Was there a Kshatriya Holocaust on the subcontinent ?

[Indus Pakistan]

There was no Indus Valley at that time;

True. But what we call Indus did exist. Can we translate any terms or must we complicate matters for no gain. The term "America" is only 500 years old. Does this mean that term cannot be used with regards to that continent prior to 1492? If talking about the American continent with referance to year 1400 do we avoid using "Americas"?

Anyway you guys continue in your discussion. I don't want to re-direct this discussion. I will just follow it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The biggest problem in solving these puzzles remain in our interpretation of time as perceived by us.
As far as the IVC collapse is concerned once again it is just our own conjecture. Specially the concept of the twin river running parallel to Indus in modern day India. Now that river i think it is called saraswati or something went dry due to seismic activity up north which disrupted the flow of the river.

But the beauty of it all is, no one really knows what happened to the people. No one can tell their story.

Now this debate is different as to what the Puranas and Mahabharata say. These are ancient books recollecting stories of the past with no definite time period given. Sure they may point out to tribal warfare and disharmony among the folks before the great war or calamity.

Just a question. What do you think the polar shift 12 thousand years ago plays into this? The polar shift and the last ice age did bring huge water in land and shaped the new climate.

Very interesting points. I have to confess with some embarrassment that I had no idea that you had thought about these matters and had such a grip.

First things first (the most interesting point is in your last paragraph).

The biggest difficulty with Indian history is the total indifference of the ancient Indian to historical narrations and to annals of any kind. In contrast, Chinese and Islamic accounts are relatively easy to follow because of a great sense of the passage of time; as the (somewhat sour) joke goes, while the rest of the world asks,"What is the time?", the Indian asks,"What is time?" A truly face-palm moment.

You are right about the speculation about the end of the IVC. Nobody knows; there are different theories and schools of thought and nobody has really established any clarity. All that we know is that Mortimer Wheeler was PROBABLY wrong and the Indo-Aryan speaking migrants had little or nothing to do with it; perhaps they merged with the descendants of the culture in the Yamuna and Ganges basins, where some of them MAY have migrated. The pottery seems to hint in that direction.

About the Saraswati, be careful; you are now in bhakt territory. They like to think of the passages in the Rg Veda referring to the Saraswati as referring to an Indian river, that existed sort of parallel to the Indus, and that contributed greatly to the fertility of the land around that and the Indus, and made large urban agglomerations possible. Other (European) scholars point to the Haraothi (Persian/ Iranian pronunciation of the same word) which is the name of a river in Afghanistan, in the Helmand region. There is some reason to believe that a seasonal river called the Ghaggar, that flows from the Sivaliks and dries up in the Rajasthan desert, earlier enjoyed the water flow of the Yamuna that fell into this river system. It was only with the change in flow of the Yamuna (your reference to seismic activity) that the Ghaggar became a thin, attenuated stream. One can only imagine the impact that copious supply of water might have had in the IVC region, considering that the remnants of rhinoceri and elephants have been found there. It was possibly a lush, fertile land, rather like the Ganges valley of today, and forested thickly; that points to the importance of the river as a mode of communications, and to the vulnerability of the entire culture to the falling away of the irrigating and transporting power of the river (actually, the river system).

Your evaluation of the Mahabharata/ Ramayana epics is about as much as can be said about their historical value.

I would like to write separately about the impact of the Ice Age and its retreat.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Probably not in this region. There are no signs of flooding in the IVC per se. Most of those accounts are from Mesopotamia.

PS: Two afterthoughts: there is geological evidence of floods of this sweeping nature in Mesopotamia. Manu was a descriptive name given to several possible living beings.

One of the confusing and exasperating things about trying to follow a thread through the literature, the only option that we have for the period 1500 BC (a speculative date itself) through to the life and times of the Buddha and Mahavira is the existence of names referring to whole families: I hesitate to mention names without refreshing my memory, because the bhakt is a dangerous animal once aroused.

IVC and its remains are perfect example of flood/tsunami aftermath. All buried and excavated 10 feet underground. Its not something alien to Indus region, few years ago, the landmass size of Italy within Pakistan was underwater due to flooding.

