakistan developed and all Pakistanis living together happily and everyone getting their fair share, but it gets me angry when I hear people saying FATA/NWFP only belongs to Pashtoons, Balochistan belongs only to Baloch... you never hear Punjabis saying Punjab only belongs to Punjab or Sindhis saying Sindh only belongs to Sindhis...we say all provinces of Pakistan belongs to every Pakistani citizen. The original inhabitants of Karachi were Sindhis and now they are a minority with more Pashtoons in the city than Sindhis, but you never hear Sindhis complaining.

Khair, we all are Pakistanis every Pakistani should be treated equally, and every Pakistani must work hard to make a better life for themselves in Pakistan.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

as far as I know, pashtuns represent 30%+ of the army alone. that number is increasing due to the new policy of conscripting an equal amount of troops from each province. The frontier corps (FC)-basically another unnofficial hand of the army-is 90% pashtun. There are significant amount of pashtuns in the air force and navy as well. However, the ISI is practically 'run' by pashtuns (hint: if pashtuns weren't dominating the ISI, we wouldn't have an afghanistan policy to began with). it's only balochis and sindhis who are a minority in the armed forces as a whole.

The DG ISI is just a figurehead, he only oversees where the agency is going as a whole. The agency consists of many departments, heads, thousands of agents, diplomats and analysts who in turn send field reports upwards towards the heads of their departments. Those heads supervise each of their departments and eventually report back to the DG ISI. It's an extremely efficient agency, and has reach all over the world. that includes mostly south asia, afghanistan and central asia, china, europe, and even the americas to some degree.

 

[Awaaz]

. it's only balochis and sindhis who are a minority in the armed forces as a whole.

Well then lets get their numbers up to a high level, if in balochistan balochs were fighting bla and other indian sponsored groups then you would see that these groups wont get far.

These groups will diminish as they will have no recruitment base, and people wont join to fight balochis who are in the security forces as it is difficult for them to do that.

I think balochs need to be recruited in higher numbers in to the army to help preserve equality and unity.

Same for sindhis.

 

[Omar1984]

. it's only balochis and sindhis who are a minority in the armed forces as a whole.

Well then lets get their numbers up to a high level, if in balochistan balochs were fighting bla and other indian sponsored groups then you would see that these groups wont get far.

These groups will diminish as they will have no recruitment base, and people wont join to fight balochis who are in the security forces as it is difficult for them to do that.

I think balochs need to be recruited in higher numbers in to the army to help preserve equality and unity.

Same for sindhis.

Yaara Punjabis and Pashtoons are the two largest ethnic groups in Pakistan, the Sindhis and Baloch are the smaller ethnic groups... the smallest ethnic group in Pakistan are Baloch who make up only 3.5% of Pakistan's total population...of that population how many are willing to join the Pakistani army?
Its not anyone's fault Baloch are smallest ethnic group, theres 8 million Baloch in Pakistan and not all 8 million live in Balochistan province. Pakistan's total population is 172 million. Baloch have always been smallest ethnic group, its not anyone's fault.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

what is the relationship between Afghan and Pak?in histroy,in culture,in language,in political.

would Afghan more likely to be integrated with Pak or Iran or otherwise.

I dont know whether it is appropriate to give reply to this old thread, but the question is interesting, couldnt help myself.
According to me Afghanistan's population is linguistically divided into three major groups,
1- Dari/farsi , mother tongue of atleast 50% population of afghanistan, spoken by tajiks, hazaras.
2- Pashto, an east iranian langauge, spoke by 42% Afghans.
3- turkic , spoken by uzbeks and turkmens.
Racially Pashtuns and tajiks are iranian people like kurds , balochs, ossetians etc so majority of afghan population would be described as indo-iranian...while hazaras, uzbeks, turkemens, aimaqs are turk-mongols.

