Was there a Kshatriya Holocaust on the subcontinent ?

[El Sidd]

Jamrud to be precise, near Peshawar. According to scholars, Jamrud was the seat of power for Namrud (Nimrod) and there is valley nearby which till date is blacked because of the fire which was lit to put Abraham into. As for Namrud, he was close to the time of Noah because he was known to despise of the God Noah for killing his ancestors in the deluge. Across the border in Afghanistan there is place called Mehtar Lam where the tomb of Noah's father is located. In Baluchistan , Taket-e-Suleman mountain is believed to be the place where Noah and his companions disembarked the Ark and settled around the area. Incidently, Mehrgarh in Baluchistan is the known world oldest human settlement. And then there is a case of Pakhtoon being the original Bani Israel (the desendants of Abraham from Isaac). Quran mentioned that ancestors of Bani Isreal was with Noah in his Arc. Aristotle researched the origins of Hebrew and found out that they were a tribe of Indus dislodged after the deluge.

In nutshell, its all pointing towards our Indus basin as the starting point of Humanity. And time line of Indus actually matches with the religious point of humanity to evolve as a civilization. We are not million years old creature. Islamic scholars at maximum, majority of them gives a time frame 10k years from Adam to present humanity. You put Indus, Mesopotamia and Nile in there, moving from east to west, respectively with timeline, it makes perfect sense. That theory of origins from Africa is a pile of poo to support the Derwin theory of evolution that we came from Monkeys.




as in? Things is, Pashtuns are not really lost tribe of bani Israel if you look at the greater scheme of things. They came back to the original lands of their ancestors.

So basically you take a Hindu extremists POV and islamicized the characters.

I am just saying archeology negates this.

Now find me mount ararat or one of the peaks of Ararat. If you say Himalayan I will laugh so hard.

I am keeping an open mind though. Let's hear what you got more.

Notice how pashtun centric it is. I think you got fooled by the isis trolls.

 

[Pakistani E]

The strongest claims to descent from the tribes or tribal groups mentioned in the Rg Veda are undoubtedly in the Punjab. What you mention is quite possible, but I am unable to give you chapter and verse on it. A very rough reconstruction (my apologies for using Wikipedia as a source, but I have been separated from my books for three years now):

