We are Jihadis; we have the right to rule

[SQ8]

But therein lies the catch sir, if persecution is open to interpretation then it becomes open ended and prone to manipulation similarly how can one ever be sure that the rulers are just and/or honest- since there can never be any true surety with regard to the same- or is it enough that they are perceived to be just and honest by a majority of their subject?

For that , you have to ensure a system in place that maintains those checks and balances. After all, a nation was invaded not too long ago under the guise of protecting world security from WMDs even when their democracy is lauded across the world.
Similarly, there are accounts of Turkish Sultans using these terms to project their expansion. It all depends on how well you are led.

 

[Dillinger]

For that , you have to ensure a system in place that maintains those checks and balances. After all, a nation was invaded not too long ago under the guise of protecting world security from WMDs even when their democracy is lauded across the world.
Similarly, there are accounts of Turkish Sultans using these terms to project their expansion. It all depends on how well you are led.

What of the "letter" referenced by @notsuperstitious?

It is true that any pretext can be presented to those who are gullible, and we all have been known to be gullible.

 

[livingdead]

I still dont not understand OP.. does he mean there was a time when things were awsome and it can be attributed to quran...
and wonder why we cant repeat the same feat now?

or is it ..that even though quran is word of god, it never brought intended change (beyond people calling themselves muslim of course)...

 

[KingMamba]

What of the "letter" referenced by @notsuperstitious?

It is true that any pretext can be presented to those who are gullible, and we all have been known to be gullible.

What of it?

I have problem with below bit...

'Quran is a book; a fine cut of Divine wisdom and knowledge…..which God has very graciously bestowed to the mankind. I wish Mecca or Medina were the cities of Islam from where.....that Quranic divinely wisdom and knowledge was flowing out in abundance ....'

I have tried to read it, looks like you are talking about another book.

It happens all the time not every simpleton can grasp the message. You think the Taliban ever got threw the whole book either?

I still dont not understand OP.. does he mean there was a time when things were awsome and it can be attributed to quran...
and wonder why we cant repeat the same feat now?

or is it ..that even though quran is word of god, it never brought intended change (beyond people calling themselves muslim of course)...

Islam did not bring change? Did you miss history class?

 

[Dillinger]

What of it?



It happens all the time not every simpleton can grasp the message. You think the Taliban ever got threw the whole book either?



Islam did not bring change? Did you miss history class?

Well the letter is an out and out threat, convert or pay the price. Perhaps the historical context to this can be provided by some poster here.

 

[KingMamba]

Well the letter is an out and out threat, convert or pay the price. Perhaps the historical context to this can be provided by some poster here.

Okay here is the convo between the envoy and the King when he delivered the letter. Surely if the tone was threatening to the king of Oman he would have offed the envoy.

-Amr bin Al-’As, who was chosen to carry the letter, narrated the following story that happened before he was admitted into the audience of Jaifer.

“When I arrived in ‘Oman I contacted ‘Abd, who was known to be more mild-tempered than his brother:

Amr: I am the messenger of Allah’s Prophet coming to see both, you and your brother.

Abd: You have to see my brother and read to him the letter you are carrying.

He is my senior in both age and kingship.

Incidentally, what is the purport of your mission?

Amr: The Prophet calls upon you to believe in Allah Alone with no associate, discard any other deities and testify to the slavehood and Messengership of Muhammad.

Abd: O Amr! You come from a noble family, but first of all, tell me what was your father’s attitude concerning this Faith?

You know, we used to follow his steps.

Amr: Death overtook him before believing in Muhammad’s mission; I wish now he had embraced Islam and been truthful to it before his death.

I myself had adopted the same attitude until Allah guided me towards Islam.

Abd: When did you embrace Islam?

Amr: When I was at Negus’s court.

By the way, the latter did also enter into the fold of Islam.

Abd: What was his people’s reaction?

Amr: They approved of him and followed his steps.

Abd: The bishops and monks?

Amr: They did the same.

Abd: Beware ‘Amr of lying for this soon betrays man.

