Vietnamese nationalist fabrications

[EastSea]

They lived under the shadow of Chinese culture and civilization so like some Koreans they seek to place themselves as equal to Chinese when in fact they were on the receiving end.
They are a pitiful bunch having to rely on insulting others and making facts up to appear like they are educated.

You are typical Mr. Ah Q of China. do read Lu Sun ?

 

[Grand Historian]

Your English not so fair enough, when your ID stated that you are living in USA. What do you do there in USA ?

Its none of you business what I do in the US.

But Yangzi is more popular on internet.

No it isn't.

Why ? Han Ji is foreigner written characters. I learnt futong hua for a short time. My Han-Nom software does it more time to finish my comment.

Because the original text was written in Hanzi,if you cannot accept that then you are in denial.

I've doubt your Putong Hua is of any value your constant mistakes are noticed by Chinese members.

No evidence for that our author of Dai Viet Su Ky is wrong, when stated that North of Van Lang is Dongding Hu. It mean that Ba and Shu, Wu Yue etc is out of territory of Van Lang of Hung kings. bro.

Why would EastSea and Niceguy post this map then?

When did Xi,Dian,Minyue etc recognize a Hung sovereign?

You made the claim now prove it.

Don't guess nothing here bro, Van lang was country of ancient tribes,very flexible. it was an alliance of tribes, rather than a conventional state. We have our proverb " One native people is equivalent to one bag of Kinh people"

You still can't answer me why bronze drums were associated with "barbarians".

What could Han invaders do when they invaded in to our land ? burning and destroying what they could seen first. What Chinese PLA has been done when they attacked Vietnam 1979. Same story repeated.

Prove that there were Vietnamese texts before Ma Yuan invaded.

Why ? when I can read it in Vietnamese version. What is different here ?

If you can't read Hanzi then you are not qualified to speak about Chinese history simple as that.

I answered to the guy, he is deaf.

You haven't answered anything,all you do is mislead people and refuse to provide sources.

He he, you are funny boy. Luo Yue of An Duong Vuong was annexed to Nam Yue by Zhao Tuo. When Nan Yue was conqured by Han Dynasty, Jiaozhi pu established.

Can you answer my question ? when is JiaoZhi pu divided in to Jiao Zhou and Guang Zhou ?

You just proved my claim,I claimed that Zhao Tuo annexed the Vietnamese and the Qin didn't showing that the original territory of Nanyue did not include Jiaozhi.

How am I supposed to know what was going on in the minds of the Han administrators 2,000 years ago?

Ou Luo is still under control of An Duong Vuong.

And Shu Pan is from Shu a Sinicized state,so you were ruled by foreigners.

You are big liar, kid.
Pls to read Dai Viet Su Ky toan Thu in Han zi, it stated that Viet Thuong is one commandary of Hung Vuong.

And that's absolute bull,Viet Thuong in Han era texts never mention Van Lang showing that the Dai Viet su ky toan thu is lying again.

You are funny boy, grand historian with small brain and knowledge.

Yes more ad hominems does this stoke your ego?

You have provided nothing at all.

our ancestors no need recognize of Hans in this time. we are not boring about that. Just a champs betrayed Hing King did that.

Backtracking are we?

You stated in the Shui Jing Zhu there was information that the Baiyue had a Hung King now prove it.

You could do washing plates in Chinese Restaurant in US with your English.

Even if my English is that poor,I would still me making more money then Vietnamese.

What kind of analogy you said here ? for trolling ?

How is this trolling?

I clearly stated that you can not generalize an entire language family by one branch.

For example Cantonese is clearly always a Sinitic language,however not all Sino Tibetan languages are Cantonese.

Only idiot in Zhong Yuan copied the word Sông" "Chó" " Chết" from Vietnamese .

Another bold lie,the researchers said the words were adopted from Austroasiactics not Vietnamese.

Modern Vietnamese language is one language in Austro- Asiatic language family.

Doesn't matter if Vietnamese is Austroasiatic this doesn't mean all Austroasiatic languages are Vietnamese.

Who is the elite you said here ? such loan words from middle time from Sino-Tibetan language don't change the nature of our language which belong to Austro-Asiatic language family.

You don't understand what elite means?

Read John Phan's papers and you will learn that Kinh Vietnamese switched from a Southwestern Chinese language to a Muong language.

When you say all such craps, I say you are funny boy, OK ?

You're the one engaging in insulting behavior don't deflect this on me.