Leave Islam, Christianity or Judisam aside. Explain this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_(Hinduism)

If a christian in furthest corner of the earth somewhere in south America know who Noah was, I refuse to believe that you lot next door to us wont know. The striking similarity not only in the story about the man but name given itself, cannot, should not be ignored.

 

[El Sidd]

Very interesting points. I have to confess with some embarrassment that I had no idea that you had thought about these matters and had such a grip.

First things first (the most interesting point is in your last paragraph).

The biggest difficulty with Indian history is the total indifference of the ancient Indian to historical narrations and to annals of any kind. In contrast, Chinese and Islamic accounts are relatively easy to follow because of a great sense of the passage of time; as the (somewhat sour) joke goes, while the rest of the world asks,"What is the time?", the Indian asks,"What is time?" A truly face-palm moment.

You are right about the speculation about the end of the IVC. Nobody knows; there are different theories and schools of thought and nobody has really established any clarity. All that we know is that Mortimer Wheeler was PROBABLY wrong and the Indo-Aryan speaking migrants had little or nothing to do with it; perhaps they merged with the descendants of the culture in the Yamuna and Ganges basins, where some of them MAY have migrated. The pottery seems to hint in that direction.

About the Saraswati, be careful; you are now in bhakt territory. They like to think of the passages in the Rg Veda referring to the Saraswati as referring to an Indian river, that existed sort of parallel to the Indus, and that contributed greatly to the fertility of the land around that and the Indus, and made large urban agglomerations possible. Other (European) scholars point to the Haraothi (Persian/ Iranian pronunciation of the same word) which is the name of a river in Afghanistan, in the Helmand region. There is some reason to believe that a seasonal river called the Ghaggar, that flows from the Sivaliks and dries up in the Rajasthan desert, earlier enjoyed the water flow of the Yamuna that fell into this river system. It was only with the change in flow of the Yamuna (your reference to seismic activity) that the Ghaggar became a thin, attenuated stream. One can only imagine the impact that copious supply of water might have had in the IVC region, considering that the remnants of rhinoceri and elephants have been found there. It was possibly a lush, fertile land, rather like the Ganges valley of today, and forested thickly; that points to the importance of the river as a mode of communications, and to the vulnerability of the entire culture to the falling away of the irrigating and transporting power of the river (actually, the river system).

Your evaluation of the Mahabharata/ Ramayana epics is about as much as can be said about their historical value.

I would like to write separately about the impact of the Ice Age and its retreat.

There are certain things one should take notice when studying any literature. The most important is language. It defines culture and governance. The sophisticated the language is the more clear the law can be written and governance made easy. the more vibrant that culture can become yet having a firm grip of the core identities.

Now as far as the twin river of Indus is concerned. There still runs the underground river and people still use it. The seismic activity up north diverted the water but what was once a sizeable river became a stream. The people who lived and still do in parts of Rajhastan and the parallel Indus belt came up with ingenious water conservation methods admired greatly by even the most modern traveler in those areas. Something quite similar to what the Cambodians or lets say Angkor Wat used in that same time period.

What interests me in all this is the human intelligence which developed in seemingly disconnected societies with different culture and language but the same fundamentals. Quite interesting indeed when you put the recent medical experiments into light that even feral children have similar words and theories even brought up in isolation and thousands of miles apart from each other. I name it the sub conscious intellect of being a human.

Now that Aryan theory is completely different. The theory was developed more as a ideological warfare by the evangelical colonial rather than academics.

The problem remains if a culture or a group of people cannot get their history straight or find a consensus someone else does it for them and that is how dive and rule worked for the British.

 

[Joe Shearer]

IVC and its remains are perfect example of flood/tsunami aftermath. All buried and excavated 10 feet underground. Its not something alien to Indus region, few years ago, the landmass size of Italy within Pakistan was underwater due to flooding.

You really need to understand how and why ancient sites have to be excavated. Troy was such a site, and they have found multiple layers of culture and civilisation. So, too, were Greek cities, or Rome itself. This flooding in Mesopotamia, that is borne out by external evidence, has nothing to do with the cities of the Indus Valley. And occasional floods have happened and continue to happen in every location. A landmass being under water due to flooding is not by itself any kind of proof of Noah's Flood, or of it having been a factor.

Leave Islam, Christianity or Judisam aside. Explain this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manu_(Hinduism)

Do you understand what a myth is?