Amr: I never tell lies; moreover, our religion never allows it.

Abd: Has Hercules been informed of the Islamization of Negus?

Amr: Yes, of course.

Abd: How did you happen to know that?

Amr: Negus used to pay land tax to Hercules, but when the former embraced Islam, he swore he would discontinue that tax.

When this news reached Hercules, his courtiers urged him to take action against Negus but he refused and added that he himself would do the same if he were not sparing of his kingship.

Abd: What does your Prophet exhort you to do?

Amr: He exhorts us to obey Allah, the All-Mighty, the All-Glorious, be pious and maintain good ties with family kin; he forbids disobedience, aggression, adultery, wine, idolatry and devotion to the cross.

Abd: Fair words and fair beliefs are those you are calling for.

I wish my brother would follow me to believe in Muhammad and profess his religion, but my brother is too sparing of his kingship to become a subordinate.

Amr: Should your brother surrender himself to Islam, the Prophet would give him authority over his people and take alms tax from the wealthy people to be given to the needy.

Abd: That is fair behaviour.

But what is this alms tax you have mentioned?

Amr: It is a Divine injunction that alms tax be taken from the well-to-do people who have surplus wealth and be distributed to the poor.

Abd: I doubt if this can work among our people.”

Amr stayed for some days to be admitted into Jaifer’s court until he was finally granted this permit.

“He asked me to hand him the letter to read it.

After that he asked me how Quraish reacted and I answered that they had followed him, some out of their own freewill and others overpowered by military fighting.

Now, people have chosen Islam in preference to other creeds, and have realized through their mental insight that they had been straying in darkness.

None, except you, is now out of the domain of Islam, so I advise you to embrace Islam so that you can provide security to yourself and your country.

Here, he asked me to call on him the following day.

The following day he showed some reluctance in receiving me but his brother, Abd, interceded and I was given the chance to see him again but this time to address me in a threatening arrogant tone.

However, after a private talk with his brother and reconsidering the whole situation, both brothers embraced Islam and proved to be true to Islam that had begun to make its way into this new area.”

The context of this story reveals that this letter was sent at a much later date than the others, most likely after the conquest of Makkah.

Through these letters, the Prophet managed to communicate his Message to most monarchs at that time; some believed, while others remained obdurate and persisted in their disbelief.

However, the idea of embracing Islam, and the advent of a new Prophet preoccupied all of them.

 

[Dillinger]

Okay here is the convo between the envoy and the King when he delivered the letter. Surely if the tone was threatening to the king of Oman he would have offed the envoy.

-Amr bin Al-’As, who was chosen to carry the letter, narrated the following story that happened before he was admitted into the audience of Jaifer.

“When I arrived in ‘Oman I contacted ‘Abd, who was known to be more mild-tempered than his brother:

Amr: I am the messenger of Allah’s Prophet coming to see both, you and your brother.

Abd: You have to see my brother and read to him the letter you are carrying.

He is my senior in both age and kingship.

Incidentally, what is the purport of your mission?

Amr: The Prophet calls upon you to believe in Allah Alone with no associate, discard any other deities and testify to the slavehood and Messengership of Muhammad.

Abd: O Amr! You come from a noble family, but first of all, tell me what was your father’s attitude concerning this Faith?

You know, we used to follow his steps.

Amr: Death overtook him before believing in Muhammad’s mission; I wish now he had embraced Islam and been truthful to it before his death.

I myself had adopted the same attitude until Allah guided me towards Islam.

Abd: When did you embrace Islam?

Amr: When I was at Negus’s court.

By the way, the latter did also enter into the fold of Islam.

Abd: What was his people’s reaction?

Amr: They approved of him and followed his steps.

Abd: The bishops and monks?

Amr: They did the same.

Abd: Beware ‘Amr of lying for this soon betrays man.

Amr: I never tell lies; moreover, our religion never allows it.

Abd: Has Hercules been informed of the Islamization of Negus?

Amr: Yes, of course.

Abd: How did you happen to know that?

Amr: Negus used to pay land tax to Hercules, but when the former embraced Islam, he swore he would discontinue that tax.