Do you know who is C.J.S Forbes, E. Kuhn and H. Maspero ?

Don't know. I think is best for you when you could keep a silent, kid.

You just spelled your own downfall.

You have not quoted a single text from these men,H. Maspero disagrees that the Van Lang existed.

H. Maspero claims that the names of the 15 division of Van Lang originated no later then the late Tang dynasty.

H. Maspero also claims that Hung kings is a scribal error of Lac, and they are fake.
What’s so “Colonial” about Colonial-Era Scholarship? | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog

Quote them then,if you are so arrogant then quote them for the world to see.

I'm really boring when reading such troll, kid.

Right,coming from someone who can't even quote Hanzi,conflates Austroasiatic language family as entirely Vietnamese,making wide claims then floundering when he can't prove them and engages in insults.

You are typical Mr. Ah Q of China. do read Lu Sun ?

@Hu Songshan this member has not only insulted me but other Chinese members in other threads.

 

[Grand Historian]

actually, only north Chinese are considered as Han Chinese. other ethnics including Cantonese, Manchus and Mongols are Non-Hans. It came because the Han ruled Vietnam for almost 1,000 years. The Han ruled both China and Vietnam.

China was called as northern country, while Vietnam southern country. Chinese as northerner, while we southerner. In this context, we are at the same level as our brothers and sisters in Canton. We both are southerner. The northerner controlled the politics, while southerner dominated business.

in a history book, I found Chinese were called as "men of the Tang". I will need to search why we called you so.

perhaps @Grand Historian knows?

I can't believe you would stoop so low to make up history like your Vietnamese compatriots.

Cantonese are considered Han,by the Ming dynasty all Southerners were considered Han as well as Northerners.

Some Southern Chinese call themselves Tang ren that because of the splendor of the Tang dynasty and where a hefty amount of migrants came to Southern China.

Japanese called Chinese Kara in ie Tang ren because originally high Japanese civilization flowed from China through Korea so Kara(Japanese pronunciation for Gaya) was reused to label the Chinese.

A similar example would be nomads labeling China as a previous dynasty ie Xiongnu still calling Chinese Han even though it had already fallen or Khitans calling the Song dynasty Han. The Chinese did not originally call themselves Han rather Hua or the ruling dynasty ie Tang ren,Song ren etc. Out of geopolitcal pressure Zhu Yuanzhang decided to use the Han ethnoym to include the Sinitic speakers of Southern and Northern China while excluding Semu ie Arab,Mongols,Bohai,Khitans and Jurchens.

Cantonese never viewed themselves as the same as Vietnamese.

 

[Viet]

I can't believe you would stoop so low to make up history like your Vietnamese compatriots.

Cantonese are considered Han,by the Ming dynasty all Southerners were considered Han as well as Northerners.

Some Southern Chinese call themselves Tang ren that because of the splendor of the Tang dynasty and where a hefty amount of migrants came to Southern China.

Japanese called Chinese Kara in ie Tang ren because originally high Japanese civilization flowed from China through Korea so Kara(Japanese pronunciation for Gaya) was reused to label the Chinese.

A similar example would be nomads labeling China as a previous dynasty ie Xiongnu still calling Chinese Han even though it had already fallen or Khitans calling the Song dynasty Han. The Chinese did not originally call themselves Han rather Hua or the ruling dynasty ie Tang ren,Song ren etc. Out of geopolitcal pressure Zhu Yuanzhang decided to use the Han ethnoym to include the Sinitic speakers of Southern and Northern China while excluding Semu ie Arab,Mongols,Bohai,Khitans and Jurchens.

Cantonese never viewed themselves as the same as Vietnamese.

hey hey hey...I compiled all the things what the majority people of Vietnam think about China and Chinese.

Not neccessary reflecting 100 per cent of my thoughts.

 

[Snomannen]

I can't believe you would stoop so low to make up history like your Vietnamese compatriots.

Cantonese are considered Han,by the Ming dynasty all Southerners were considered Han as well as Northerners.

Some Southern Chinese call themselves Tang ren that because of the splendor of the Tang dynasty and where a hefty amount of migrants came to Southern China.

Japanese called Chinese Kara in ie Tang ren because originally high Japanese civilization flowed from China through Korea so Kara(Japanese pronunciation for Gaya) was reused to label the Chinese.