If a christian in furthest corner of the earth somewhere in south America know who Noah was, I refuse to believe that you lot next door to us wont know. The striking similarity not only in the story about the man but name given itself, cannot, should not be ignored.

Christians in south America know about Noah because there is an elaborate description in the Old Testament about Noah; there is no other source for his knowing about Noah, no native tradition in south America, not among the ethnic tribes from that location.

In Indian tradition, there is the story of the Great Flood, that was marked by the coming of one of the avatars of Vishnu. If we are to go by that, we need to go by the others as well: this was the fish avatar, Matsya, followed by Kurma, turtle, Varaha, the boar, Narasimha, the half-man half-lion, Vamana, the dwarf, Parasurama, Rama with the parasu, the axe, Rama, the protagonist of the Ramayana, Krishna, the protagonist of the Mahabharata and of the Bhagavat Gita within that, Balaram, who shared his godhood, and the avatar to come, Kalki.

While your effort to link the flood to Indian tradition is laudable, we are then asked to take all the other nine into account.

Thanks, but no thanks.

There are certain things one should take notice when studying any literature. The most important is language. It defines culture and governance. The sophisticated the language is the more clear the law can be written and governance made easy. the more vibrant that culture can become yet having a firm grip of the core identities.

Now as far as the twin river of Indus is concerned. There still runs the underground river and people still use it. The seismic activity up north diverted the water but what was once a sizeable river became a stream. The people who lived and still do in parts of Rajhastan and the parallel Indus belt came up with ingenious water conservation methods admired greatly by even the most modern traveler in those areas. Something quite similar to what the Cambodians or lets say Angkor Wat used in that same time period.

What interests me in all this is the human intelligence which developed in seemingly disconnected societies with different culture and language but the same fundamentals. Quite interesting indeed when you put the recent medical experiments into light that even feral children have similar words and theories even brought up in isolation and thousands of miles apart from each other. I name it the sub conscious intellect of being a human.

Have you read Chomsky on linguistics? In view of what you have just written, it might interest you.

Now that Aryan theory is completely different. The theory was developed more as a ideological warfare by the evangelical colonial rather than academics.

The problem remains if a culture or a group of people cannot get their history straight or find a consensus someone else does it for them and that is how dive and rule worked for the British.

While I greatly appreciate your post, I don't agree with the last two paragraphs, for the simple reason that the British (more than them, the Germans) merely discovered the parallels with other cultural developments in other parts of the world. As far as the Indians themselves were concerned, they had completely lost touch with their cultural and linguistic development, even to the extent of not being able to draw the links between Indo-Aryan, Sanskrit, Prakrit and the currently spoken languages of north India without someone rubbing their faces in it. There was no consensus, there was simply discovery and relation to the original subjects.

Much of the associated nationalistic claptrap was British policy, no doubt about it; the Hunter Commission Report, for instance, has its own importance and you might be intrigued to find out what it was. So, too, Risley's work on castes; that, too, froze a flexible system, that had hardened from the seventh century onwards, but hardened with much flexibility built in, into a cement overcoat on society.

 

[El Sidd]

Have you read Chomsky on linguistics? In view of what you have just written, it might interest you.



While I greatly appreciate your post, I don't agree with the last two paragraphs, for the simple reason that the British (more than them, the Germans) merely discovered the parallels with other cultural developments in other parts of the world. As far as the Indians themselves were concerned, they had completely lost touch with their cultural and linguistic development, even to the extent of not being able to draw the links between Indo-Aryan, Sanskrit, Prakrit and the currently spoken languages of north India without someone rubbing their faces in it. There was no consensus, there was simply discovery and relation to the original subjects.

Much of the associated nationalistic claptrap was British policy, no doubt about it; the Hunter Commission Report, for instance, has its own importance and you might be intrigued to find out what it was. So, too, Risley's work on castes; that, too, froze a flexible system, that had hardened from the seventh century onwards, but hardened with much flexibility built in, into a cement overcoat on society.

People also have postulated that the ivc was more of a oral society than a written one. Though that may help solve many puzzles but it also raises some very interesting questions. The oral tradition thought can only succeed if you are migrating out of ivc than into ivc as with the aryan invasion theory.

