What does China want?

[Chinese-Dragon]

I beg to differ. Remember the sign "No dog and Chinese allowed" that was used in movie Fist of Fury to potray how Japanese and Westerners humiliated Chinese. China did have a similar sign in a Beijing restaurant a few year back "No dog, Vietnamese and Philippines allowed". I heard that your govt took that down within a few days, but the sign made it way to the internet. My point is that China does not want the world to suffer its loss in population, in property, but rather suffer the same humiliation that it went through. A while back I saw a thread in PDF named "Is Thailand 'Sick man of Asia'?". Same things happened there. It's like the selfishness nature of human: if I can't have it, you can't have it; if I am dieing you are dieing too.

No, that is not Chinese government policy.

Our official policy is 中國和平發展, and that is proven by our actions.

We have had no wars in the past 30 years, and we are not at war today. This will only change if someone is foolish enough to attack us.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

In my personal opinion, I do take issue with the article, especially the conclusion here:



This is untrue, and also impossible. We were on the receiving end of multiple genocides, how could we force the world to suffer the same wounds as we did? Only nuclear weapons could accomplish that, and that would lead to nuclear winter, so it is obviously not an option.

The Vietnamese here talk about the dangers of "Chinese nationalism", however as I pointed out... the Vietnamese nationalists recently rioted and killed several Chinese people in Vietnam.

But Chinese nationalists did not riot and kill Vietnamese in China? There are plenty of Vietnamese in China who could have been on the receiving end of retaliatory nationalist violence, but there were none.

The official policy of the Chinese government is "China's peaceful rise". Yes, our Century of Humiliation will never be forgotten, but the Chinese government is not responding with nukes and missiles and millions of soldiers. They are pursing China's peaceful development, just like their policy says.

There is plenty of cross-border bloodshed all over the world. But not here, the most that will happen here is someone getting sprayed with a water cannon.

I agree that the phrasing was a bit over the top, but I recognize a kernel of truth in it. As I said with @tranquilium , you and I have discussed this enough that I don't think we need to argue it out again, but I'll just restate here that the US had almost nothing to do with China's century of humiliation (COH). If China were looking back at the COH and concluding "never again," I would understand. If China were looking back at the COH and concluding "we need to get revenge on Europe, Russia, and Japan," I would understand. What I don't understand is this:

My analysis uses facts and logic. You are arguing about what India could be tomorrow, by their growth rate of 4% (combined with where they are now) it doesn't seem like much. I think you are too overconfident in India, to expect them to grow at a sustained 10% in the future, frankly that is extremely unlikely. Only China has ever sustained that kind of growth rate for three decades, we are the only ones in history to have done that.

I'm more worried about what America is today, and the threat they pose to China today. Not just their 11 carrier battle groups which can be used to blockade us, but their control over the dollar-dominated global financial system, which they have already used to lock out Iran, and soon Russia.

Do you know how much of our trade and investment uses dollars? If they can do it to Russia, why not to us? Do you know we depend on sea-routes for our resources and trade?

This is a real and current danger. We need to promote the Yuan as a global currency, and promote alternative non-dollar payment systems like our own UnionPay.

Hence the CPC policy, to increase cooperation with the BRICS, and to set up the BRICS bank. The CPC understands the real threats to China, and their policies are designed to protect China and further our interests. Anyone who is not in the American camp, and who is not an American vassal state, can be a part of our multi-polar world initiative, and frankly we need everyone we can get, to start using the Yuan. The BRICS are only the beginning.

Source: China Invites India to Join its Ambitious Silk Road Projects | Page 5

I'll admit, since you're one of my favorite users here, I was shocked to read this. That's a level of hostility that history doesn't warrant. Only what I will call an "aggressive victimhood" could justify such an attitude ("they may not have been an enemy in the past, but we're sure to be next!"), and if it can justify such hostility to the US (which I have repeatedly pointed out has been about as benevolent, or at least neutral, to China as any nation can expect), what can't China's COH justify? That's what I was hinting at in my post to @tranquilium . It's a terrifying thought.

That was the crux of the article with which I found myself in agreement. I hope it doesn't come true, but since we are not able to truly understand what China wants, it's something we must be aware of as a possible outcome. Perhaps I over-analyze your comments, or unfairly use you as a proxy for China, but it's especially worrisome in comments like this:

I don't get why these foreigners have to use our country to solve THEIR problems. They should learn to solve their own problems, everyone knows that China's official policy is non-interference (不干涉内政), and it will remain that way until we become a proper developed country.