1. The Rg Veda describes more than one tribe, and places them very approximately;
2. 33 tribes are mentioned; these are
   1. Alina people (RV 7.18.7) - They were probably one of the tribes defeated by Sudas at the Dasarajna,[5]:I 39 and it has been suggested that they lived to the north-east of Nurestan, because much later, in the 7th century CE, the land was mentioned by the Chinese pilgrim Xuanzang.[5]:I 39 The amateur historian S. Talageri identifies them with the Greeks (Hellenes).[6]
   2. Anu is a Vedic Sanskrit term for one of the 5 major tribes in the Rigveda, RV 1.108.8, RV 8.10.5 (both times listed together with the Druhyu) and, much later also in the Mahabharata.[7] In the late Vedic period, one of the Anu kings, King Anga, is mentioned as a "chakravartin" (AB 8.22). Ānava, the vrddhi derivation of Anu, is the name of a ruler in the Rigvedic account of the Battle of the Ten Kings (7.18.13) and at 8.4.1 with the Turvaśa (tribe). The meaning ánu "living, human" (Naighantu) cannot be substantiated for the Rigveda [8] and may have been derived from the tribal name
   3. Āyu[9]
   4. Bhajeratha[10]
   5. Bhalanas- The Bhalanas are one of the tribes that fought against Sudas in the Dasarajnabattle. Some scholars have argued that the Bhalanas lived in Eastern Afghanistan Kabulistan, and that the Bolan Pass derives its name from the Bhalanas.[7][5]
   6. Bharatas - The Bharatas are an Aryan tribe mentioned in the Rigveda, especially in Mandala 3 attributed to the Bharata sage Vishvamitra and in and Mandala 7.[11] Bharatá is also used as a name of Agni (literally, "to be maintained", viz. the fire having to be kept alive by the care of men), and as a name of Rudra in RV 2.36.8. In one of the "river hymns" RV 3.33, the entire Bharata tribe is described as crossing over, with their chariots and wagons, at the confluence of the Vipash (Beas) and Shutudri (Satlej). Hymns by Vasistha in Mandala 7 (7.18 etc.) mention the Bharatas as the protagonists in the Battle of the Ten Kings, where they are on the winning side. They appear to have been successful in the early power-struggles between the various Aryan and non-Aryan tribes so that they continue to dominate in post-Rigvedic texts, and later in the (Epic) tradition, the Mahābhārata, the eponymous ancestor becomes Emperor Bharata, conqueror of 'all of India', and his tribe and kingdom is called Bhārata. "Bhārata" today is the official name of the Republic of India (see also Etymology of India).
   7. Bhrigus[12]
   8. Chedi[13]
   9. Dasa (dāsa, 'slave', 'servant')[14]
   10. Dasyu (Iranian: Dahyu, mentioned in Latin as: Dahae, in Greek as: Daai)[14]
   11. Dṛbhīka[15]
   12. Druhyus - The Druhyu were a people of Vedic India. They are mentioned in the Rigveda,[16] usually together with the Anu tribe.[17] Some early scholars have placed them in the northwestern region.[5]:I 395 The later texts, the Epic and the Puranas, locate them in the "north", that is, in Gandhara, Aratta and Setu. (Vishnu Purana IV.17) The Druhyus were driven out of the land of the seven rivers, and their next king, Gandhara, settled in a north-western region which became known as Gandhāra. The sons of the later Druhyu king Pracetas too settle in the "northern" (udīcya) region (Bhagavata 9.23.15-16; Visnu 4.17.5; Vayu 99.11-12; Brahmanda 3.74.11-12 and Matsya 48.9.). Recently, some writers[18] have ahistorically asserted that the Druhyu are the ancestors of the Iranian, Greek or European peoples, or of the Celtic Druid class.[19] The word Druid (Gallic Celtic druides), however, is derived from Proto-Indo-European vid "to see, to know' [20] It has also been alleged that the Rg Veda and the Puranas describe this tribe as migrating North,.[18][19] However, there is nothing of this in the Rigveda and the Puranas merely mention that the Druhyu are "adjacent (āśrita) to the North".
   13. Gandhari[21]
   14. Guṅgu[22]
   15. Iksvaku[23]
   16. Krivi[24]
   17. Kīkaṭa[25]
   18. Kuru[11]
   19. Mahīna[26]
   20. Maujavant[27]
   21. Matsya[28]
   22. Nahuṣa[29]
   23. Paktha.[30]
   24. Panis (Iranian Parni?)
   25. Pārāvata
   26. Parsu (Parśu) - The Parsus have been connected with the Persians[5] This is based on the evidence of an Assyrian inscription from 844 BC referring to the Persians as Parshu, and the Behistun Inscription of Darius I of Persia referring to Parsa as the home of the Persians.[31]
   27. Puru (Pūru)
   28. Ruśama
   29. Sārasvata
   30. Srñjaya
   31. Tritsu The Tritsus are a sub-group of the Puru who are distinct from the Bharatas mentioned in Mandala 7 of the Rigveda (in hymns 18, 33 and 83). Under king Sudas they defeated the confederation of ten kings led by the Bharatas at the Battle of the Ten Kings. [This is very badly constructed; it should read "Under King Sudas, led by the Bharatas, they defeated the confederation of ten kings at the Battle of the Ten Kings." - Joe]
   32. Turvasa (Turvaśa)
   33. Yadu
3. There was a process that may be discerned across the years, from the literature and from indirect references. As the power centre shifted gradually more and more to the east, the tribes in the original path of movement forward, those that were more and more left behind in the north-west, lost their relevance in the mainstream. Their dialects and language usage was seen as more and more alien.
4. Please see the references above, specifically the sections in blue; the Battle of Ten Kings may be interpreted as a memory in the Rg Veda of the rearguard action by the tribes moving from the Iranian homeland into India against other tribes still associated with that homeland, and associated with aggressive intentions towards the emigrants.
5. Not only the mention of this Battle of the Ten Kings in the Rg Veda; there was also the passage in Panini the grammarian who crystallised Sanskrit out of the Rg Vedic Indo-Aryan about a verb no longer in 'proper' usage, at his time used only by the 'impure' tribe - he mentions a tribe - living in the north-west.
6. We also have the Kamboj, fierce horsemen known to have fought for the Kauravas at the Battle of Kurukshetra, where their cavalry charges were almost irresistible. The Kamboj were located in a region close to present-day Ferghana, the homeland of the best horses of that age.
7. There are explicit references to the Punjab and points north-west of that having become 'impure' by the time of the late Puranas, and during the course of the shift of power to the east.