And again you have to understand whatever the British or Germans cooked up in the sub continent was part of the great loot as they say. The biblical treasure hunt or the old testament treasure hunt. That is the reason that your time frame doesn't match someone else's time frame.

For me the solution to the mystery lies somewhere South. The question is why is this a Taboo or suppressed?

Don't judge the depth of water with just your reflection as my mother says.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

You really need to understand how and why ancient sites have to be excavated. Troy was such a site, and they have found multiple layers of culture and civilisation. So, too, were Greek cities, or Rome itself. This flooding in Mesopotamia, that is borne out by external evidence, has nothing to do with the cities of the Indus Valley. And occasional floods have happened and continue to happen in every location. A landmass being under water due to flooding is not by itself any kind of proof of Noah's Flood, or of it having been a factor.

You first need to understand that we are not talking about some random sites here and there rather whole empire/civilization buried under ground. All of them had to be excavated and Indus being the last of the great civilizations to be discovered, albeit by pure accident, its has to be an event of biblical proportion to wipe a civilization the size of Indus so much so that it was not only removed from the existence but human memory and history as well. No one knew about Indus till by chance the brits found it laying rail tracks in Harrapa. Indus at its peak was three times bigger and more powerful then both Babylon and Egypt combined. You got a civlization which was bigger, powerful, more ancient then other two (Babylon and Egypt), yet for it to disappear in the fashion it did, it can only point to a sudden and extreme event.

Do you understand what a myth is?

Your religion is a myth to you? I take you are atheist?

Christians in south America know about Noah because there is an elaborate description in the Old Testament about Noah; there is no other source for his knowing about Noah, no native tradition in south America, not among the ethnic tribes from that location.

In Indian tradition, there is the story of the Great Flood, that was marked by the coming of one of the avatars of Vishnu. If we are to go by that, we need to go by the others as well: this was the fish avatar, Matsya, followed by Kurma, turtle, Varaha, the boar, Narasimha, the half-man half-lion, Vamana, the dwarf, Parasurama, Rama with the parasu, the axe, Rama, the protagonist of the Ramayana, Krishna, the protagonist of the Mahabharata and of the Bhagavat Gita within that, Balaram, who shared his godhood, and the avatar to come, Kalki.

While your effort to link the flood to Indian tradition is laudable, we are then asked to take all the other nine into account.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Manu is a term found with various meanings in Hinduism. In early texts, it refers to the archetypal man, or to the first man (progenitor of humanity)

In Abrahmic religions, Nuh/Noah is also the progenitor of humanity , albiet after Adam.

In Islamic traditions, Adam was brought down to Earth after his ejection from Heaven, in the region which we now refer to as sub-continent.

Islamic scholars in Pakistan have researched the Abraham was born and raised somewhere in the area which is known as Kyber Pakhtonkhawa before he was forced to migrate towards what we now called middle east. Quran mentioned that the Ancestors of Hebrews were with Noah in the arc. Aristotle researched the origins of Hebrews and came to conclusion that the "wanderers of east" were a tribe of Indus, dislodged after the great deluge.

The story of Brahma and Srasvati in Hinduism has got some traction with people who link it with Abraham and Sarah. I havent found any prophet after Abraham who might have some similarity in Hinduism which suites with this notion of Abraham moving to middle east and with him the prophet hood from Indus basin to the greater middle east. There is no equalent of Ishmael, Isaac, Moses etc. in Hinduism who were the progeny of Abraham, atleast not to my knowledge. What I am trying to get to is that prophets of ancients who we reconigse as pious people, elevated to the status of gods by Hinduism, have got links to this region of Indus and the chain of events in religious history can be traced back to Indus.

Having said that, you are fully entitled to your opinion , but atleast you can take your solace that Pakistanis in ancient times were evil people and had to be destroyed by god himself.

 

[El Sidd]

You first need to understand that we are not talking about some random sites here and there rather whole empire/civilization buried under ground. All of them had to be excavated and Indus being the last of the great civilizations to be discovered, albeit by pure accident, its has to be an event of biblical proportion to wipe a civilization the size of Indus so much so that it was not only removed from the existence but human memory and history as well. No one knew about Indus till by chance the brits found it laying rail tracks in Harrapa. Indus at its peak was three times bigger and more powerful then both Babylon and Egypt combined. You got a civlization which was bigger, powerful, more ancient then other two (Babylon and Egypt), yet for it to disappear in the fashion it did, it can only point to a sudden and extreme event.