Source: China Invites India to Join its Ambitious Silk Road Projects | Page 3

What happens when China feels it is sufficiently developed (and powerful)?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

@Chinese-Dragon

I do hope that the Indians who happen to practice the Islamic faith can see through religious lines -- and find solidarity with their fellow Indian citizens. An economically vibrant and prosperous India will be of benefit to everyone, i think. They are a large market for Chinese consumer goods. And i think it is possible to have nations with nationalist leaders -- promoting regional peace and stability.

This beidou character is a nuisance troll that is breeding dissent. I'm beginning to think that he is doing this in purpose.

not when a guy under whose authority 2-3 K muslims were massacred n an ancient mosque destroyed... google gujrat riot or see the pics.. or even the new controversies the hindu hardline (BJP n its affiliates) party has been getting into..

 

[Kyle Sun]

a genuine (not fake) japanese would have felt ashamed, angered for this. show me a single foreign soldier who dares commit such crimes on the soil of china. you can't, thats what freedom and sovereignty stand for, i don't know you understand what freedom and sovereignty mean, your dictionary may have different meaning for them, not mine. i won't make it complex by referring to saussurian semiology but i can tell you, those rapes are more than rapes and they have much deeper symbolic meaning which some get and some don't

Do not hurt his feeling that hard.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What happens when China feels it is sufficiently developed (and powerful)?

Then our goal will be complete. We gave up spreading ideology a long time ago (like America with Democracy or Soviets with Communism), now our major ideology is pragmatism.

Like Sun Tzu said, the best thing to do is to "win without fighting". And that is the most pragmatic course of action, we will win by economic strength. And winning means guaranteeing our sovereignty against foreign interference.

That's a level of hostility that history doesn't warrant. Only what I will call an "aggressive victimhood" could justify such an attitude ("they may not have been an enemy in the past, but we're sure to be next!"), and if it can justify such hostility to the US (which I have repeatedly pointed out has been about as benevolent, or at least neutral, to China as any nation can expect), what can't China's COH justify? That's what I was hinting at in my post to @tranquilium . It's a terrifying thought.

This is pragmatism.

America is the only country in the world that can cut us off from the dollar dominated global financial system, the way they already did to Iran, and the way they are trying to do Russia right now.

America is the only country in the world that can choke our vital sea routes for trade and resources.

In realpolitik, geopolitics is not about ideology and intentions, but relative power, and other practical factors.

America sanctioned Russia, who is to say they will not sanction China next? We refuse to play by American rules, in fact America still has an active Arms embargo against us. No Chinese leader is willing to leave the fate of our nation at the mercy of a foreign power, and that's why we are pushing for the globalization of the Yuan (to counter possible sanctions), and inducting the DF-21D carrier killer, soon with HGV technology (which will allow us to sink carriers at will even halfway across the planet).

This is how we will protect our sovereignty against external threats. Peace is maintained through strength. We have seen what happens to China when we are weak.

And we will never forget it:

This is not hatred for others, but love for our motherland. And a duty to never let it happen again.

That is what the Vietnamese author of the article failed to understand. He could read the characters, but could not put himself in our shoes to understand it.

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

Then our goal will be complete. We gave up spreading ideology a long time ago (like America with Democracy or Soviets with Communism), now our major ideology is pragmatism.

Like Sun Tzu said, the best thing to do is to "win without fighting". And that is the most pragmatic course of action, we will win by economic strength. And winning means guaranteeing our sovereignty against foreign interference.



This is pragmatism.

America is the only country in the world that can cut us off from the dollar dominated global financial system, the way they already did to Iran, and the way they are trying to do Russia right now.

America is the only country in the world that can choke our vital sea routes for trade and resources.

In realpolitik, geopolitics is not about ideology and intentions, but relative power, and other practical factors.

America sanctioned Russia, who is to say they will not sanction China next? We refuse to play by American rules, in fact America still has an active Arms embargo against us. No Chinese leader is willing to leave the fate of our nation at the mercy of a foreign power, and that's why we are pushing for the globalization of the Yuan (to counter possible sanctions), and inducting the DF-21D carrier killer, soon with HGV technology (which will allow us to sink carriers at will even halfway across the planet).

This is how we will protect our sovereignty against external threats. Peace is maintained through strength. We have seen what happens to China when we are weak.