When this news reached Hercules, his courtiers urged him to take action against Negus but he refused and added that he himself would do the same if he were not sparing of his kingship.

Abd: What does your Prophet exhort you to do?

Amr: He exhorts us to obey Allah, the All-Mighty, the All-Glorious, be pious and maintain good ties with family kin; he forbids disobedience, aggression, adultery, wine, idolatry and devotion to the cross.

Abd: Fair words and fair beliefs are those you are calling for.

I wish my brother would follow me to believe in Muhammad and profess his religion, but my brother is too sparing of his kingship to become a subordinate.

Amr: Should your brother surrender himself to Islam, the Prophet would give him authority over his people and take alms tax from the wealthy people to be given to the needy.

Abd: That is fair behaviour.

But what is this alms tax you have mentioned?

Amr: It is a Divine injunction that alms tax be taken from the well-to-do people who have surplus wealth and be distributed to the poor.

Abd: I doubt if this can work among our people.”

Amr stayed for some days to be admitted into Jaifer’s court until he was finally granted this permit.

“He asked me to hand him the letter to read it.

After that he asked me how Quraish reacted and I answered that they had followed him, some out of their own freewill and others overpowered by military fighting.

Now, people have chosen Islam in preference to other creeds, and have realized through their mental insight that they had been straying in darkness.

None, except you, is now out of the domain of Islam, so I advise you to embrace Islam so that you can provide security to yourself and your country.

Here, he asked me to call on him the following day.

The following day he showed some reluctance in receiving me but his brother, Abd, interceded and I was given the chance to see him again but this time to address me in a threatening arrogant tone.

However, after a private talk with his brother and reconsidering the whole situation, both brothers embraced Islam and proved to be true to Islam that had begun to make its way into this new area.”

The context of this story reveals that this letter was sent at a much later date than the others, most likely after the conquest of Makkah.

Through these letters, the Prophet managed to communicate his Message to most monarchs at that time; some believed, while others remained obdurate and persisted in their disbelief.

However, the idea of embracing Islam, and the advent of a new Prophet preoccupied all of them.

That being as it may, it does not detract from the fact that the call to embrace the new faith- whosoever it may be addressed to and on the relevant date- had a threat as an addendum, the final choice could have been predicated upon many things but the terms remain the same. Embrace our faith or else pay a price.

 

[Vishwamithra]

Quran is a book; a fine cut of Divine wisdom and knowledge…..which God has very graciously bestowed to the mankind. I wish Mecca or Medina were the cities of Islam from where.....that Quranic divinely wisdom and knowledge was flowing out in abundance ....

There should have been hundreds of universities of knowledge, philosophy, of science and medicine and research centers surrounding those cities....to benefit the mankind. By now every Muslim country street should have been full of scholars and philosophers of wisdom and Knowledge....

BUT what is this going on..... ......I see brutal Killers emerging from every nook and corner …sent out to spread anarchy, death and destruction to the world out there.........and they say call us TTP, Lashkr e Jhangvi, Lashkar e Teyaba , we are Jihadis.....we have the right to rule....we are your Islam .
But
This is NOt my Islam.

Answer is in your question itself.
The problem is not religion. Problem is the mindset of the people.
When you start judging people by their religion instead of their actions you get this mess.
When you identify people by their actions you can easily isolate good from evil.
When you identify people by their religion the good and evil get easily overlapped.
To put it simply how much damage did India cause to Pakistan compared to your umma brothers.
your umma brother keep giving money to crackpots and keep treating you like slaves but your govt and people still keep licking their boots in the name of Islam. No one comes to protest, no one makes movies, no one writes books on how your umma brothers are destroying you. Why simple because you both share a book. Burka and Dadi is not islam it is just Arab culture. But you will not accept it because you are part of umma. I was watching a vedio of Orya Mqbool, he keeps saying we bring pulao, we bring music etc to India as if local population was living in caves. You know what if you do a DNA test, he would be proven native of the land not a Arab immigrant.
In short, your problems will not be resolved until such time that you learn judge people by their actions instead of their books and dress and religion etc. And to judge the people by actions you have to learn to think using you head instead of heart.