Your religion is a myth to you? I take you are atheist?





Manu is a term found with various meanings in Hinduism. In early texts, it refers to the archetypal man, or to the first man (progenitor of humanity)

In Abrahmic religions, Nuh/Noah is also the progenitor of humanity , albiet after Adam.

In Islamic traditions, Adam was brought down to Earth after his ejection from Heaven, in the region which we now refer to as sub-continent.

Islamic scholars in Pakistan have researched the Abraham was born and raised somewhere in the area which is known as Kyber Pakhtonkhawa before he was forced to migrate towards what we now called middle east. Quran mentioned that the Ancestors of Hebrews were with Noah in the arc. Aristotle researched the origins of Hebrews and came to conclusion that the "wanderers of east" were a tribe of Indus, dislodged after the great deluge.

The story of Brahma and Srasvati in Hinduism has got some traction with people who link it with Abraham and Sarah. I havent found any prophet after Abraham who might have some similarity in Hinduism which suites with this notion of Abraham moving to middle east and with him the prophet hood from Indus basin to the greater middle east. There is no equalent of Ishmael, Isaac, Moses etc. in Hinduism who were the progeny of Abraham, atleast not to my knowledge. What I am trying to get to is that prophets of ancients who we reconigse as pious people, elevated to the status of gods by Hinduism, have got links to this region of Indus and the chain of events in religious history can be traced back to Indus.

Having said that, you are fully entitled to your opinion , but atleast you can take your solace that Pakistanis in ancient times were evil people and had to be destroyed by god himself.

That is just not correct.

If you try and put Abraham in kpk that will again create a timeline problem? Where does Noah fits and Adam goes?

That probably rose from the story that Adam was born in Sri Lanka because of a certain footstep.

I don't see it man.

How do you put Out of Africa and the DNA evidence.


I am all ears

You first need to understand that we are not talking about some random sites here and there rather whole empire/civilization buried under ground. All of them had to be excavated and Indus being the last of the great civilizations to be discovered, albeit by pure accident, its has to be an event of biblical proportion to wipe a civilization the size of Indus so much so that it was not only removed from the existence but human memory and history as well. No one knew about Indus till by chance the brits found it laying rail tracks in Harrapa. Indus at its peak was three times bigger and more powerful then both Babylon and Egypt combined. You got a civlization which was bigger, powerful, more ancient then other two (Babylon and Egypt), yet for it to disappear in the fashion it did, it can only point to a sudden and extreme event.




Your religion is a myth to you? I take you are atheist?





Manu is a term found with various meanings in Hinduism. In early texts, it refers to the archetypal man, or to the first man (progenitor of humanity)

In Abrahmic religions, Nuh/Noah is also the progenitor of humanity , albiet after Adam.

In Islamic traditions, Adam was brought down to Earth after his ejection from Heaven, in the region which we now refer to as sub-continent.

Islamic scholars in Pakistan have researched the Abraham was born and raised somewhere in the area which is known as Kyber Pakhtonkhawa before he was forced to migrate towards what we now called middle east. Quran mentioned that the Ancestors of Hebrews were with Noah in the arc. Aristotle researched the origins of Hebrews and came to conclusion that the "wanderers of east" were a tribe of Indus, dislodged after the great deluge.

The story of Brahma and Srasvati in Hinduism has got some traction with people who link it with Abraham and Sarah. I havent found any prophet after Abraham who might have some similarity in Hinduism which suites with this notion of Abraham moving to middle east and with him the prophet hood from Indus basin to the greater middle east. There is no equalent of Ishmael, Isaac, Moses etc. in Hinduism who were the progeny of Abraham, atleast not to my knowledge. What I am trying to get to is that prophets of ancients who we reconigse as pious people, elevated to the status of gods by Hinduism, have got links to this region of Indus and the chain of events in religious history can be traced back to Indus.

Having said that, you are fully entitled to your opinion , but atleast you can take your solace that Pakistanis in ancient times were evil people and had to be destroyed by god himself.

You may argue that ivc was destroyed or cursed by God as they say.

I will give that a good thought that the destruction of ivc can be traced in Islamic history. But not by Noah's flood then

I also know that the Persian King Nimrod to be great grandson of Noah.