A similar example would be nomads labeling China as a previous dynasty ie Xiongnu still calling Chinese Han even though it had already fallen or Khitans calling the Song dynasty Han. The Chinese did not originally call themselves Han rather Hua or the ruling dynasty ie Tang ren,Song ren etc. Out of geopolitcal pressure Zhu Yuanzhang decided to use the Han ethnoym to include the Sinitic speakers of Southern and Northern China while excluding Semu ie Arab,Mongols,Bohai,Khitans and Jurchens.

Cantonese never viewed themselves as the same as Vietnamese.

He is just talking about how most of the Vietnamese think about the concept of ethnicity and nationalism.
According to his former pots, he doesn't support all of the "major" concept of Vietnamese people.


Also I think you have already figured out why there are many Vietnamese are spreading their point of view which most Chinese (except for Chinese racist) feel ridiculously funny through Viet's words.

It's because most of the Vietnamese (Kinh) are "Kinh chauvinist".

As we all know, in China, there is no such thing of "main ethnic". Everyone lives in China is Chinese no matter which ethnic group they belong to. If there is someone who dares to say that only Han are "real" Chinese through media, he or she will be punished by the government for obvious reason. Even Han chauvinist like Sun Yat-seen quickly brought order out of chaos and turned back to the "Republic of five nationalities".

Think about it, what if most of the Germans (Northerners) think that Bavarians are not German, what if most of the white Americans think that African Americans are not "real Americans" . So ridiculous and hilarious, isn't it? Well yet such concept is a general thought in a South-East Asian country -Vietnam, and they want everyone to accept their point of view, isn't it crazy~

 

[Viet]

He is just talking about how most of the Vietnamese think about the concept of ethnicity and nationalism.
According to his former pots, he doesn't support all of the "major" concept of Vietnamese people.


Also I think you have already figured out why there are many Vietnamese are spreading their point of view which most Chinese (except for Chinese racist) feel ridiculously funny through Viet's words.

It's because most of the Vietnamese (Kinh) are "Kinh chauvinist".

As we all know, in China, there is no such thing of "main ethnic". Everyone lives in China is Chinese no matter which ethnic group they belong to. If there is someone who dares to say that only Han are "real" Chinese through media, he or she will be punished by the government for obvious reason. Even Han chauvinist like Sun Yat-seen quickly brought order out of chaos and turned back to the "Republic of five nationalities".

Think about it, what if most of the Germans (Northerners) think that Bavarians are not German, what if most of the white Americans think that African Americans are not "real Americans" . So ridiculous and hilarious, isn't it? Well yet such concept is a general thought in a South-East Asian country -Vietnam, and they want everyone to accept their point of view, isn't it crazy~

we, the Viet people differ to Chinese when it comes to nationalism and ethnics. You have a different concept. Weird. Don´t blame us. We are too different like sun and moon.

but hey...see things in a positive light:

unlike our neighbors in Cambodia and Laos, where the people don´t know much of history, and they don´t care much of, either, we the Viets live with histories. Yes, the Cambodians do not have any records of their glorious past, the Angkor Kingdom. Okay, you may find some writings in the temple steles.

But that ´s all.

 

[Rechoice]

Its none of you business what I do in the US.

You are chinese, but your national flag is USA and location is USA. I would like to confirm that I have chance to do a dialog with whom.

No it isn't.

its not true, chinese forumers used this word when they are talking about Chinese civilization.

Because the original text was written in Hanzi,if you cannot accept that then you are in denial.
I've doubt your Putong Hua is of any value your constant mistakes are noticed by Chinese members.

My mandarin is poor, Its enough to minimum communication only. I said I learnt it for a time bcz I interested on Chinese Han Zi, why does this stranger and complicated characters mean ?

Why would EastSea and Niceguy post this map then?
When did Xi,Dian,Minyue etc recognize a Hung sovereign?
You made the claim now prove it.

My Vietnamese friends could post map here which they want, like our historian discussed about territory of Van lang from long time ago. And now as I said the north of Van Lang reached to Dongding Hu only and not covered 四川 Jiangsu and Zhie Jang.

You still can't answer me why bronze drums were associated with "barbarians".

In the period of Van Lang Kingdom, there was no idea about civilized people and barbarian people. Today, bronze drum is emblems of Vietnam.

Prove that there were Vietnamese texts before Ma Yuan invaded.

Such writting characters of Luoyue people found in Guangxi,

If you can't read Hanzi then you are not qualified to speak about Chinese history simple as that.

