What an Indian saw inside the Pakistan Army headquarters

[araz]

Out of a clear blue sky, a note like this one! I am gobsmacked.

Salut, Sir.

PS: About ten minutes later - still feeling concussed.
@Nilgiri @hellfire @Kaniska @Tom M

Look at these notes above (#8 and #12). I'm not saying they can achieve even a close degree of similarity (how would they get simply the variations within Tamil Nadu?) but the insight is hugely positive and encouraging. And so, so different from the usual crap.

Interesting discussion however like all discussions of this ilk, it remains largely mute. The point I am trying to make is that with such vatiation in land mass, people, and financial situations how do you make 2 nations(polity beaurocracy and military) realize the need to sit together and sort their differences out for the betterment of the people. Till Pakland achieves financial and political maturity and stability The only way I see it happening is a lot of charred ground and people. This in my view remains a dilemma more so for Pak land than for Indo land which has land mass to retreat into. So the situation is unlikely to improve over the next 7years as Pak land recovers from its financial rape by its polity. Any misadventure by ANY party will ignite a fire which will leave scars across the land for generations to remember.
A
PS: Why the self impost verbal fast? I have missed an intelligent conversation for a long time.
A

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Out of a clear blue sky, a note like this one! I am gobsmacked.

Salut, Sir.

PS: About ten minutes later - still feeling concussed.
@Nilgiri @hellfire @Kaniska @Tom M

Look at these notes above (#8 and #12). I'm not saying they can achieve even a close degree of similarity (how would they get simply the variations within Tamil Nadu?) but the insight is hugely positive and encouraging. And so, so different from the usual crap.

In karachi we got ppl from every corner of india.

We have a Goan Gentlemen's Club for fksks.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Interesting discussion however like all discussions of this ilk, it remains largely mute. The point I am trying to make is that with such vatiation in land mass, people, and financial situations how do you make 2 nations(polity beaurocracy and military) realize the need to sit together and sort their differences out for the betterment of the people. Till Pakland achieves financial and political maturity and stability The only way I see it happening is a lot of charred ground and people. This in my view remains a dilemma more so for Pak land than for Indo land which has land mass to retreat into. So the situation is unlikely to improve over the next 7years as Pak land recovers from its financial rape by its polity. Any misadventure by ANY party will ignite a fire which will leave scars across the land for generations to remember.
A
PS: Why the self impost verbal fast? I have missed an intelligent conversation for a long time.
A

Chief:

1. I did not say that the comment was likely to be successful; I did think that it showed insight and a very good effort at thinking through things.
2. Unfortunately, your dread vision is more likely to come true than all the Pollyanna optimism that we represent. However, 'hope springs eternal in the human breast...' and all that.
3. As for my long silences, I was scared away from PDF by certain off-line indications, and after returning, find that I am unable to handle being insulted any longer. Being called a liar and accused of lacking integrity are perhaps more the meat and fish of a younger man; a 68-year old grandfather cuts a sorry figure ducking rotten vegetables and over-ripe eggs.
4. Posts like yours, and the pleasant surprise that I reacted to, are the only things that can persuade a soul-sick individual to venture out. Or if Modi trips on his own beard and falls on Amit Shah's neck and breaks it.....

In karachi we got ppl from every corner of india.

We have a Goan Gentlemen's Club for fksks.

I will reply as soon as I can speak without a full mouth (which it is now, in obedience to your signature).

Goan Gentlemen? Hmmm. @jbgt90 front and forward, please.

 

[Arsalan]

Look at these notes above (#8 and #12). I'm not saying they can achieve even a close degree of similarity (how would they get simply the variations within Tamil Nadu?) but the insight is hugely positive and encouraging. And so, so different from the usual crap.

I don't think we need to replicate the exact composition of Indian society or cover each and every ethnic group. you have already rightly mentioned that it is impossible,

I personally really like the idea @FuturePAF have presented here. Perhaps we can debate and figure out small changes to make it more practical and do-able. It wont be easy but its not impossible either.