Hope this slightly incoherent note was useful.

This is quite interesting and certainly useful. I just haven't had the honour of reading a text in plain English that mentions more about where these individual tribes settled.

If we are to accept that Anu and Druhyu is talking about the Awans and Janjuas of today, then there is indeed some cause for plausibility. For example, when Babar came marching through these areas, he mentioned Janjuas and "Jud" ( In an area where only Awans and Janjuas live), and he says they were closely related and were always fighting each other in what would be western Punjab/eastern KPK region today.

The areas mentioned for settling of Druhyu would also fit very nice as there are Awans and Janjuas in Western Punjab, KPK and even some Awans in south eastern Afghanistan. Add this to the fact that Awans claim to have come through from Afghanistan, it may well point to the fact that were initially driven out/migrated of what is now Punjab but came back again later with invaders that came from Afghanistan.

The origin of Awans is so obscured and confusing, that it is exhausting trying to keep up with all the claims and counter claims. I guess I can add this one to my list of possible origins.

 

[Magi Brahmin]

Maybe some naroo and janjuas from the reagion can help us.

@Proudpakistaniguy a janjua and @ghoul a naroo @Raja.Pakistani

 

[Joe Shearer]

Maybe some naroo and janjuas from the reagion can help us.

@Proudpakistaniguy a janjua and @ghoul a naroo @Raja.Pakistani

Now who or what is a 'naroo'? And how does a Magi Brahmin know all this? Obscure knowledge is MY department.

 

[Joe Shearer]

buddha was a gautam by gotra and kshatriya by varna. kaushika was a chandravanshi kshatriya who became brahmin by tapasya. even in real history both kaushikas and bhargavas are mentioned as warlike indo aryan tribes who got assimilated into vedic society as kshatriya first and brahmana as later.

Without contradicting you, I understood Gautama to be the Buddha's given name, not his gotra. Are you saying that Siddhartha was his name and Gautama was his gotra? Authority?

Kaushika, an individual kshatriya who became Brahmin, was the descendant of Kusha, hence Kaushika. Is there a conflation of personal names or descent names with gotra?

To what do you refer when you say 'real history'? None of these accounts are real history, they are fable and myth, perhaps with a core historical basis, but not by themselves history.

all of above share their surnames and gotra with brahmins, we have no doubt that these are true Kshatriyas.

That is not by itself an indication of being true kshatriya. There are others who share Brahmin gotra names, without that signifying proper classification into a varna. I am Kashyapa, my mother was Maudgalya; so what?

and royal tribes of scythains were kambojas, (@Kambojaric ), kushans, palavas and indo -greeks, thracians also played big role in formation of rajput caste i believe. as indo scythians and greeks migrated and ruled north and west india for many centuries.

I am not sure the Bactrian Greeks migrated; where did you get that? From all indications, they ruled from Bactria, from Balkh, although their conquests ranged up to Kanauj.
The Kamboja were an ancient tribe who have survived till modern times, or perhaps it is merely the name that has survived. Yes, they may have formed part of the ethnic stock forming the Scythians, but to call them royal tribe is not clear to me.
And I am curious about your mention of Thracians. The Thracians were the wild people north of Macedon; they formed the peltast component of the Philippic legion, and were important in Alexander's campaigns. But where did they form a separate component of the medley of tribes that descended on Afghanistan and the trans-Indus?

