We don't need your advice: Muslim leader to Musharraf

[blain2]

Yaar please spare us the good words from the book of "democracy". As if anything other than democracy is a sin.

Your whole post is an effort to vilify Musharraf on the basis of his take over. Well for Pakistanis, at that time democracy meant nothing. He came, did whatever he could, failed at some, succeeded at others.

It matters very little in the world of politics as to the means that were used to get to ones goals. Your uber-democrat, Indra Gandhi imposed the most undemocratic of all things over India by imposing emergency rule. So this issue is not as black and white as you are trying to depict it.

Musharraf had guts, he managed his relations externally better than internally. His offers to India post Kargil were legitimate. What he did in Kargil had certain reasons which have been discussed in the Kargil threads many times over. At least I do not blame him for the reasons, but I have certain issued with the way it was conducted. In any case that is in the past and post Kargil, Musharraf definitely did a lot of straight talking with India. He was one person who knew a lot about the problem owing to his background. You will not find a person more knowledgeable about the Kashmir issue than the DGMO of the Pakistani and the Indian Armies. He offered his insights and experience and it was not taken up.

The rest is as it was before. I am sure it makes sense to vilify Musharraf in India by not only putting the Kargil issue on him, but also labeling him the anti-democrat because it resonates well with the public in India. To me the one quality of Musharraf, that stands out more than anything else, is his love for Pakistan. He goes to bat for Pakistan no matter where he is. He can easily relax in retirement and not bother with this stuff, but makes an effort to take on the negative perceptions about Pakistan and does his level best (which is much much better than what any recent government in Pakistan has been able to do).
He is not busy politicking inside of Pakistan to secure something for himself, rather he is out talking it out with the Pakistan bashers (by this I do not mean Indians, rather the ant-Pakistan lobby in general). That is more than what any other former leader of Pakistan has done.

 

[Bhishma]

May make sense for you to read and then ponder over the point made by Musharraf wrt the role of intelligence agencies. Practice what you preach first. We learned the art of creating havoc from your political and security apparatus after the 1971 war. Your post is typical of the hypocritical and ignorant stuff that we have become so used to from many in India. We have documented proof of the mischief your great country is causing in Pakistan and all that is forgotten because in your mind, only you are the victim. We have list of people also that are on your payrolls and are provided protection by no less than the Indian government. So wake up and smell the chai. Your India is not as good a boy scout as you may think it.

I do not know much about the activities of Indian intelligence agencies, but from what I have read, it is nowhere close to the sheer scale and volume of terrorism that is being inflicted upon Indians by Pakistan based and supported groups.

In any case, I never claimed that India is a \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"good boy\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\". You are simply avoiding the central issue, which is that Pakistani activities in India have exposed your real intentions.

I am sure that many upper-middle-class Pakistanis feel sorry for the supposed plight of Indian muslims, which is so eagerly dished out by your media and government at every opportunity, while completely oblivious to the fact that the conditions of muslims in Pakistan is probably a lot worse in a variety of respects.

And do you see anyone from Pakistan supporting the crackpots who killed all those innocent people? Why single out only the Muslim victims? The fact that those idiots could care less about killing Muslims or non-Muslims is the main issue here. So how do you tie the dots and put it on Pakistan and Pakistanis all that is going on? You guys are instigating in Afghanistan, you are suppressing in Kashmir, there is an active war going on in Afghanistan (which means a never-ending supply of trained and motivated manpower), so make sure that you understand who you are blaming before you pull the trigger.

The LeT was the beloved poster-boy of Kashmirir \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"liberation struggle\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" in Pakistan before it decided to turn it sights on Bombay. They had the full support of the Pakistani army, government and people.

What happened in Mumbai was simply a large-scale repeat of what had been happening in Kashmir valley for the last 20 years.

Do you think that Kashmir was any less of a war-zone? Just because your propaganda labeled it a \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"freedom struggle\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"?

The fact of the matter is that the Indian army faced pretty much the same conditions as those in FATA currently, especially during the early 90s, but inspite of many excesses, it did not create the kind of horrific refugee crisis that your army has done in FATA.