For example, to cover what you have said (about not being able to cover variations within a state), we don't have to. The main aim or the idea here is to develop a structure, a force that can adopt the Indian work culture and policy with hope that they will begin to THINK like the Indian leadership and thus, be able to predict the moves they will make. For this, we need to replicate the top brass. I am quite sure it will eliminate over 50% of minor ethnicity. What i am trying to say here is that get some people to be a Brahmin, a Jatt, few Sikhs, may be similar 8-10 other guys of different mind sets and you can have a small lot that can adopt to this system. Study the enemy (or as our member said, study the neighbor with aim to get closer some day) and try to imitate them, try to think and act as they would have a perhaps you can have a human computer capable of predicting the movies of adversary.

Heck, i think i am just deviating from the point here now. But still, i feel with some deep thinking and debate, this idea can be modified. Just enough to make it workable and still be able to produce some of those intended good results.

Honestly speaking, if we keep co-existence (and i wont venture out to call it friendship) as our target and not taking down the other party, work on this with some dedication, who knows, we might just be able to pull it off.

 

[araz]

I don't think we need to replicate the exact composition of Indian society or cover each and every ethnic group. you have already rightly mentioned that it is impossible,

I personally really like the idea @FuturePAF have presented here. Perhaps we can debate and figure out small changes to make it more practical and do-able. It wont be easy but its not impossible either.

For example, to cover what you have said (about not being able to cover variations within a state), we don't have to. The main aim or the idea here is to develop a structure, a force that can adopt the Indian work culture and policy with hope that they will begin to THINK like the Indian leadership and thus, be able to predict the moves they will make. For this, we need to replicate the top brass. I am quite sure it will eliminate over 50% of minor ethnicity. What i am trying to say here is that get some people to be a Brahmin, a Jatt, few Sikhs, may be similar 8-10 other guys of different mind sets and you can have a small lot that can adopt to this system. Study the enemy (or as our member said, study the neighbor with aim to get closer some day) and try to imitate them, try to think and act as they would have a perhaps you can have a human computer capable of predicting the movies of adversary.

Heck, i think i am just deviating from the point here now. But still, i feel with some deep thinking and debate, this idea can be modified. Just enough to make it workable and still be able to produce some of those intended good results.

Honestly speaking, if we keep co-existence (and i wont venture out to call it friendship) as our target and not taking down the other party, work on this with some dedication, who knows, we might just be able to pull it off.

The only thing that will work is to open Kashmir border for people to move onvboth sides on day passes. Start trade in a manner which suits both countries. Eat from what is good produce of the others. Let sleeping Joe shearers wake up and preach the song of humanity. We can aurvive on that and a bit of bhang . HAAA haa. However let the people movd rather than the armies or the corrupt polity on both sides. Unfortunately too much of cow dung has infested the minds of people on both sides. Humanity has been crushed in favour of right is might and acting like animals is more macho. So while there is stunted growth lack of basic amenities and health care to the masses and education is considered pariah, let bigotry and idiocy rule on. We will be lsd to the slaughter house soon enough by the greed of others. Paklands may have broken one shackle but will Indoland rise above the their petty thinking and think of less war and more trade.
A

 

[Arsalan]

The only thing that will work is to open Kashmir border for people to move onvboth sides on day passes. Start trade in a manner which suits both countries. Eat from what is good produce of the others. Let sleeping Joe shearers wake up and preach the song of humanity. We can aurvive on that and a bit of bhang . HAAA haa. However let the people movd rather than the armies or the corrupt polity on both sides. Unfortunately too much of cow dung has infested the minds of people on both sides. Humanity has been crushed in favour of right is might and acting like animals is more macho. So while there is stunted growth lack of basic amenities and health care to the masses and education is considered pariah, let bigotry and idiocy rule on. We will be lsd to the slaughter house soon enough by the greed of others. Paklands may have broken one shackle but will Indoland rise above the their petty thinking and think of less war and more trade.
A

Sir, i would again say that to me, things are beyond the point of "song of humanity" and "peace and harmony". There is so much hatred, not just at the leadership level who understandable have to instill it for their own gain but at the public level as well (may be thanks to devotion of leaders to make sure it happens). I do not see opening border of Kashmir or any such thing overcome this hatred and mistrust. To me, friendship is not the aim, i would rather settle for a do-able task. Co-existence! Lets not aim to be brother or even friends but at least lets start to stop being sworn enemies, ready to pounce upon each other at the first chance given to us or the first sign of weakness. Lets achieve this and may be our kid's kids can talk about friendship and stuff. We keep chasing that for now and we are bound to fail, labeled weak and traitor and find little to no traction to move forward to success.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

We need a Op-Force "Safron Corp" in the Pakistan Army. Not of the actual troops on a day to day basis, but the officers. From lowest commissioned officers and NCOs, all the way up to generals and even a mock Indian Army Chief, played by one of our corp commanders. They would eat, sleep, live as the Indians do. The goal would be to understand how the enemy thinks. As a rotating position (for at least 1-1.5 years) in an Army officers career, into and out of this flag officer force, it would be the best way to get into the mind set of the enemy. Going through this kind of training would also teach junior officers the differences between the enemy's bark and its actual bite. This would also be great for Psychological and Intelligence forces.

