What an Indian saw inside the Pakistan Army headquarters

[Hellfire]

We need a Op-Force "Safron Corp" in the Pakistan Army. Not of the actual troops on a day to day basis, but the officers. From lowest commissioned officers and NCOs, all the way up to generals and even a mock Indian Army Chief, played by one of our corp commanders. They would eat, sleep, live as the Indians do. The goal would be to understand how the enemy thinks. As a rotating position (for at least 1-1.5 years) in an Army officers career, into and out of this flag officer force, it would be the best way to get into the mind set of the enemy. Going through this kind of training would also teach junior officers the differences between the enemy's bark and its actual bite. This would also be great for Psychological and Intelligence forces.

Dear @FuturePAF

The response is exclusively to your post here, and may please be read only in the context of your post here.

Your assumption that the above is not happening, may not be entirely justified. The basic structure of the forces, including the rules and regulations, remain the same. You have the system available to you and you know it quite well. Having said that, every nation's armed forces build up a Psychological Profile of the opposing forces' leadership, in addition to the doctrines and ORBAT revisions as applicable.

Every officer of the opposing force is tracked and profiled to the best of own abilities, especially the one's deemed to be the 'rising stars'. Often, a professional profile can also be beefed up by the officers authoring various articles/papers in various professional periodicals/pamphlets in addition to getting the general impression by means of 'low grade intelligence' i.e. reputation in troops, subordinates and peers. Be rest assured, your forces are doing the same. You can take a cue from the reports of 'spies' being caught on and off in Indian media.

Having said that, the biggest challenge remains in not only acknowledging your relative weaknesses and strengths, but also sensitizing the same to your junior leadership, thereby, creating a class of leadership across the forces at all levels, that are sensitized to your handicaps, understand your strengths and are able to work with the information as available, without presuming, assuming or appreciating capabilities/situations that may remain of dubious credibility.

A war is prosecuted with the Leadership (the political aspect and the masters of raison d'etre of the war), the Armed Forces and the Population, in complete sync with each other and undertaking all necessary actions towards a common objective. If you were to just go around PDF itself, you shall be able to appreciate the problem that you face - a dissonance between what is and what is being projected. The gap, if I may, is quite disconcerting to note.

@MastanKhan has been very categorical over certain aspects in his first post on this thread. While he has taken an example of PAF and emphasized on the differences between PAF and IAF, if you were to take a step back and appreciate all the aspects that support a successful prosecution of war, you would be able to appreciate the situation more clearly.

No amount of Psy-Ops yields dividends, if it creates an environment of misinformation for those who need to be working in conjunction with each other to achieve a satisfactory outcome.

Thanks

Hi,

Why do you think I pushed for pak military to go to Yemen---. It could have created 8-10 divisions of battle groups---comprising of ground---air and naval units---

Your rationale has some logic, but it, the decision to not send in your troops, remains one of the most sensible decisions undertaken in recent memory. You have adequate combat experience being gained by troops in various restive regions of the country.

I disagree. Yemen is a political war where actually "winning" by Saudis would be to manage the Shia Yemenis like Shia Saudis. Getting involved in that political mess is a can of worms that would have caused blow back in Pakistan.

Every war is the result of a desire to achieve political objectives that are not achieved through a diplomatic/political engagement. But, like I said earlier, remains a very sensible decision. The question is, till when will Saudi Arabia remain okay in not calling in the markers?

In karachi we got ppl from every corner of india.

We have a Goan Gentlemen's Club for fksks.

Can you extrapolate it to the idea as being espoused by the member?

 

[Joe Shearer]

All I needed to do was go away for a couple of hours, and this clutch of outstanding comments arises?

Is there a message in this somewhere?

 

[Hellfire]

The only thing that will work is to open Kashmir border for people to move onvboth sides on day passes. Start trade in a manner which suits both countries. Eat from what is good produce of the others. Let sleeping Joe shearers wake up and preach the song of humanity. We can aurvive on that and a bit of bhang . HAAA haa. However let the people movd rather than the armies or the corrupt polity on both sides. Unfortunately too much of cow dung has infested the minds of people on both sides. Humanity has been crushed in favour of right is might and acting like animals is more macho. So while there is stunted growth lack of basic amenities and health care to the masses and education is considered pariah, let bigotry and idiocy rule on. We will be lsd to the slaughter house soon enough by the greed of others. Paklands may have broken one shackle but will Indoland rise above the their petty thinking and think of less war and more trade.
A

Couple of points:

1. Why limit to Kashmir alone? Why not extend to the whole of border with multiple points enabling flow of goods, services and people, thereby enabling a better understanding, better prosperity and time to strengthen the same which can actually lead to settlement of outstanding issues?