The accusations that are being made against India here, which is supposedly the \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"hidden hand\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" behind the groups battling the PA are not borne out by any proof - no organization, governmental or non-governmental has so far said anything of the sort, except some rabid \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"analysts\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" like Zaid Hamid.

It is not my inability to accept anything. In actuality, it is my first hand knowledge of the kind of issues Muslims face in India that I say what I say. You folks can put on the greatest show on earth and say that all is fine and the world will believe you, however you see in Pakistan we have families who have families in India and they keep in touch and get to know what all is transpiring and based on that flow of information, I can tell you that all is not well.

I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'m sure you are well aware of those issues, and let me add that Indian muslims are also aware of those issues, (I daresay more than you). However, when it comes to the problems faced by muslims in Pakistan, somehow they never seem to match up to those faced by muslims in India in the minds of Pakistanis.
Its almost as if (in the minds of some Pakistanis) its okay for one muslim to mistreat another muslim, but God Forbid a muslim gets mistreated by a Hindu.

Secondly, there is not one person in Pakistan who wishes any ill on the Muslims in India. There is absolutely no reason for people in Pakistan to ever want to see a repeat of the Gujrat pogrom. This is something that you will never understand but when the mess in Gujrat happened, our Pakistani hearts cried for the people there and there was nothing for us to gain in their misery.

Yes, as I said, ordinary Pakistanis probably do feel sorry for their supposedly ill-treated \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"brethren\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" back home. Its the only human thing to do. However, I simply see it as a wilfull distraction and self-deception.
When the numerous shia- sunni riots take place in Pakistan, do the hearts of those same Pakistanis bleed as much for their muslim brothers, or are they too busy taking sides?

Thirdly, a lot of you Indians need to get over the thinking that Pakistanis somehow are in some sort of a denial about Indian Muslims and Hindus getting along.

We cannot get over that thinking as long as we keep meeting Pakistanis who are in denial. (as evidenced by several members comments on this forum itself)

We don\\\\'t have a reason to see the Muslims not get along with their compatriots in majority. Pakistanis want the Indian Muslims to get integrated so they get equal opportunities as are available to the Hindus. Our sole gripe is that you have not done justice with them. Maybe you are on the right track and then there will be justice for them, however for now, there are considerable problems and for you to try to shut us up by saying that you do not have a right to take up the case of the Indian Muslims is just crass! Every time something bad happens to a Pakistani hindu, rightfully so too you folks make sure that it gets all the press possible. So what is the problem with us doing the same?

The problem is that hypocrisy. That\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s the problem. Because more often than not, those who bring up the plight of Indian muslims also promote Pakistan as the promised land. The land of freedom from Hindu tyranny and the land where all muslims can live in peace and harmony.

Musharraf, the guy who ruled Pakistan for eight years, the guy who probably knew and authorized the activities of Pakistani intelligence agencies in India, who tried to take Kashmir by force, claims to care about Indian muslims? Its absurd and laughable.

Lastly, Pakistanis are not as much concerned about the state of the Muslims in India proper as we are with the situation of the Kashmiri Muslims in IoK. Indian Muslims have no right to tell Pakistan to back off of that (due to their own domestic political reasons), because Pakistan has a stake in this issue and is party to the conflict. The fact that Kashmiris are still not reconciled to the Indian rule is an indication that they are not happy and regardless of what you say, they do want Pakistan to champion their case. As such we do with conviction knowing that we owe it to them.

If Pakistanis were so concerned, why did they send tribals to conquer the territory by force in 1947? Why did they keep sending militants to wreak havoc in that region and turn it into a war-zone? Why did they promote extremist islam and crush the peaceful sufi Islam that was native to Kashmir?

The reason is simple - they wanted to capture Kashmir for themselves. This is a battle for land, not for the well-being of Kashmiris.

Things have not changed today either. Extremists from Kashmir are still treated as state-guests in Pakistan, and provided funding and \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"moral support\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\". You guys don\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t care about Kashmiris, all you care about is that Kashmir doesn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t become a part of India in letter and spirit, thus invalidating the idea of Pakistan.