Historically some parts of Afghanistan were parts of khorasan. Indigenous turks like Ghaznvis and ghauris once ruled afghanistan but are now completely absorbed into Pashtun and tajik populations...Central asian turks also ruled this region....so this area was always either ruled by iran or turan, untill hotaki pashtuns came into power in 1709.

Culturally it is close to north western Pakistan , Iran and central asia. Pashtuns are related to Pashtuns of KPK, FATA and Balochistan. Nooristanis are related to chitral. Balochs are related to Pakistan's balochistan. Dari speaking Afghans are close to iran but hazaras relate themselves more with iran due to shia faith. Turkmen, uzbeks and tajiks are related to respective ethnicities in central asia.

would Afghan more likely to be integrated with Pak or Iran or otherwise.

In my opinion they consider themselves distinct nation and neither would want to integrate their country with iran nor Pakistan.....

 

[Rizwan Alam]

They are independent, but our relation with Afghans should be like same we are having with China....

In punjab and sindh both Afhan Pushtoon and Pakistani Pushtoon are "Khans Sb" to us , nothing more

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

They should be part of Pakistan because Pashtuns are related to Afghans and Pashtuns are the second largest ethnic group in Pakistan, and there are more Pashtuns in Pakistan than the entire Afghanistan, but Karzai is anti-Pakistan so I dont know what will happen.

Pakistan was basically conceived for Hindustani muslims. Tribal people like pashtuns and balochs just ended up with British india when angraiz occupied their areas. Pakistan as a successor state of British india inherited these non-indic muslim regions.
Pashtuns of Pakistan are now only and only pakistanis, they have already lost their claim over title/idenity of Afghan, they are desi now. So your claim over Afghanistan on the basis of 14% pakistanized pashtuns of pakistan is actually funny....

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

They are independent, but our relation with Afghans should be like same we are having with China....

In punjab and sindh both Afhan Pushtoon and Pakistani Pushtoon are "Khans Sb" to us , nothing more

You are in Afghanistan? how is your experience there?

 

[Kompromat]

Pakistan was basically conceived for Hindustani muslims.

Wrong.

Tribal people like pashtuns and balochs just ended up with British india when angraiz occupied their areas. Pakistan as a successor state of British india inherited these non-indic muslim regions.

They chose it. - and stop using the term indic muslims, no such thing in history books exists nor does it have any anthropological value.

Pashtuns of Pakistan are now only and only pakistanis, they have already lost their claim over title/idenity of Afghan, they are desi now.

All of Pashtun culture is widely recognized, languages are taught there are no state imposed restrictions on Pashtuns about how they live their life. Pakistan is an ideology whosoever chooses to live by it. In order to build Pakistan into a culture of its own, it will take time and effort, as of now Pakistanis are living like a crowd not as a nation. They are busy in who is Muslim and who is Kafir, who is a little more white than the other one, and the pathetic genealogy debate based on racism and other crap like that..

So your claim over Afghanistan on the basis of 14% pakistanized pashtuns of pakistan is actually funny....

Pakistan has no claim over Afghanistan - as long as they get all of their refugees back and seal the border. Next afghans coming into Pakistan should go through proper IDs and Visa processes. We have had enough with the "Brotherhood" Syndrome.

You are in Afghanistan? how is your experience there?

The, issue with us and Afghanistan is political. No one in Pakistan hates Afghans, we helped them in the time of need even when we didn't have to. There is biases and resentment which can be overlooked or treated by better relations. The day Afghanistan realizes its geographic positioning it will realize how it should mean business with Pakistan.

 

[Rizwan Alam]

You are in Afghanistan? how is your experience there?

Its been almost a decade now, I spent 4 years in Jalalabad, 5 years in Kabul and I feel Pushtuns are friendly people they do not hate Pakistan or Pakistanis, they are more neutral but Dari (Persian)speakers, they are having serious issues with Pakistanis, although they do not openly oppose us but they do not like us either.

They have started realizing, if America leaves, they will not be welcomed in Pakistan and Iran.