You can also put Adam in Sri Lanka as well if you dot the migration pattern out of Africa and DNA pattern. It may work.

But try giving two ancient hidden rivers near Bahrain for a thought. That seems more reasonable.


You can see pashtuns as the lost tribe of the bani israel but can you claim other way around?

 

[Alternative]

there were kshatriya tribes in pakistan and afghanistan as well.

and sapta saraswat means indus valley (+ old yamuna and sarasvati)

So freakin call it "Indus Valley" instead coming up with your own crap.

Correct ancient designation is Sapta Sindhu... that is, land of seven rivers which comprise of 5 rivers of Punjab and Indus and Sarawati (now dried up Gahhar Hakra river).
Sapta Sarawat is not Indus Valley or any other region by any stretch of imagination. Mahabharata do name a Tirth as Sapta Sarawat but thats all.

thats what brahmins are called since ancient times.

do you have any prob elm with that ?

Ancients called it Sapta Sindhu NOT Sapta Sarawat.

 

[Joe Shearer]

People also have postulated that the ivc was more of a oral society than a written one. Though that may help solve many puzzles but it also raises some very interesting questions. The oral tradition thought can only succeed if you are migrating out of ivc than into ivc as with the aryan invasion theory.

Yes, that is an interesting hypothesis; incidentally, while the Aryan Migration Theory, the much more probable version of the Aryan Invasion Theory, has found recent validation in genetic studies, the theory that the Aryan-speaking migrants entered the IVC has been discredited decades ago. There are too many discrepancies in time-lines.

And again you have to understand whatever the British or Germans cooked up in the sub continent was part of the great loot as they say. The biblical treasure hunt or the old testament treasure hunt. That is the reason that your time frame doesn't match someone else's time frame.

This is difficult to understand.

Indian history takes its timelines from 326 BC, that is known to both sides with some certainty, and that helps us to synchronise our discovered events with the time-lines known for the rest of the world. This, down until the time of the Islamic invasions, when dates and events were relatively more carefully recorded than earlier.

What the British interpretation of Indian history and culture had to do with the 'biblical treasure hunt', or the 'old testament treasure hunt', is entirely unclear.

The British, or more correctly, the Europeans, brought in the following:

1. The parallels between Sanskrit and other languages of the Indo-European family of languages;
2. The question of the origin of the Indo-Aryan languages spoken by north Indians;
3. The reconciliation of the Puranic king-lists;
4. The date of the Buddha, and the location of his probable birth-place;
5. Identifying Ashoka with the king of the pillars named after him;
6. Identifying the Greek origin of the Gandhara sculptures;
7. Tracing the history of the Bactrian Greeks;
8. Interpreting and reading the Asokan pillars;
9. Tracing Maurya history, forgotten till then;
10. Tracing the history of the Saka-Pahlavas;
11. Tracing the history of the Kushanas;
12. Tracing the history of the Guptas;
13. Tracing the history of the Hepthalites;
14. Linking together the records of Hiuen Tsang and Fa Hien and contemporary Indian events and rulers and dynasties;
15. Tracing the history of the Tripartite Rivalry.

This is not intended to be a comprehensive narration.

NONE OF THESE WERE IN THE INDIAN CULTURAL MAP UNTIL THE BRITISH BROUGHT IT OUT.

For me the solution to the mystery lies somewhere South. The question is why is this a Taboo or suppressed?

Don't judge the depth of water with just your reflection as my mother says.

Which mystery? The IVC? Unlikely. Please take a look at contemporary analyses of history of regions of the south, especially at a book by Rajan Gurakkal (spelling?). It is something like Social Formations in South India. That puts paid to many theories.

 

[El Sidd]

Yes, that is an interesting hypothesis; incidentally, while the Aryan Migration Theory, the much more probable version of the Aryan Invasion Theory, has found recent validation in genetic studies, the theory that the Aryan-speaking migrants entered the IVC has been discredited decades ago. There are too many discrepancies in time-lines.



This is difficult to understand.

Indian history takes its timelines from 326 BC, that is known to both sides with some certainty, and that helps us to synchronise our discovered events with the time-lines known for the rest of the world. This, down until the time of the Islamic invasions, when dates and events were relatively more carefully recorded than earlier.