And we will never forget it:

Understood, but as we've discussed before, China and the US are locked in a symbiotic relationship, and neither of us can harm the other without simultaneously doing great damage to ourselves.

2013, Trade in goods, (Volume, USD)
US-Russia: $38 bn
US-China: $562 bn

What is possible with Russia is not possible with China--not by economics, and not by military action. You know it. We know it. The only lever that the US still possesses (if China even cares) is diplomacy, with China's actions pushing its neighbors into our arms. But other than that, I would say that China is already untouchable in the same way that the USSR was. Why does China still feel threatened by the US?

Anyway, please consider it a rhetorical question. We've been through this discussion enough times that I'm quite sure we're beating the horse's skeleton at this point.

 

[Avik274]

Yeh by making slow and steady progress peacefully. I would love to see this kind of bullying by China.

Go China go

Obviously as you are china's pet & one day you will regret...

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What is possible with Russia is not possible with China--not by economics, and not by military action. You know it. We know it. The only lever that the US still possesses (if China even cares) is diplomacy, with China's actions pushing its neighbors into our arms. But other than that, I would say that China is already untouchable in the same way that the USSR was. Why does China still feel threatened by the US?

Anyway, please consider it a rhetorical question. We've been through this discussion enough times that I'm quite sure we're beating the horse's skeleton at this point.

I'm not sure if I do know it though.

If China were to take back Taiwan tomorrow for instance, the possibility of American sanctions against us would be around 95% by my estimation. The other 5% would probably be hesitation due to shock.

You may have heard we were conducting massive drills across the whole of China recently, disrupting many airports and flights. It would be foolish of us not to prepare for the eventuality of something bad happening, and the world can change very quickly.

Maybe Ma Ying-jeou will have a change of heart and suddenly push for Taiwanese independence? Who knows? Crazier things have happened in the past year, maybe even the past week. Who saw ISIS coming for example.

 

[xunzi]

You are the Chinese mem I have been waiting for in this thread. Most others are like TL;DR or just blatanly say this article is just another anti-China propaganda.
Like you said China is building up military power, I see it as a sign of China insecure. China feels uncomfortable with US making friends with its neighboring countries and creating an invisible barier around China. It's alright for China to be cautious against US. US and the West might want a powerful China, but not powerful enough to challange their rules over the world order. And with power comes ambition. China can't use US in the 19-20th century as a comparision because 1 word: globalization. No one was around with power to judge, to contain US when they took total control of America. China has US around to do it now.
"Chinese dream" is for the good of Chinese only. I have no problem with that. However when Chinese dream get bigger and bigger, it starts crushing dreams of others, starting by those close to China. Is China at fault? No, that's my personal belief. But those whose dreams are being crushed by China should have the right to fight back. They are also not wrong. They are fighting against the odd, fighting against the tide.
So China should take an easy look at VN and Philippines. The conflict happens because each country tries to protect its interest.

We are insecure? Insecure about what ? Insecure that the US makes friend with our neighbors? Do the US feel insecure if we make friend with Latin America? Like I said, The US has every right to create invisible barrier and we have every right to break it out. Let remember, we are the hunter and the US is the one being hunted. The job of hunter is to seek opportunity and catch prey while the one hunted job is to keep staying ahead. In the 19th-20th century, the British/Spain try to contain the US rise. The US counteract that by using use European powers keep Britain busy.

It is not our job for anyone dream, that including "Vietnamese Dream". As a smaller power, it is your job to accommodate and "fit" in with the "Chinese Dream". You are right that you have every right to do what's best for your country and we have every right to do what's best for us. Why are we the one being criticized for doing what's best for us? Make no sense.

 

[Avik274]

Yeh by making slow and steady progress peacefully. I would love to see this kind of bullying by China.

Go China go

Forcefully claiming sea water,others land & forcing other religion to disobey their ritual is not the way to peace..

 

[Spring Onion]

Obviously as you are china's pet & one day you will regret...

Mind your language bharati.

China is not India .India loves this word bullying and try harder to adopt it but you failed whereas China continued making its way to world market as an American member here just said that both US-China are in a relation which is more stronger based on mutual interests whether they like it or not but its the reality so there is no question of bullying

Forcefully claiming sea water,others land

India is doing the same. so whats the difference ?

& forcing other religion to disobey their ritual is not the way to peace..

They are not imposing it on the world but within their own country and India and some other countries doing the same

 

[LeveragedBuyout]

I'm not sure if I do know it though.