Govt personnel are corrupt!! And the reason is, they still feel Afghanistan can not become a stable country and they need to earn as much as possible in quick time.

Their Army "ANA" no financially stable or literate family wish their sons to become a Fauji, You do not do anything, you can join Afghan national army. I wish to see people from upper class in their army which is not going to happen in near future. They know how to use weapons but they are not professionals.

Afghanistan is a heaven as far as natural beauty is concern, I do not wish to go Murree anymore, whole Afghanistan is Naran Kagha and Murre. You just google, I love their food, Kabuli Palao, Rosh, gosfand Yummy...

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Wrong.



They chose it. - and stop using the term indic muslims, no such thing in history books exists nor does it have any anthropological value.

No they did'nt choose it. They were given no choice but to choose between Pakistan and india, it should have been Afghanistan instead of India in the poll then i would have agreed with you that pashtuns choose pakistan over Afghanistan.....Elected provincial governament was deliberately ignored as
red shirts were in majority while in punjab, sindh and bengal (balochistan was not province at that time) provincial assemblies decided their fate.
But yes, between india and pakistan they choose pakistan with 51% votes. Pay special thanks to hazarewals whgo heavily voted in favour of pakistan.
And the term indic muslims may not have anthropological value but by indic muslims i mean all desi muslims from indus to bengal. If "indic" is so much offensive then i would use "desi muslims" from now on.

All of Pashtun culture is widely recognized, languages are taught there are no state imposed restrictions on Pashtuns about how they live their life. Pakistan is an ideology whosoever chooses to live by it. In order to build Pakistan into a culture of its own, it will take time and effort, as of now Pakistanis are living like a crowd not as a nation. They are busy in who is Muslim and who is Kafir, who is a little more white than the other one, and the pathetic genealogy debate based on racism and other crap like that..

No doubt about that, there are no cultural and linguistic restrictions on Pashtuns or any other ethnicity in Pakistan. If you read my words carefully then you would understand that i was saying, Pakistani pashtuns have no longer any connection to Afghan identity and they no longer have connection to Afghanistan. You would agree with me that Pakistani Pashtuns are pakistanis only, they are no longer afghans as today afghan means nationality of Afghanistan.
By the way what do you mean by " pakistani culture"? Do you mean urdu culture of delhi and UP?

Pakistan has no claim over Afghanistan - as long as they get all of their refugees back and seal the border. Next afghans coming into Pakistan should go through proper IDs and Visa processes. We have had enough with the "Brotherhood" Syndrome.

I agree with you on this but it is practically impossible, do you think shinwaris, mohmands, achakzais and other tribes living on either side of durand would agree to sealing of border and visa?.

The, issue with us and Afghanistan is political. No one in Pakistan hates Afghans, we helped them in the time of need even when we didn't have to. There is biases and resentment which can be overlooked or treated by better relations. The day Afghanistan realizes its geographic positioning it will realize how it should mean business with Pakistan.

I asked about experiences from rizwan alam, not you. If you have visited afghanistan then you are welcome to share your experiences about afghanistan.

 

[Kompromat]

No they did'nt choose it. They were given no choice but to choose between Pakistan and india, it should have been Afghanistan instead of India in the poll then i would have agreed with you that pashtuns choose pakistan over Afghanistan.....Elected provincial governament was deliberately ignored as
red shirts were in majority while in punjab, sindh and bengal (balochistan was not province at that time) provincial assemblies decided their fate.
But yes, between india and pakistan they choose pakistan with 51% votes. Pay special thanks to hazarewals whgo heavily voted in favour of pakistan.

If, Pashtun brethren had a leadership at that time, it was their job to make their choices clear instead of going down with the British division, no?

And the term indic muslims may not have anthropological value but by indic muslims i mean all desi muslims from indus to bengal. If "indic" is so much offensive then i would use "desi muslims" from now on.