Where are you getting all this from?

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Imran Khan @Joe Shearer i disagree, you can not wipe out tribes with population of millions.

What happend is mixing. Brahmins raised status of nomadic royal tribes to kshatriya status and mixed them with original kshatriyas.

Thats why a small number of rajput trives holds most of Rajasthan(Kushwaha,Bhati,chauhan) , Gujarat (Zhala, Jadeja, chudasama), Haryana (Tomar), punjab (janjua), and Malwa(Rathores). We can say that these were actually royal nomandic tribes who ruled these regions.

Brahmins took them into vedic fold by giving them status of Kshatriya (Neo Agnivanshi as @padamchen says) and mixed tgem with original arya kshatriyas thats why we find many vedic kshatriya trives in rajput ethinicity.

@Imran Khan tgere are very few surviving original kshatriya tribes in India. Well knows are Gautams, Kaushikas, Puruvanshi, kauravvanshi, Raghuvanshi etc etc.

But the funny thing is @Joe Shearer mainstream rajputs such as chauhan, rarhores etc consider them Inferior even tho these are real kshatriyas are thwy are migrants


Lol nothing wrong in being migrant.

I am a magi brahmin, my ancestors were zoroastrian priests in Persia who migrated into West India and merged with Local Brahmins based on similar culture.

Maybe @padamchen knows more about magis than me.

@Imran Khan

Chief,

This is a good alternative view. I don't agree, but he has a case.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

So basically you take a Hindu extremists POV and islamicized the characters.

You mean Abraham from KPK? The last I checked Shaikh al-Hadith wa al-Tafseer Hadhrat Moulana Mufti Muhammad Zar Wali Khan, was Alhamdulillah , a Muslim.

I am just saying archeology negates this.

Which archeology you are talking about? Indus is the most ancient of them all. There is no way those prophets of ancient were from ME.

Now find me mount ararat or one of the peaks of Ararat. If you say Himalayan I will laugh so hard.

These are all urban legends. The serious archaeologist looking for ark are focusing on takt-e-suleman mountain in particular and koh-e-suleiman range in general in Baluchistan. And the fact that Mehrgarh, the world oldest human settlement is also located nearby is a strong indicator. While you ponder over this, remember, both Babylon and Egypt came much later then Indus. Also there is no ancient civilization in Turkey. There is also on peak called Ras Nuh in Baluchistan though I don't have much information on it.

Notice how pashtun centric it is. I think you got fooled by the isis trolls.

Rather pissing in air aimlessly, I would strongly recommend to study the subject.

I didn't know ISIS got their own trolls!

You see, the gentleman buried in this clip, according to Pakhtoon own accounts was the desendant of Talut, the one mentioned in Quran, or as the west say, King Saul.

 

[El Sidd]

You mean Abraham from KPK? The last I checked Shaikh al-Hadith wa al-Tafseer Hadhrat Moulana Mufti Muhammad Zar Wali Khan, was Alhamdulillah , a Muslim.



Which archeology you are talking about? Indus is the most ancient of them all. There is no way those prophets of ancient were from ME.



These are all urban legends. The serious archaeologist looking for ark are focusing on takt-e-suleman mountain in particular and koh-e-suleiman range in general in Baluchistan. And the fact that Mehrgarh, the world oldest human settlement is also located nearby is a strong indicator. While you ponder over this, remember, both Babylon and Egypt came much later then Indus. Also there is no ancient civilization in Turkey. There is also on peak called Ras Nuh in Baluchistan though I don't have much information on it.




Rather pissing in air aimlessly, I would strongly recommend to study the subject.

I didn't know ISIS got their own trolls!

You see, the gentleman buried in this clip, according to Pakhtoon own accounts was the desendant of Talut, the one mentioned in Quran, or as the west say, King Saul.

Man this is highly debatable.