2. For trade, what stops Pakistan from granting MFN to India? There are lots of items that Pakistan can actually export just over the border rather than anywhere else in the world.

3. Would not giving peace a chance in valley, wherein a Kashmiri can get educated, work to earn the proverbial bread for his family and hope for peace and prosperity be a better policy to look after the interests of the Kashmiris as opposed to continuation of strife wherein bandhs of days at a stretch are called for by the separatists, thereby leaving the poor Kashmiri no choice but to wield a gun or a rock, to earn money to feed his family?

4. Do you not think that maybe what we see in Europe today, as a result of socio-economic development and prosperity, can be replicated in our context?

All I needed to do was go away for a couple of hours, and this clutch of outstanding comments arises?

Is there a message in this somewhere?

Sir.

It was your tag, so came. Yes, the member has a refreshing approach. Let me tag @saiyan0321 , @salarsikander and @RAMPAGE too

Regards

 

[Joe Shearer]

Couple of points:

1. Why limit to Kashmir alone? Why not extend to the whole of border with multiple points enabling flow of goods, services and people, thereby enabling a better understanding, better prosperity and time to strengthen the same which can actually lead to settlement of outstanding issues?

2. For trade, what stops Pakistan from granting MFN to India? There are lots of items that Pakistan can actually export just over the border rather than anywhere else in the world.

3. Would not giving peace a chance in valley, wherein a Kashmiri can get educated, work to earn the proverbial bread for his family and hope for peace and prosperity be a better policy to look after the interests of the Kashmiris as opposed to continuation of strife wherein bandhs of days at a stretch are called for by the separatists, thereby leaving the poor Kashmiri no choice but to wield a gun or a rock, to earn money to feed his family?

4. Do you not think that maybe what we see in Europe today, as a result of socio-economic development and prosperity, can be replicated in our context?




Sir.

It was your tag, so came. Yes, the member has a refreshing approach. Let me tag @saiyan0321 , @salarsikander and @RAMPAGE too

Regards

Yes, yes.

This is the kind of discussion that rejuvenates my jaded and disillusioned synapses and leads me to believe for a few, blissful moments that the universe works, after all.

Bless all of you.

 

[FuturePAF]

Dear @FuturePAF

The response is exclusively to your post here, and may please be read only in the context of your post here.

Your assumption that the above is not happening, may not be entirely justified. The basic structure of the forces, including the rules and regulations, remain the same. You have the system available to you and you know it quite well. Having said that, every nation's armed forces build up a Psychological Profile of the opposing forces' leadership, in addition to the doctrines and ORBAT revisions as applicable.

Every officer of the opposing force is tracked and profiled to the best of own abilities, especially the one's deemed to be the 'rising stars'. Often, a professional profile can also be beefed up by the officers authoring various articles/papers in various professional periodicals/pamphlets in addition to getting the general impression by means of 'low grade intelligence' i.e. reputation in troops, subordinates and peers. Be rest assured, your forces are doing the same. You can take a cue from the reports of 'spies' being caught on and off in Indian media.

Having said that, the biggest challenge remains in not only acknowledging your relative weaknesses and strengths, but also sensitizing the same to your junior leadership, thereby, creating a class of leadership across the forces at all levels, that are sensitized to your handicaps, understand your strengths and are able to work with the information as available, without presuming, assuming or appreciating capabilities/situations that may remain of dubious credibility.

A war is prosecuted with the Leadership (the political aspect and the masters of raison d'etre of the war), the Armed Forces and the Population, in complete sync with each other and undertaking all necessary actions towards a common objective. If you were to just go around PDF itself, you shall be able to appreciate the problem that you face - a dissonance between what is and what is being projected. The gap, if I may, is quite disconcerting to note.