If China were to take back Taiwan tomorrow for instance, the possibility of American sanctions against us would be around 95% by my estimation. The other 5% would probably be hesitation due to shock.

Anything is possible, of course, but I actually predict the following:

1) China's leadership will not invade Taiwan, and instead wait for Taiwan to fall into its lap as the systems of PRC and ROC converge and China's gravitational pull proves irresistible.
2) Even in the remote possibility that China invades Taiwan, there will be a lot of screaming and little action by the US, as no action is practicable (as I said, we would gut our supply chain in the process).
3) Number 2 is why I believe Number 1 is the likely outcome, since China's supply chain is intensively integrated with Taiwan's.
4) The only other outcome is world war as China's other neighbors scramble to make sure they aren't next. At that point, economic sanctions are the least of China's worries (and the least of the US as well).

I simply don't see how economic sanctions are possible with the trade volumes at stake. China hasn't invaded Taiwan not because it fears US sanctions, but rather because it doesn't need to.

 

[Avik274]

Mind your language bharati.

China is not India .India loves this word bullying and try harder to adopt it but you failed whereas China continued making its way to world market as an American member here just said that both US-China are in a relation which is more stronger based on mutual interests whether they like it or not but its the reality so there is no question of bullying



India is doing the same. so whats the difference ?



They are not imposing it on the world but within their own country and India and some other countries doing the same

Its not a wonder why India has same problem with only you two....Puppy with a owner!!

 

[xunzi]

Then our goal will be complete. We gave up spreading ideology a long time ago (like America with Democracy or Soviets with Communism), now our major ideology is pragmatism.

Like Sun Tzu said, the best thing to do is to "win without fighting". And that is the most pragmatic course of action, we will win by economic strength. And winning means guaranteeing our sovereignty against foreign interference.



This is pragmatism.

America is the only country in the world that can cut us off from the dollar dominated global financial system, the way they already did to Iran, and the way they are trying to do Russia right now.

America is the only country in the world that can choke our vital sea routes for trade and resources.

In realpolitik, geopolitics is not about ideology and intentions, but relative power, and other practical factors.

America sanctioned Russia, who is to say they will not sanction China next? We refuse to play by American rules, in fact America still has an active Arms embargo against us. No Chinese leader is willing to leave the fate of our nation at the mercy of a foreign power, and that's why we are pushing for the globalization of the Yuan (to counter possible sanctions), and inducting the DF-21D carrier killer, soon with HGV technology (which will allow us to sink carriers at will even halfway across the planet).

This is how we will protect our sovereignty against external threats. Peace is maintained through strength. We have seen what happens to China when we are weak.

And we will never forget it:

This is not hatred for others, but love for our motherland. And a duty to never let it happen again.

That is what the Vietnamese author of the article failed to understand. He could read the characters, but could not put himself in our shoes to understand it.

Bravo! Couldn't say it any better for the Chinese people thought!

 

[xunzi]

Anything is possible, of course, but I actually predict the following:

1) China's leadership will not invade Taiwan, and instead wait for Taiwan to fall into its lap as the systems of PRC and ROC converge and China's gravitational pull proves irresistible.
2) Even in the remote possibility that China invades Taiwan, there will be a lot of screaming and little action by the US, as no action is practicable (as I said, we would gut our supply chain in the process).
3) Number 2 is why I believe Number 1 is the likely outcome, since China's supply chain is intensively integrated with Taiwan's.
4) The only other outcome is world war as China's other neighbors scramble to make sure they aren't next. At that point, economic sanctions are the least of China's worries (and the least of the US as well).

I simply don't see how economic sanctions are possible with the trade volumes at stake. China hasn't invaded Taiwan not because it fears US sanctions, but rather because it doesn't need to.

Taiwan can maintain its status however long they want. The moment it is declared independence, we will attack. It is under our constitution to respond. There is only 3 outcomes for Taiwan.

1. reunify with China peacefully
2. declare independence and go to war with China
3. maintain status quo for the foreseeable future.

#3 is easy to say but very hard to accomplish. As you may already know, a different regime in power can take Taiwan on the path of Independence. The Green Party, DPP, Chen Shui-bian almost took Taiwan that path until pressure by the US to stop. We almost ready to attack it had it not for the US to reign in and stop them. There is no guarantee there won't be another "Chen Shui-bian" in Taiwan again and it is why we have a few missiles point at it.