What the British interpretation of Indian history and culture had to do with the 'biblical treasure hunt', or the 'old testament treasure hunt', is entirely unclear.

The British, or more correctly, the Europeans, brought in the following:

1. The parallels between Sanskrit and other languages of the Indo-European family of languages;
2. The question of the origin of the Indo-Aryan languages spoken by north Indians;
3. The reconciliation of the Puranic king-lists;
4. The date of the Buddha, and the location of his probable birth-place;
5. Identifying Ashoka with the king of the pillars named after him;
6. Identifying the Greek origin of the Gandhara sculptures;
7. Tracing the history of the Bactrian Greeks;
8. Interpreting and reading the Asokan pillars;
9. Tracing Maurya history, forgotten till then;
10. Tracing the history of the Saka-Pahlavas;
11. Tracing the history of the Kushanas;
12. Tracing the history of the Guptas;
13. Tracing the history of the Hepthalites;
14. Linking together the records of Hiuen Tsang and Fa Hien and contemporary Indian events and rulers and dynasties;
15. Tracing the history of the Tripartite Rivalry.

This is not intended to be a comprehensive narration.

NONE OF THESE WERE IN THE INDIAN CULTURAL MAP UNTIL THE BRITISH BROUGHT IT OUT.



Which mystery? The IVC? Unlikely. Please take a look at contemporary analyses of history of regions of the south, especially at a book by Rajan Gurakkal (spelling?). It is something like Social Formations in South India. That puts paid to many theories.

The south.

Land connecting Sri Lanka to India.

The DNA migration patterns and the out of Africa.

Takes us back to around 30000 years from today. That is when even the Indians put the Mahabharata on a timescale. The radioactive research should probably conclude in 5 years time but nobody will notice. Only the brownies seem to care.

The 1920 fascist rise of the Brownie. But that's a different debate.

The only way one can put an Aryan theory plausible is when you DNA tests the brahmins and the pashtuns lol.

India has long claimed Jewish history as well.

The question is always separating the truth from reality if you know what i mean.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The south.

Yes, I refer you to Gurakkal. That collection of essays throws new light on the development of society in south India, specifically, in the deep south, Tamilakam.

Land connecting Sri Lanka to India.

There are land links that must have been above sea level during the Ice Age (I owe you a reply on that). During the historical period, there was no land link.

The DNA migration patterns and the out of Africa.

Until recently, the broad consensus was about an initial migration about 30,000 years ago, and another migration, from the sub-continent outwards, around 10,000 years ago. DNA patterns seemed to indicate two types, still prevalent: the Ancestral North Indian, and the Ancestral South Indian. This continues to the present day. However, even later genetic analysis indicates that there was an incursion around 1500 BC.

Would your hint be something that fits into these?

Takes us back to around 30000 years from today. That is when even the Indians put the Mahabharata on a timescale.

Such a timescale is completely imaginary, and would make us laughing stocks, except that the people who would recognise what an absurdity this is are people too polite to laugh. The Mahabharata, using chariots, drawn by horses, bearing noble archers, wielding weapons made of iron, and arrowheads of iron, shielded in casques of iron or steel, describing an established civilisation that is fully evolved, would have been quite impossible even 5,000 years ago, going by the evidence of archaeology.

Indian timescales, and Indian views of the development of the earth as it is today, are fit for laughs only.

The radioactive research should probably conclude in 5 years time but nobody will notice. Only the brownies seem to care.

What radioactive research? I know of none that is related to history, unless you intend to convey something about the carbon-dating of specific skeletons or anatomies.

The 1920 fascist rise of the Brownie. But that's a different debate.

There are resonances, but you would not understand.

The only way one can put an Aryan theory plausible is when you DNA tests the brahmins and the pashtuns lol.

The Pashtuns have long been shown to be different from the genetic make-up of the Indians. As far as the Brahmins, they, too, have been tested, and it appears that they are far more mixed a community than they would like to think.

India has long claimed Jewish history as well.

I have no idea about this, other than the bizarre Mizo claim.

The question is always separating the truth from reality if you know what i mean.