I will definitely study this now

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Man this is highly debatable.

I will definitely study this now

Everything is debatable. History is concubine in the hands of those who wrote it. However, no one can alter archeology. And archeology tell us that Indus is the grandaddy and melting pot of civilizations. With this in mind, and knowing that one lack 24 thousands prophets were send to mankind, people are hard wired in believing that middle east hold the sole claim over prophets. Archeology does not support this. Prophet hood was transfered to ME after young Abraham was forced into exile after the fire pit incident. But as we say, there is a grand plan of Allah in motion, now, the progeny of Abraham is the sole custodian of the lands which he ones was forced out.

 

[El Sidd]

Everything is debatable. History is concubine in the hands of those who wrote it. However, no one can alter archeology. And archeology tell us that Indus is the grandaddy and melting pot of civilizations. With this in mind, and knowing that one lack 24 thousands prophets were send to mankind, people are hard wired in believing that middle east hold the sole claim over prophets. Archeology does not support this. Prophet hood was transfered to ME after young Abraham was forced into exile after the fire pit incident. But as we say, there is a grand plan of Allah in motion, now, the progeny of Abraham is the sole custodian of the lands which he ones was forced out.

that is just one way of looking at it. you are still assuming that one progeny holds sway over the rest of the world. that is just not possible after the final prophet and message.

archeology puts Abraham in Ur in Sumeria not somewhere in Afghanistan. You can however argue Abraham found his way to Sumer after a migration from the Indus Valley but you are then also assuming Adam was born and brought up in the Indus and Noah ended up in Balochistan after the flood.

Archeology thus far says humans went from hunter gatherers to settlers somewhere around Turkey after finding out that wheat grows there wild and there is no need to travel for food and safety.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

that is just one way of looking at it. you are still assuming that one progeny holds sway over the rest of the world. that is just not possible after the final prophet and message.

archeology puts Abraham in Ur in Sumeria not somewhere in Afghanistan. You can however argue Abraham found his way to Sumer after a migration from the Indus Valley but you are then also assuming Adam was born and brought up in the Indus and Noah ended up in Balochistan after the flood.

Archeology thus far says humans went from hunter gatherers to settlers somewhere around Turkey after finding out that wheat grows there wild and there is no need to travel for food and safety.

You are getting wrong impression here. I am not assuming or backing what I wrote on the basis of my personal opinions. Can you deny that among the Abraham progeny most of the "known" prophets mentioned in Quran, came from, including the last one Mohammad (PBUH). The fact that Abraham was NOT an Arab, and then to suggest that he was from Arab heartland of Iraq, is like holding to straws kind of argument. And no Abraham was not from Afghanistan but Indus basin, aka Pakistan. Adam born and brought up in Indus? He was born and brought up in heavens and later made to descend to Earth in the region which is now called as sub continent and Indus being the only and most ancient in this region and beyond, its logical to conclude that this Indus basin is the region where Adam direct desendants took shelter and multilied before heading in different directions. The fact the after Indus, came Babylon and then Egypt, you got a very visible flow of civilization from east to west direction. And Noah didnt end up in Indus. He was from Indus because this misconception that Ark was some sort of Cruise liner that will go on some voyage, far from it, it was a floating object, which in all probability was tossing and floating around the same region from which it took off. And that is why in Hinduism he is mentioned as Manu becuase these people are the nearest to us geographically, same story of delgue, Ark and progenitor of Humanity.

If humnaity started their settlement in Turkey, then geographically speaking, why Indus , which is the furthest away from Turkey is the oldest civilization known to mankind? Shouldnt it be Babylon or Egypt which is just down south to Turkey? The biggest Irony with this logic is, that Turkey itself doesnt have ancient civilization.