@MastanKhan has been very categorical over certain aspects in his first post on this thread. While he has taken an example of PAF and emphasized on the differences between PAF and IAF, if you were to take a step back and appreciate all the aspects that support a successful prosecution of war, you would be able to appreciate the situation more clearly.

No amount of Psy-Ops yields dividends, if it creates an environment of misinformation for those who need to be working in conjunction with each other to achieve a satisfactory outcome.

Thanks




Your rationale has some logic, but it, the decision to not send in your troops, remains one of the most sensible decisions undertaken in recent memory. You have adequate combat experience being gained by troops in various restive regions of the country.



Every war is the result of a desire to achieve political objectives that are not achieved through a diplomatic/political engagement. But, like I said earlier, remains a very sensible decision. The question is, till when will Saudi Arabia remain okay in not calling in the markers?




Can you extrapolate it to the idea as being espoused by the member?

There is no doubt both nations keep an eye on the officers of the other's military, but do they try to get inside the other's OODA Loop from the psychology of the opposing officer corp. Also this is not only at the general or mid-level officer level, but all levels of leadership. A Pakistani captain playing an Indian captain, with the kind of long term cultural training could show the Pakistani force its weaknesses. This is where the younger officers would earn their lessons, and not on the battlefield. As these officers would rise up the ranks, the lessons from their early days, and repeated engagements with the Op-Force, would impress upon them limits of their current tactics and to begin to think of new ones. The goal is to point out our own weaknesses and be best able to adapt with the resources we have.

PDF members are free to spit ball ideas and see what sticks. we come from all walks of life, so dissonance is to be expected. Other nations facing similar existential threats, have the full spectrum of opinions, but when the threat increases we all rally round our military leadership, and now our political leadership, to lead us out of the crisis.

---
While every war is basically political, we have to understand what objectives are realistically achievable and what is not with the rules of war we must operate under. Do to the open-ended quagmire Yemen looked like from the start, and knowing the backlash potential at home, the parliament couldn't agree to authorize military participation.

However, providing the manpower to enforce peace agreements; such as the current ceasefire in the Yemeni port city of Hodeidah would be a good place to start. If/When the peace deals expand territory out from cities like Hodeidah, a PA contingent can provide the muscle that would prevent the collapse of the peace deals. Eventually, the stalemate would either bring the parties to the negotiating table, or defacto partition the country. Either way, the fighting would be contained and minimized.

 

[MastanKhan]

Your rationale has some logic, but it, the decision to not send in your troops, remains one of the most sensible decisions undertaken in recent memory. You have adequate combat experience being gained by troops in various restive regions of the counCan you extrapolate it to the idea as being espoused by the member?

Hi,

Sensible /secure / thoughtful / considerate decisions don't don't build the fortunes of a nation.

Outrageous / courageous / harsh / hard decisions bring results---.

Fortunes of successful nations of are built of taking advantage at the right moment---.

Yemen was the perfect war for pak military---the opponent was small---the money was there to fund the war to build multiple battle groups---.

The supporter of the Yemen rebels is a pariah nation---.

It was the PERFECT opportunity for pak military to expand its strength with the approval of world superpowers---.

How stupid was Gen Raheel Sharif to not take advantage if it---it is beyond words to explain---.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Sensible /secure / thoughtful / considerate decisions don't don't build the fortunes of a nation.

Outrageous / courageous / harsh / hard decisions bring results---.

Fortunes of successful nations of are built of taking advantage at the right moment---.

Yemen was the perfect war for pak military---the opponent was small---the money was there to fund the war to build multiple battle groups---.

The supporter of the Yemen rebels is a pariah nation---.

It was the PERFECT opportunity for pak military to expand its strength with the approval of world superpowers---.

How stupid was Gen Raheel Sharif to not take advantage if it---it is beyond words to explain---.

Yemen is not over yet, and there is a ceasefire a Pakistani Military contingent can enforce. With the war going even worse for the Saudis, Pakistan can negotiate rules of engagement and the outlines of a Peacekeeping force to protect ever growing areas both sides have stopped fighting in.