When exercises have to be done against Other Pakistani corps, the equipment, tactics, and general mindset can be taught to an elite corp of 20,000 troops. (training with elements of the Air Force and Navy would be integrated as well to mimic Col-Start Strike Corps as best possible) They would operate against regular Pakistani corps with the latest enemy strategies.

To fund the extra costs; Pakistan can offer the services of this Op-Force to our mid-east allies for long term exercises. This training will help keep Pakistani allies sharp as well. Pakistan can learn to simulate any number of enemies of our allies, through educating our officer corp as well as integrating modern information warfare, space warfare, EW, Cyber, Psych, Special Forces, and Intelligence operations.

Pakistan sits at the crossroads of Southern Eurasia, it needs to leverage its experience to redouble its defenses.

already been done in tri services.......similar foreign assignment is done upto 3 years on UN or in friendly countries, China and maybe Russia r also foreign assignment destinations these days.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Hi,

Why do you think I pushed for pak military to go to Yemen---. It could have created 8-10 divisions of battle groups---comprising of ground---air and naval units---

Such bold decisions can only taken by those who wish to expand.Once our contingent was on ground,it would have been us deciding fate of lot many.But sadly they missed the chance to appease certain segment of our country and their mad masters.
If they would have gone for it,we won't have been running like headless chickens today.

 

[ali_raza]

Hi,

Why do you think I pushed for pak military to go to Yemen---. It could have created 8-10 divisions of battle groups---comprising of ground---air and naval units---

cant go into details but i guess someone did agree to wht u said

 

[Imran Khan]

he saw nothing as he visited 15 minutes only

 

[MastanKhan]

cant go into details but i guess someone did agree to wht u said

Hi,

Someone 'else' also agreed---but it was too late by then---and he regretted not doing it---.

I disagree. Yemen is a political war where actually "winning" by Saudis would be to manage the Shia Yemenis like Shia Saudis. Getting involved in that political mess is a can of worms that would have caused blow back in Pakistan.

I don't advocate a mercenary force to prolong failed wars, but joint training for "active-defensive" wars. If the Saudis or the Emiratis could have repulsed Iraq in 1990, they would not have needed foreign troops to protect them. While these Gulf nations have the technology (maybe not the manpower), they don't have the kind of existential threat Pakistan faces, and one that requires it to constantly maintain capability parity with its adversaries. Should the Saudis need a defensive force from Pakistan that could be 8-10 battle group divisions or 100,000-150,000 soldiers then that is fine too. We just need to keep out of ventures like Yemen, where capturing the enemies capital doesn't end the war. A Pakistan peacekeeping force in Yemen would be fine after a political settlement. A Pakistan peacekeeping force in Syria with Turkish and Saudi Backing is also fine. Pakistan doesn't need to jump into the political squabble.

Pakistan's decades of peacekeeping experience should be the basis for Pakistan (with Saudi Financial and material support) under the OIC mandates to police the ends of wars. Pakistan and Saudi would cement their leadership and gain military experience. Pakistan can cements its military and political alliances this way, and the mutual defense treaties would maintain the peace among the Muslim countries. Arbitration under OIC guidance rather than going to the UN.

Hi,

Political or not political---nations who have jumped in have reaped the benefits---.

Thousands of years of historical precedence cannot be wiped away at your whims---.

 

[Big Tank]

Hi,

Someone 'else' also agreed---but it was too late by then---and he regretted not doing it---.



Hi,

Political or not political---nations who have jumped in have reaped the benefits---.

Thousands of years of historical precedence cannot be wiped away at your whims---.

It was really that easy, you want your soldiers to burn in Yemen by those poorly armed tribesmen knowing well briefed about each patch of that territory. Or maybe you've no idea how much the skill reputation matters to military including the casualty count while combating at foreign land.