 

[blain2]

I will respond to all of the stuff in your post. However it will have to be later. Just want to leave you with one thought for now. Do you think anything including the attack on Mumbai by supposed LET crackpots or the violence in Kashmir even comes close to the dismemberment of a sovereign nation by force of arms prior to using proxies to stir up all sorts of violence and murders? We have to live with that image of India. Until and unless your India has done a massive image makeover, to us Pakistanis its outright shameful for you to tell us about the wrongs of waging proxy wars, using violence to cede national territory and the million other charges you have dumped on us. I hope you get an inkling of the perspective that we have on this situation and if you do understand the point then do you see the hypocrisy of your statements in any of this?

Maybe its time to stop feeling sorry for your selves and try to understand where the other side is coming from.

 

[Muradk]

THANK YOU!!!!
I'm getting sick as well.... India is a state with Muslims as well. Pakistanis don't want to accept that. They always think Pakistan's the only or greatest Muslim state. Common... but when they go to the middle east, they're considered as second rated citizens.

Mr.Raja you are a new member so I will let you go this time but for next time keep reminding your self when you log in that this is a Pakistani forum not one of your Indian Dream land forum. Please take this under advisement it will be better for you in future.:

Here is the youtube video where Madani made those remarks to Musharraf. Watch Musharaff's face turn from red to pale

ZO1sUdAdlNI[/media] - Indian Muslim to Musharraf

Mr.Linkinpark please get your eyes checked may be you are color blind and if you don't have the money to see a doctor just let me know I will send it to you. And there is another member who said Pakistanis have no answer to this thread. Son I ain't no sinner and surly I ain't no Saint so if I give you guys a answer you will not like it.

 

[Khajur]

Full video clip of Madani-Musharraf interaction...

India Today - India's most widely read magazine.

Go to video part 12

 

[salman nedian]

Our Indian members must know that the Muslims of India are not only Muslims but they have their relatives living in Pakistan and we must bother about the safety of our people in India which is a country where our people were burned alive when they went to meet their relatives. Is this the way you treat your guests? Look at the Lahore police officers who laid down their lives but did not allow terrorists to harm our guests.

Many Gujaratis are living in Pakistan do you expect them not to bother when their relatives are being killed in India?? We know how our Babri Mosque was martyred there, if you want to see how Churches and Mandirs are protected come and visit our Muslim Pakistan.

 

[afriend]

The issue is, generalising the problems Indian Muslims face, We say pakistan is a country hit by terrorsim, created,nurtured,supported by the state and now having to bear the burnt of its own child and they are either aiding it or have no control over what ever they created, you can see LET, Talibane etc etc . and you say that ALL indian muslims are Oppressed and HINDU india is trying to distabilse pakistan and stuff. There are certain amount of truth in both statements. But generalising that there are no terrorists in pakistan and there are no discrimination against muslims in india and vice verca is somewhat a sweeping statement and would be highly iloggical. Hence I believe Mr. Madani gave this Generalising General a fitting reply..!!!

 

[salman nedian]

The issue is, generalising the problems Indian Muslims face, We say pakistan is a country hit by terrorsim, created,nurtured,supported by the state and now having to bear the burnt of its own child and they are either aiding it or have no control over what ever they created, you can see LET, Talibane etc etc . and you say that ALL indian muslims are Oppressed and HINDU india is trying to distabilse pakistan and stuff. There are certain amount of truth in both statements. But generalising that there are no terrorists in pakistan and there are no discrimination against muslims in india and vice verca is somewhat a sweeping statement and would be highly iloggical. Hence I believe Mr. Madani gave this Generalising General a fitting reply..!!!

India has also been involved in interfering in its neighbors internal issues. Pakistan, Bangladesh and Srilanka are not happy with India and this shows what Indian policies are all about. Pakistan released an Indian prisoner and he accepts that he was a spy.

Generalization should not be done and Indians should not portray their country as innocent child which does nothing.