 

[KingMamba]

That being as it may, it does not detract from the fact that the call to embrace the new faith- whosoever it may be addressed to and on the relevant date- had a threat as an addendum, the final choice could have been predicated upon many things but the terms remain the same. Embrace our faith or else pay a price.

I got you.

 

[HariPrasad]

i have many questions. i will start to post. plz answer my questions.
1. Jihad against who ?
2. is suicide allowed in Islam ?
3. does Islam allow killing innocent people ?
4. is Jihad meant for offensive ? or defensive ?
5. does Islam allow to rule by force ?
6. Did our Prophets convert or show people path of Islam by force ?
7. Does Islam say something about Patriotism ?
8. Does Islam allow bombing in Mosque (no matter whose Mosque it is) ?
9. What is the meaning of 'Islam' word ?
10. you said Jihad is the Islam, not the what our Holly Book Al-Qur'an says ? so you have new Islam ?

Yes in most of your question.

 

[jbond197]

Just the same way there are more ways to learn about particular subjects and particular levels. The message is universal, the depth of understanding not. For eg, people will continue to misconstrue the call for Jihad on the battlefield to kill non-Muslims as an order to kill them everywhere. Normally, a person would think and say ok, taht is exactly what is done on the battlefield in the first place. We don't take flowers and give it to the opposing army. That is what is done on the battlefield, however there are others who miss interpret this command and construe that the entire world is a battlefield and regardless or not of whether the call for Jihad has been given by a legitimate government or by a singular madman continue to kill people.. Because that is the level of understanding given to them. So unless, the meaning is explained, interpreted or assisted with by those of understanding... those who are ignorant of the subject matter well interpret it incorrectly

Now you talk to n number of people and they will have n number of explanations with their obvious twists to suit their intent. so how would one identify the true godman from a madman? Why isn't the version with the correct interpretation published and used by all ? That will also help mitigate risk of any misuse.

It is a fact that the level of intoleranc in Muslims is enormous. I have seen most of them abusing others religions almost at free will and they get offensive and abusive as soon as some one starts questioning them. One such lunatic is in this thread and have posted a couple of posts back.

 

[HariPrasad]

Quran is a book; a fine cut of Divine wisdom and knowledge…..which God has very graciously bestowed to the mankind. I wish Mecca or Medina were the cities of Islam from where.....that Quranic divinely wisdom and knowledge was flowing out in abundance ....

There should have been hundreds of universities of knowledge, philosophy, of science and medicine and research centers surrounding those cities....to benefit the mankind. By now every Muslim country street should have been full of scholars and philosophers of wisdom and Knowledge....

BUT what is this going on..... ......I see brutal Killers emerging from every nook and corner …sent out to spread anarchy, death and destruction to the world out there.........and they say call us TTP, Lashkr e Jhangvi, Lashkar e Teyaba , we are Jihadis.....we have the right to rule....we are your Islam .
But
This is NOt my Islam.

You are fully right Bro but this fifth columnist Jehadis (Who have soft corner for Zehad) will not accept the facts. When they face some bomb attack near their house, they will become panic for some time and once again back in denial mode. Some people will have problem against what you wrote because they may be enjoying what is happening on the name of religion.
This is done on the name of religion because it is not religion. Religion is always for mankind not for some group of people. If religious book teaches killing of innocents since they are not among you, It will not remained confine to other group of people but extend to any level as a logical extension. Such as if a father teaches son to steal, he will steal in his own house one day. This is exactly happening in Islamic country. The brutality taught is been exercised on their brothers rather than exercising it against others.