The pull out from Syria is another place Pakistan can work with the Saudis, Turks, and Jordanians. If Pakistan/Saudi/Jordanian Force takes over the base from At Tanf (protecting a refugee camp of 50,000 with only 200 us spec-op forces) all the way up the Syrian-Iraqi Border to Al Bukamal (where the Turkish force can move to along the river valley) it would close up the border between Syria and Iraq and create a non-Iranian controlled trade corridor between the gulf countries and Jordan all the way to Turkey. World support for this buffer zone, and the force to police it until Syria Stabilizes could see Pakistan basing 10,000's of troops to prevent destabilizing forces coalescing there. This is another opportunity to get the 8-10 divisions worth of equipment and funding, with the approval of world powers; especially due to the trade corridor. This corridor would also be a roadblock for Iranian forces moving freely between Iraq and Syria and that would be another reason the west would support it.

Turkey is working on building Legitimacy with a Council of Syrian Tribes; Pakistani Forces can work with the Turks and the Gulf Arabs; linking Saudi to Jordan, and via the corridor to Turkish controlled Syria and then Turkey proper. It would be a safe space for Refugees to return to until the current regime in Damascus falls.

Is that bold enough? 100,000 troops to police a 500 km corridor.

 

[Nilgiri]

Out of a clear blue sky, a note like this one! I am gobsmacked.

Salut, Sir.

PS: About ten minutes later - still feeling concussed.
@Nilgiri @hellfire @Kaniska @Tom M

Look at these notes above (#8 and #12). I'm not saying they can achieve even a close degree of similarity (how would they get simply the variations within Tamil Nadu?) but the insight is hugely positive and encouraging. And so, so different from the usual crap.

For some reason I didn't get your tag, but stumbled across this thread anyway thankfully.

I do much appreciate where @FuturePAF is coming from. There is hope after all.

I agree making a potent reduction/distillation of India (to use in a military counter-adaptation role where elegance and facile rubric discipline is of key importance) would lose much of the variation of the subject study. I have talked with @Levina for example how malayalam was used by IA tank radio real time comms in certain engagements in 65 + 71 wars, precisely because it was unknown language (and of different language family altogether) for Pak SIGINT. So I am sure Pakistan has already went some way with the technology and time available since then to address that kind of specific issue. Nevertheless is presents an idea of the scale at hand here.

A broader inherent study as suggested has definite merits, but you are right there will be much difficulty too. In the end resource and return analysis has to be factored in....Pakistan probably has to grow its resources a whole lot more for this high level of strategy to be employed inside it to be "worth it" (though I think it can start on some feeler type programs of this variety, if it hasn't done so already).

I do appreciate the silver lining proposed very much (I have found myself in agreement with FuturePAF before on other subjects I believe)....it is high time more maturity is employed as time goes by...we are neighbours after all.

Even at the height of the Cuban missile crisis, what solved the issue and scaled the world back from the brink was the use of empathy by both sides as noted by Robert McNamara in "The Fog of War" documentary (well worth watching, sublime Philip glass soundtrack too).

As the great Atticus Finch said ... "Scout, you never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view – until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.”

@django @Signalian @WAJsal @Hell hound @Jungibaaz @waz @Arsalan @Chak Bamu @Oscar

 

[Nilgiri]

All I needed to do was go away for a couple of hours, and this clutch of outstanding comments arises?

Is there a message in this somewhere?

That you need to take cpl hour breaks when you can? *chortles*

 

[MastanKhan]

Yemen is not over yet, and there is a ceasefire a Pakistani Military contingent can enforce. With the war going even worse for the Saudis, Pakistan can negotiate rules of engagement and the outlines of a Peacekeeping force to protect ever growing areas both sides have stopped fighting in.

The pull out from Syria is another place Pakistan can work with the Saudis, Turks, and Jordanians. If Pakistan/Saudi/Jordanian Force takes over the base from At Tanf (protecting a refugee camp of 50,000 with only 200 us spec-op forces) all the way up the Syrian-Iraqi Border to Al Bukamal (where the Turkish force can move to along the river valley) it would close up the border between Syria and Iraq and create a non-Iranian controlled trade corridor between the gulf countries and Jordan all the way to Turkey. World support for this buffer zone, and the force to police it until Syria Stabilizes could see Pakistan basing 10,000's of troops to prevent destabilizing forces coalescing there. This is another opportunity to get the 8-10 divisions worth of equipment and funding, with the approval of world powers; especially due to the trade corridor. This corridor would also be a roadblock for Iranian forces moving freely between Iraq and Syria and that would be another reason the west would support it.