 

[linkinpark]

Our Indian members must know that the Muslims of India are not only Muslims but they have their relatives living in Pakistan and we must bother about the safety of our people in India which is a country where our people were burned alive when they went to meet their relatives. Is this the way you treat your guests? Look at the Lahore police officers who laid down their lives but did not allow terrorists to harm our guests.

Many Gujaratis are living in Pakistan do you expect them not to bother when their relatives are being killed in India?? We know how our Babri Mosque was martyred there, if you want to see how Churches and Mandirs are protected come and visit our Muslim Pakistan.

Please spare us from your self-righteous lecture. There were temples demolished and attacks on Christians, sectarian violence, attacks on Ahmadiya's etc etc. You have your own set of problems, we have our set of problems. The point Madani made is, our civil society can take care of our own problems (he never said they we don't have problems) and Musharraff has no business in this. So you take care of your own problems and we take care of our own.

 

[linkinpark]

Mr.Linkinpark please get your eyes checked may be you are color blind and if you don't have the money to see a doctor just let me know I will send it to you. And there is another member who said Pakistanis have no answer to this thread. Son I ain't no sinner and surly I ain't no Saint so if I give you guys a answer you will not like it.

Sir, that was a figurative speech. You took it literally. Sorry, if those words hurt you.

 

[salman nedian]

Please spare us from your self-righteous lecture. There were temples demolished and attacks on Christians, sectarian violence, attacks on Ahmadiya's etc etc. You have your own set of problems, we have our set of problems. The point Madani made is, our civil society can take care of our own problems (he never said they we don't have problems) and Musharraff has no business in this. So you take care of your own problems and we take care of our own.

There has never been mass killings of minorities in Pakistan like Gujarat, nothing happened like the martyrdom of Babri Mosque where thousands of people attacked the Mosque and with the help of political parties plus we don’t burn train of our guests.

 

[Bhishma]

There has never been mass killings of minorities in Pakistan like Gujarat, nothing happened like the martyrdom of Babri Mosque where thousands of people attacked the Mosque and with the help of political parties plus we don’t burn train of our guests.

Don\\\'t pat yourself on the back for that.

The reasons are simple:
1. There are no significant minority populations in Pakistan.
2. Minorities have no political power, and they don\\\'t have any hope of gaining political power. Riots as we know are as much about religion as politics. So obviously, there are no riots.

However, there is a systematic and constant persecution of minorities, which has reduced their population to near-negligible and is far worse than one-time riots which flare up and die down quickly.

Its like the Americans claiming that there is no more persecution of Native Americans. That\'s because there aren\'t enough Native Americans to pose a political challenge genius!!

 

[linkinpark]

Full video clip of Madani-Musharraf interaction...

India Today - India's most widely read magazine.

Go to video part 12

From the answer of Musharaff to Madani, it looks like he got pretty pissed of what Madani said to him.

 

[moha199]

It doesn't matter at all that what Musharraf replied.

There is no point in comparing a student, an MLA and a former President (and former army chief) in presence of mind.

The question itself is a slap on those faces showing fake concerns for Indian Muslims. Let's hope some lesson will be learned.

These are not fake concerns ok buddy boy. We Pakistan has been infected by indian muslims as well. You talk about Indian muslims!!! Kashmire is the biggest problem. Those who help kasmiries are also indian muslims and musharraf is only trying to make a point by we clear our mess and you should clear yours to indian!!!!. Something goes wrong in indian side of kasmire who is blamed! PAKISTAN why stupids.... When gujrate incident happened Pakistan was the first to blame then indians decided to realize"oh **** its the mob attack" your mumbai attack!!! it is clearly stated on international investigation that there were 9 countries who were involve in this including Pakistan and india so you tell me why india.... Now hindu were helping these terrorists???????? but who was blamed Pakistan.... This is just the low life statements by indian government that Pakistan and ISI ARMY is always behind indian problems.... In shorts it also becomes our problem so this poor man was trying to address this problem and by the way video only tells one side of the story not the both....

 

[Bhishma]

From the answer of Musharaff to Madani, it looks like he got pretty pissed of what Madani said to him.

Yes, he looked pissed. Perhaps he was expecting a more friendly situation, certainly not such hostility.