 

[KingMamba]

Answer is in your question itself.
The problem is not religion. Problem is the mindset of the people.
When you start judging people by their religion instead of their actions you get this mess.
When you identify people by their actions you can easily isolate good from evil.
When you identify people by their religion the good and evil get easily overlapped.
To put it simply how much damage did India cause to Pakistan compared to your umma brothers.
your umma brother keep giving money to crackpots and keep treating you like slaves but your govt and people still keep licking their boots in the name of Islam. No one comes to protest, no one makes movies, no one writes books on how your umma brothers are destroying you. Why simple because you both share a book. Burka and Dadi is not islam it is just Arab culture. But you will not accept it because you are part of umma. I was watching a vedio of Orya Mqbool, he keeps saying we bring pulao, we bring music etc to India as if local population was living in caves. You know what if you do a DNA test, he would be proven native of the land not a Arab immigrant.
In short, your problems will not be resolved until such time that you learn judge people by their actions instead of their books and dress and religion etc. And to judge the people by actions you have to learn to think using you head instead of heart.

You are right a lot of Muslims forget that our leaders in the past used to say that if one is not our brother in religion than we must remember he is a brother in humanity.

 

[HariPrasad]

Answer is in your question itself.
The problem is not religion. Problem is the mindset of the people.
When you start judging people by their religion instead of their actions you get this mess.
When you identify people by their actions you can easily isolate good from evil.
When you identify people by their religion the good and evil get easily overlapped.
To put it simply how much damage did India cause to Pakistan compared to your umma brothers.
your umma brother keep giving money to crackpots and keep treating you like slaves but your govt and people still keep licking their boots in the name of Islam. No one comes to protest, no one makes movies, no one writes books on how your umma brothers are destroying you. Why simple because you both share a book. Burka and Dadi is not islam it is just Arab culture. But you will not accept it because you are part of umma. I was watching a vedio of Orya Mqbool, he keeps saying we bring pulao, we bring music etc to India as if local population was living in caves. You know what if you do a DNA test, he would be proven native of the land not a Arab immigrant.
In short, your problems will not be resolved until such time that you learn judge people by their actions instead of their books and dress and religion etc. And to judge the people by actions you have to learn to think using you head instead of heart.

But a large No of people who have everything common with us as you said in your DNA example behaves differently, You can hardly reach to any conclusion. e.g All Pakistanis are of same DNA as of us and everything in common including Culture. Now if you see anarchy to such a large magnitude, to what will you attribute it to?

 

[Vishwamithra]

But a large No of people who have everything common with us as you said in your DNA example behaves differently, You can hardly reach to any conclusion. e.g All Pakistanis are of same DNA as of us and everything in common including Culture. Now if you see anarchy to such a large magnitude, to what will you attribute it to?

You got me totally wrong.
I was explaining what is wrong with the mindset. All those Muslims in India or Pakistan who are try to identify them self as immigrants from Arab instead of accepting that they are local for a reason. The reason is they want to prove they are different just because they are Muslims. If they accept that they are local, then they have to do away with the Arab culture and accept the local culture, that's exactly what that Orya Maqbool guy is against, that's why he keeps saying all good things in India belongs to Arabs. If they accept that they are local, then they have to accept local history from pre-Islamic era to today. That's what Pakistan does not want to do. They are praising the mass murderers just because they were Muslims. They don't want to study anything from Vedas to Chandragupta they just want to keep twisting the history to keep proving only muslims are good and everyone else is evil. It is all to do with their mindset not the religion. President Abdul Kalam belongs to same religion but he does not have the same mindset. I had many Muslim friends in my school days, they were not any different from us, they ate same food, we went to same schools, spoke same language. Not even once we needed question each others religions. But if you take the same kids and start brainwashing them your are different because you are Muslim, every one else is evil except muslims, they will not be any different then Pakistani jihadis. you can do the same to Hindus also. I had a room mate in Bangalore, he was a hindu a very good person but too easy to brainwash. Every time he went to those Bajarangdal meeting he came back barin washed and brought lot of books with biased writtings. He kept praising Savarker, he would never accept that savarkar was athist and follower of lennin. After each of his vists to RSS mullas we would keep arguing with him for weeks to bring him bask to rational thinking.
Bottom line is most of these problems starts with same mindset. Instead of judging people by their actions, if you keep judging them by their religion you have a mess.