Turkey is working on building Legitimacy with a Council of Syrian Tribes; Pakistani Forces can work with the Turks and the Gulf Arabs; linking Saudi to Jordan, and via the corridor to Turkish controlled Syria and then Turkey proper. It would be a safe space for Refugees to return to until the current regime in Damascus falls.

Is that bold enough? 100,000 troops to police a 500 km corridor.

Hi,

There is nothing common between what I have stated over the years about Yemen issue and what you are stating---.

I think you have no clue what I wrote about Yemen crisis for pakistan military.

To cut it short---I had written of build up of a seperate force of upto 150K troops---3-4 sqdrn's of strike aircraft like the SU34's or the JH7A's---heavy lift aircraft---surveillance aircraft---gunship helicopters like the MI35's andother combat helicopters---6-8 armor division on quick deployment---another 5-6 divisions of infantry with artillery and special force---4-8 F22 type frigates---3-4 054 type frigates---15-20 corvettes---all these split between three to four locations---Saudia----Emirates---Oman---Qatar---.

I called for a massive pakistani strike force in the region---and not a peace keeper type force---. A total independant military for the gulf region commanded by a pakistani general and general staff---.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That you need to take cpl hour breaks when you can? *chortles*

Apparently.

Please don't, however, repeat this prescription too often, we have two incredibly industrious supermen enforcing the rules who might enforce this one as a rule. What were Voltaire's words?....."pour l'encouragement les autres"? You will sympathise with my superstitious avoidance of the specific context.

@hellfire
@jbgt90 FYI
@Nilgiri

Any thoughts on the other prescription, not the one encouraging me to stay away, but the one proposing a Hannibal let loose on the Arabian Peninsula, complete with war elephants and Nubian cavalry. It is interesting that cultural and national inhibitions are visible so prominently even in force configurations; there is a land force, and a sea force, and no connection between the two. Where is Mahan when we really need him sobbing into his hankie?

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

There is nothing common between what I have stated over the years about Yemen issue and what you are stating---.

I think you have no clue what I wrote about Yemen crisis for pakistan military.

To cut it short---I had written of build up of a seperate force of upto 150K troops---3-4 sqdrn's of strike aircraft like the SU34's or the JH7A's---heavy lift aircraft---surveillance aircraft---gunship helicopters like the MI35's andother combat helicopters---6-8 armor division on quick deployment---another 5-6 divisions of infantry with artillery and special force---4-8 F22 type frigates---3-4 054 type frigates---15-20 corvettes---all these split between three to four locations---Saudia----Emirates---Oman---Qatar---.

I called for a massive pakistani strike force in the region---and not a peace keeper type force---. A total independant military for the gulf region commanded by a pakistani general and general staff---.

In due time, a force like that can be built up, but first we need smaller missions with more political cover.

Establishing a force of 150,000 Troops in one go; we would be expected by the Saudis to fight the entire Yemeni war head on. Wouldn't it be better to establish a base on the coast; and peace-meal take up the responsibilities from the Saudis, achieving their objectives bit by bit. A division garrisons Hodeidah. Enforcing a defined perimeter around the city, it keeps the peace and fights off any ceasefire violations. Pursuing those that violate the ceasefire would be where the active defense strategy would come into play. The goal being to always go just as far to stop attacks and try to reach a facilitate negotiations. maybe this is where your viewpoint and my method converge. To support enforcing the peace, if Pakistan needs equipment the Arab coalition provides the equipment/material and financial support. We may start with a division, but as you expand outwards from these beachheads more and more divisions come into expand the "ceasefire" area. The coastline adjacent will need to be patrolled, and ships will be shifted over, as the funds for it allow Pakistan to build another ship to replace in in PN service. Incrementally, Pakistan secures Yemen over a few years, and this method creates confidence in the allied governments and the Arab peoples that Pakistan is there to secure peace, all the while being equipped with the latest aircraft, ships, artillery, tanks, and all other manner of modern military material.

http://www.arabnews.com/node/1424441/middle-east
http://www.arabnews.com/node/1424071/saudi-arabia

The Russians have a base like this at Latakia, the Chinese are doing something similar from Djibouti (to support their peacekeeping troops), the French do this in Africa, and the Australians in East Timor. When large operations become available the forces can scale up with a good track record of "protecting the peace", but fighting where they must. France has done this in Africa, using their Foreign Legion and Regular Army, and the build up isn't noticed unless the information is publicly released.