 

[Pakistani E]

This is a great thread and I have enjoyed reading nearly all of the posts on here so far, I do regret to say I do not know enough about history of the subcontinent to contribute in a great way, however one thing that did catch my attention was when you mentioned the Anu's in your post:

Now if we look to literary sources for clarification, we know from the ancient Battle of Ten Kings in RV and other sources that the Trtsus, Purus, Yadus and Matsyas got to stay in the SaptaSaaraswat out of the initial grouping of Aryan tribes while Pakthas (Pakhtoons), Parsus (Persians), Parthas (Parthians), Bhargavas (Phrygians), Drhyus, Anus, Bhalanas (Alans ?), Panis and Dahae (Scythians ?) were driven out. We also know that Trtsus and Purus merged to form the mighty Bharatas, who left their indelible mark on the culture and civilization of what passes today as Hindustan.

Basically, because some writers have attempted to link the Anu's of ancient times to the Awans and Janjuas of today:

"The Purans, however state that the whole of the Punjab was peopled by the desecendants of Anu, also called Anavas or Anuwan, which over time would naturally have been shortened to Awan (Cunningham, 1875: (V) 79-80)." Hari Singh Nalwa, "champion of the Khalsaji" (1791-1837)
By Vanit Nalwa

I know some writers have their own agendas and not all the information is reliable, but does this have any significance? If not, feel free to give it a wide berth.

EDIT: Also, some people in parts of KPK still called Awans "Ainki" or some similar word that escapes me.

 

[defence_analyst]

There are some 200 million Kashtiryas in India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You first need to understand that we are not talking about some random sites here and there rather whole empire/civilization buried under ground. All of them had to be excavated and Indus being the last of the great civilizations to be discovered, albeit by pure accident, its has to be an event of biblical proportion to wipe a civilization the size of Indus so much so that it was not only removed from the existence but human memory and history as well.

Would it have occurred to you that 3,000 years of existence in a sandy terrain would have some effect by way of covering up the remains? Even today, there is no evidence of any flood in the cities.

No one knew about Indus till by chance the brits found it laying rail tracks in Harrapa. Indus at its peak was three times bigger and more powerful then both Babylon and Egypt combined. You got a civlization which was bigger, powerful, more ancient then other two (Babylon and Egypt), yet for it to disappear in the fashion it did, it can only point to a sudden and extreme event.

That shows that you haven't really looked at the record of the excavations. If you had, you have found that there were distinct phases in the cultural development and decline. There was no catastrophic end, no sudden and extreme end.

Unfortunately, if you draw upon your own imagination to supply you the premises, your conclusions are bound to be wrong - or at least imagination-rich.

Your religion is a myth to you? I take you are atheist?

All religions, without exception, are based on myth.

Manu

is a term found with various meanings in Hinduism. In early texts, it refers to the archetypal man, or to the first man (progenitor of humanity)

In Abrahmic religions, Nuh/Noah is also the progenitor of humanity , albiet after Adam.

In Islamic traditions, Adam was brought down to Earth after his ejection from Heaven, in the region which we now refer to as sub-continent.

Neither Manu nor Adam existed. Need we waste time on this claptrap?

Islamic scholars in Pakistan have researched the Abraham was born and raised somewhere in the area which is known as Kyber Pakhtonkhawa before he was forced to migrate towards what we now called middle east. Quran mentioned that the Ancestors of Hebrews were with Noah in the arc. Aristotle researched the origins of Hebrews and came to conclusion that the "wanderers of east" were a tribe of Indus, dislodged after the great deluge.

The story of Brahma and Srasvati in Hinduism has got some traction with people who link it with Abraham and Sarah. I havent found any prophet after Abraham who might have some similarity in Hinduism which suites with this notion of Abraham moving to middle east and with him the prophet hood from Indus basin to the greater middle east. There is no equalent of Ishmael, Isaac, Moses etc. in Hinduism who were the progeny of Abraham, atleast not to my knowledge. What I am trying to get to is that prophets of ancients who we reconigse as pious people, elevated to the status of gods by Hinduism, have got links to this region of Indus and the chain of events in religious history can be traced back to Indus.

Thank you for sharing your beliefs with us. It was very interesting.

Having said that, you are fully entitled to your opinion , but atleast you can take your solace that Pakistanis in ancient times were evil people and had to be destroyed by god himself.

How quaint. Did he use his hands (I assume that he was male) or did his toes suffice?