 

[El Sidd]

You are getting wrong impression here. I am not assuming or backing what I wrote on the basis of my personal opinions. Can you deny that among the Abraham progeny most of the "known" prophets mentioned in Quran, came from, including the last one Mohammad (PBUH). The fact that Abraham was NOT an Arab, and then to suggest that he was from Arab heartland of Iraq, is like holding to straws kind of argument. And no Abraham was not from Afghanistan but Indus basin, aka Pakistan. Adam born and brought up in Indus? He was born and brought up in heavens and later made to descend to Earth in the region which is now called as sub continent and Indus being the only and most ancient in this region and beyond, its logical to conclude that this Indus basin is the region where Adam direct desendants took shelter and multilied before heading in different directions. The fact the after Indus, came Babylon and then Egypt, you got a very visible flow of civilization from east to west direction. And Noah didnt end up in Indus. He was from Indus because this misconception that Ark was some sort of Cruise liner that will go on some voyage, far from it, it was a floating object, which in all probability was tossing and floating around the same region from which it took off. And that is why in Hinduism he is mentioned as Manu becuase these people are the nearest to us geographically, same story of delgue, Ark and progenitor of Humanity.

If humnaity started their settlement in Turkey, then geographically speaking, why Indus , which is the furthest away from Turkey is the oldest civilization known to mankind? Shouldnt it be Babylon or Egypt which is just down south to Turkey? The biggest Irony with this logic is, that Turkey itself doesnt have ancient civilization.

Abraham was a semite. His sons Ishmael and Ishaq are the Jews and the Arabs.

Time difference between Noah and Abraham is too long.

Indus, Egypt, Euphrates and Yellow river are the only 4 civilization of the world. or as people say ham sam jafreth and the chinese.

remember when you are told to go to china it is considered a civilization not comparable to you. they are different. not from us as the message make it out to be as per my understanding.

Adam and Eve at the dried up river Eden in what is now strait of hormuz makes better sense along with Bahrain as the original archeological marshes or garden of eden.

when i said turkey i meant the people or wanderers of ancient turkey settled along the euphrates.

most of the ancient abrahamic archeology bases itself on the previous books which survive in many forms and variations. the old and the new testaments.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Abraham was a semite. His sons Ishmael and Ishaq are the Jews and the Arabs.

Time difference between Noah and Abraham is too long.

Indus, Egypt, Euphrates and Yellow river are the only 4 civilization of the world. or as people say ham sam jafreth and the chinese.

remember when you are told to go to china it is considered a civilization not comparable to you. they are different. not from us as the message make it out to be as per my understanding.

Adam and Eve at the dried up river Eden in what is now strait of hormuz makes better sense along with Bahrain as the original archeological marshes or garden of eden.

when i said turkey i meant the people or wanderers of ancient turkey settled along the euphrates.

most of the ancient abrahamic archeology bases itself on the previous books which survive in many forms and variations. the old and the new testaments.

If you give a thought to the greater scheme of things, the creation of Pakistan, and why the Sufis, the wallis, the awalias , the Qutubs of this world keep on repeating and emphasising the spiritual dimensions of Pakistan and its creation, whatever I have said will start to make sense. Pakistan is just not a country but a phenomena, deep rooted in history with its fundamental role to play in all religious prophecies of future, be it Islamic, Christianity or Judaism.

 

[El Sidd]

If you give a thought to the greater scheme of things, the creation of Pakistan, and why the Sufis, the wallis, the awalias , the Qutubs of this world keep on repeating and emphasising the spiritual dimensions of Pakistan and its creation, whatever I have said will start to make sense. Pakistan is just not a country but a phenomena, deep rooted in history with its fundamental role to play in all religious prophecies of future, be it Islamic, Christianity or Judaism.

The stated dogma can be solved if you understand the shift of knowledge eastwards ever since 50H.

All the other races have had their chance at glory apart from the Indus.

I am sorry but as good as the Adam in Indus theory sounds delightful it has no academic value.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

The stated dogma can be solved if you understand the shift of knowledge eastwards ever since 50H.

All the other races have had their chance at glory apart from the Indus.

I am sorry but as good as the Adam in Indus theory sounds delightful it has no academic value.

Good on you, I am not here to educate rather show you the logical and critical way of thinking.

And the theory doesn't require certificate of approval from you and similar kind.