P.S. what do you think of the Syrian Corridor Idea?

 

[Hellfire]

Apparently.

Please don't, however, repeat this prescription too often, we have two incredibly industrious supermen enforcing the rules who might enforce this one as a rule. What were Voltaire's words?....."pour l'encouragement les autres"? You will sympathise with my superstitious avoidance of the specific context.

@hellfire
@jbgt90 FYI
@Nilgiri

Any thoughts on the other prescription, not the one encouraging me to stay away, but the one proposing a Hannibal let loose on the Arabian Peninsula, complete with war elephants and Nubian cavalry. It is interesting that cultural and national inhibitions are visible so prominently even in force configurations; there is a land force, and a sea force, and no connection between the two. Where is Mahan when we really need him sobbing into his hankie?

Sir.

Exclusive to the said proposal as being discussed.

Argument for the same:

Allows Pakistan to take a 'leadership' role in the so called Islamic Military Alliance in terms of both Military and Political aspects, providing it an unique position to play a key role in calibrating the Saudi Arabian-Iran relations (or lack thereof), thereby allowing Pakistan to benefit from good relations all around, positive image building with in the alliance and the region and the world as a whole, and like has been suggested, permits Pakistan to reap benefit which every military intervention brings in - that of fine tuning and upgrading military equipment, technology and doctrines alongwith ORBAT.

Further, the close military relationship established with China gives it the flexibility to be independent of any other power bloc (read Russia and US) for military aspects. The Chinese would support such an intervention, albeit subtly, as it provides them the unique opportunity to extend their interests in the Islamic World, and the same shall prove decisive in their concerns of Xinjiang-East Turkestan issue.

Argument against the same:

The intractable animosity that has been nurtured and encouraged on sectarian lines (read Sunni-Shia), will test the resolve of GoP and PA, in any said intervention due to blow back on their own society. The challenges that they face on the home front - of poor economic situation and the need to keep an 'Islamic' narrative alive yet balance the anti-Shia undercurrents in their own society, will take a severe hit in any such intervention. The only option, therefore, for Pakistan, would be to extend their counter-insurgency operations to all groups sans affiliations, which works only if they include the Kashmir and Afghanistan directed groups too.

i would, as an Indian, and speaking militarily, love to see Pakistan intervene in Yemen.

Thanks

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir.

Exclusive to the said proposal as being discussed.

Argument for the same:

Allows Pakistan to take a 'leadership' role in the so called Islamic Military Alliance in terms of both Military and Political aspects, providing it an unique position to play a key role in calibrating the Saudi Arabian-Iran relations (or lack thereof), thereby allowing Pakistan to benefit from good relations all around, positive image building with in the alliance and the region and the world as a whole, and like has been suggested, permits Pakistan to reap benefit which every military intervention brings in - that of fine tuning and upgrading military equipment, technology and doctrines alongwith ORBAT.

Further, the close military relationship established with China gives it the flexibility to be independent of any other power bloc (read Russia and US) for military aspects. The Chinese would support such an intervention, albeit subtly, as it provides them the unique opportunity to extend their interests in the Islamic World, and the same shall prove decisive in their concerns of Xinjiang-East Turkestan issue.

Argument against the same:

The intractable animosity that has been nurtured and encouraged on sectarian lines (read Sunni-Shia), will test the resolve of GoP and PA, in any said intervention due to blow back on their own society. The challenges that they face on the home front - of poor economic situation and the need to keep an 'Islamic' narrative alive yet balance the anti-Shia undercurrents in their own society, will take a severe hit in any such intervention. The only option, therefore, for Pakistan, would be to extend their counter-insurgency operations to all groups sans affiliations, which works only if they include the Kashmir and Afghanistan directed groups too.

i would, as an Indian, and speaking militarily, love to see Pakistan intervene in Yemen.

Thanks

Vintage hellfire. Much appreciated.

@MastanKhan

I have problems with some of what you have recommended in force configuration, but hellfire has a fairer view of the matter. You might like to glance through his appreciation.

 

[aiman_hashmi.25]

General Headquarters

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amazing pics