You, didn't get my point. What i meant was that be it desi muslims or indic muslims, they are not the terms used in history or anthropology. Because they are not a homogenous group, there are 100s of different ethnicities, lingual, social and sub-social groups.So it is not the correct interpretation of history, its more of a factual error than anything else.

No doubt about that, there are no cultural and linguistic restrictions on Pashtuns or any other ethnicity in Pakistan. If you read my words carefully then you would understand that i was saying, Pakistani pashtuns have no longer any connection to Afghan identity and they no longer have connection to Afghanistan. You would agree with me that Pakistani Pashtuns are pakistanis only, they are no longer afghans as today afghan means nationality of Afghanistan.

That depends on how strong the Pashtun culture is. I, do give you the point that the D.line has changed the way Pashtuns have lived on both sides for centuries. The question now should be, how the current generation of young Pashtuns see themselves, and which side of D.Line, they would prefer to associate themselves with.

By the way what do you mean by " pakistani culture"? Do you mean urdu culture of delhi and UP?

You, didn't get my point at all. I said that current structure of Pakistan is more like a crowd made up of different social and linguistic groups learning to get on with life with each other. There is no such thing as a "Pakistani culture" as of now. It will take us a century to build. As for Urdu, its just a language which is needed commonly between different cultures of different language that they can communicate. In the 21st century, languages are becoming a source of commerce and capitalism than a culture. If it wasn't the case than all English speaking, Arabic speaking or Manderine speaking foreigners would have converted into the cultures of those languages which clearly is not true.

I agree with you on this but it is practically impossible, do you think shinwaris, mohmands, achakzais and other tribes living on either side of durand would agree to sealing of border and visa?.

I, clearly meant it in pure law and order related opinion. Ideally though, i would like to see an arrangement like this.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ak-cooperative-union-ultimate-peacemaker.html

I, see Pakistan's F.policy future should be towards Afghanistan and C.Asia instead of the Middle East.

I asked about experiences from rizwan alam, not you. If you have visited afghanistan then you are welcome to share your experiences about afghanistan.

I, was going to before 2001. Anyway, that was just an opinion.


Cheers

 

[Sher Malang]

Its been almost a decade now, I spent 4 years in Jalalabad, 5 years in Kabul and I feel Pushtuns are friendly people they do not hate Pakistan or Pakistanis, they are more neutral but Dari (Persian)speakers, they are having serious issues with Pakistanis, although they do not openly oppose us but they do not like us either.

They have started realizing, if America leaves, they will not be welcomed in Pakistan and Iran.

Pashtuns, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras etc.. all are friendly with the people of Pakistan they believe in the brotherhood with Pakistanis but all of them hate Pakistani government and ISI especially! Afghan Pashtuns solidarity with Pakistan is only about the Pashtuns of Pakistan takeout the Pashtuns of Pakistan and you will not get the same response from them regarding Pakistan.

Govt personnel are corrupt!! And the reason is, they still feel Afghanistan can not become a stable country and they need to earn as much as possible in quick time.

Govt personnel is not corrupt it's the system! anyone who is inside the system should become corrupt in one or another way! here corruption has no say about the stability of the country. Americans and Europeans are involved in big money corruption in Afghanistan does it also states their country's stability?

Their Army "ANA" no financially stable or literate family wish their sons to become a Fauji, You do not do anything, you can join Afghan national army. I wish to see people from upper class in their army which is not going to happen in near future. They know how to use weapons but they are not professionals.

ANSF is financial stable more than many neighboring countries do you know how much aid they got from last 3 years? they will be getting $4.6 blns for 10 more years confirmed! the echelons in the ANSF are all from the literate and wealthy families but the lower ranks are the from ordinary people - they are getting professional day by day for e.g compare the ANA commandos success with US marines!

 

[Rizwan Alam]

^ I simply put my own experience. And I never spoke about the Financial stability of ANSF rather I said, no financially stable family wants their child in Army, and again this is my personal experience. Regarding Pushtoon of Afghanistan, they feel more secure and calm when they are in Punjab or other provinces rather then KPK.