Hi,

Hi,

Political or not political---nations who have jumped in have reaped the benefits---.

Thousands of years of historical precedence cannot be wiped away at your whims---.

Whatever you reap while being rented to the satanic saudis to kill innocents would be considered Haram, maybe people are no bothered with the eternal questionnaire but this is not everything and we all need to die, do prepare a logic to present it to Allah whether why you chose to kill innocents or take part in some invasion meant to be done for foreign powers, good luck with that!

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Someone 'else' also agreed---but it was too late by then---and he regretted not doing it---.



Hi,

Political or not political---nations who have jumped in have reaped the benefits---.

Thousands of years of historical precedence cannot be wiped away at your whims---.

We need a political framework to have the legitimacy to operate there so that we don't suffer blow back. A Peace keeping force to enforce what has been agreed upon can be a peace meal way to hold gains, while not coming across as an invasion force or occupation force. Our troops will need good equipment to be as effective as possible because they have honed their tactics in Waziristan and Baluchistan and the LOC, with limited means. but as 17 years of failed strategy has shown us next door, all the money, technology, or fighting spirit can not override political legitimacy.

If our goal is to have a well trained and equipped force of 8-10 divisions with air power and naval support, we can get that even more so with a peacekeeping force. The Saudis would back, fund, and equip that force if it keeps their southern border secure. They also need a similar force to protect their northern border and up into Iraq/Syria.

Don't sell us short. Look at our operations in Somalia in the 90s, and the dozens of Pakistani Soldiers lost there, and for what? We need a ceasefire or political agreement before committing forces. A failed strategy will sap the morale of the troops and wreck the momentum the Pakistani military has been building up over the last couple of decades, but a well thought out mission, will be an opportunity to not only get equipped, but make partners and open up better trade relations.

For Example: The Pakistan Navy can be built up (with Saudi Funding) to protect the SLOC of the Arabian Sea for the One Belt One Road; especially as the US seems to be pulling back from the region and shifting to the Pacific. The Air Force can patrol no fly zones in defense of refugee camps and cities from one warring party.

 

[MastanKhan]

It was really that easy, you want your soldiers to burn in Yemen by those poorly armed tribesmen knowing well briefed about each patch of that territory. Or maybe you've no idea how much the skill reputation matters to military including the casualty count while combating at foreign land.



Whatever you reap while being rented to the satanic saudis to kill innocents would be considered Haram, maybe people are no bothered with the eternal questionnaire but this is not everything and we all need to die, do prepare a logic to present it to Allah whether why you chose to kill innocents or take part in some invasion meant to be done for foreign powers, good luck with that!

We need a political framework to have the legitimacy to operate there so that we don't suffer blow back. A Peace keeping force to enforce what has been agreed upon can be a peace meal way to hold gains, while not coming across as an invasion force or occupation force. Our troops will need good equipment to be as effective as possible because they have honed their tactics in Waziristan and Baluchistan and the LOC, with limited means. but as 17 years of failed strategy has shown us next door, all the money, technology, or fighting spirit can not override political legitimacy.

If our goal is to have a well trained and equipped force of 8-10 divisions with air power and naval support, we can get that even more so with a peacekeeping force. The Saudis would back, fund, and equip that force if it keeps their southern border secure. They also need a similar force to protect their northern border and up into Iraq/Syria.

Don't sell us short. Look at our operations in Somalia in the 90s, and the dozens of Pakistani Soldiers lost there, and for what? We need a ceasefire or political agreement before committing forces. A failed strategy will sap the morale of the troops and wreck the momentum the Pakistani military has been building up over the last couple of decades, but a well thought out mission, will be an opportunity to not only get equipped, but make partners and open up better trade relations.

For Example: The Pakistan Navy can be built up (with Saudi Funding) to protect the SLOC of the Arabian Sea for the One Belt One Road; especially as the US seems to be pulling back from the region and shifting to the Pacific. The Air Force can patrol no fly zones in defense of refugee camps and cities from one warring party.

Hi,

Sob stories---.

 

[ali_raza]

Hi,

Someone 'else' also agreed---but it was too late by then---and he regretted not doing it---.



Hi,

Political or not political---nations who have jumped in have reaped the benefits---.

Thousands of years of historical precedence cannot be wiped away at your whims---.

sir want more details come pm me