Its not true, I can read it in Vietnamese version, as I said above.

I post here old Hanzi text written by Vietnamese, you could fully understand. ?

昔商家至盤庚五遷。周室迨成王三徙。豈三代之數君徇于己私。妄自遷徙。以其圖大宅中。爲億万世子孫之計。上謹天命。下因民志。苟有便輒改。故國祚延長。風俗富阜。而丁黎二家。乃徇己私。忽天命。罔蹈商周之迹。常安厥邑于茲。致世代弗長。算數短促。百姓耗損。万物失宜。朕甚痛之。不得不徙。
况高王故都大羅城。宅天地區域之中。得龍蟠虎踞之勢。正南北東西之位。便江山向背之宜。其地廣而坦平。厥土高而爽塏。民居蔑昏墊之困。万物極繁阜之丰。遍覽越邦。斯爲勝地。誠四方輻輳之要会。爲万世帝王之上都。
朕欲因此地利以定厥居。卿等如何。

Can you translate in to English 100 % correct ?

You haven't answered anything,all you do is mislead people and refuse to provide sources.

I answered you but you don't like understand.

You just proved my claim,I claimed that Zhao Tuo annexed the Vietnamese and the Qin didn't showing that the original territory of Nanyue did not include Jiaozhi.
How am I supposed to know what was going on in the minds of the Han administrators 2,000 years ago?

And Shu Pan is from Shu a Sinicized state,so you were ruled by foreigners.

You lie, Shu Fan is not sinzed. when Han Chinese is still living in north China. there was no concept sinization existed.

He could be Mon, Muong or Trai only. He came from Ba Shu is disputed. Important information is that when he lost country to Zhao Tuo, he ran back to his home land in Nghe Tinh province of Vietnam.

Note that Vietnamese/kinh people became only separated from Mom/Muong/Trai people from 1,300 year ago.

And that's absolute bull,Viet Thuong in Han era texts never mention Van Lang showing that the Dai Viet su ky toan thu is lying again.

Read again my answer in early post. I said Dai Viet su ky don't lie.
Applying your logic here we can say Chinese Shiji is big lie.

Yes more ad hominems does this stoke your ego?
You have provided nothing at all.

what is this ?

Backtracking are we?
You stated in the Shui Jing Zhu there was information that the Baiyue had a Hung King now prove it.

read Shui Jing Zhu first, then you can ask.

Even if my English is that poor,I would still me making more money then Vietnamese.

Work hard for USA is stronger than now.

How is this trolling?
I clearly stated that you can not generalize an entire language family by one branch.
For example Cantonese is clearly always a Sinitic language,however not all Sino Tibetan languages are Cantonese.

Yes, so Han Chinese don't understand what Cantonese and Fujian people speak with their native language, like Vietnamese/Kinh people and Khmer people.

Another bold lie,the researchers said the words were adopted from Austroasiactics not Vietnamese.

But we speak such words now.

Doesn't matter if Vietnamese is Austroasiatic this doesn't mean all Austroasiatic languages are Vietnamese.

OK.

You don't understand what elite means?
Read John Phan's papers and you will learn that Kinh Vietnamese switched from a Southwestern Chinese language to a Muong language.

Sino-Tibetan words are loan words in our language in time of China domination in Vietnam. Basic words in Vietnamese are came from Austroasiatic languges.

You're the one engaging in insulting behavior don't deflect this on me.

I said, I will call you "funny boy" OK ?

You just spelled your own downfall.
You have not quoted a single text from these men,H. Maspero disagrees that the Van Lang existed.
H. Maspero claims that the names of the 15 division of Van Lang originated no later then the late Tang dynasty.
H. Maspero also claims that Hung kings is a scribal error of Lac, and they are fake.
What’s so “Colonial” about Colonial-Era Scholarship? | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog
Quote them then,if you are so arrogant then quote them for the world to see.

Don't troll kid. it make you more funny.
H. Maspero is not a first white man found that, but his work is strongly confirmed that Vietnamese language belong to Austroasiatic language family,

Pls to read his book "Etudes sur la phonetique historique de la langue annamite -lles initales " BEFFO, 1912.

Right,coming from someone who can't even quote Hanzi,conflates Austroasiatic language family as entirely Vietnamese,making wide claims then floundering when he can't prove them and engages in insults.

What can I say to you, Vietnamese belong to Autroasiatic languagese, not inverse, kid.

@Hu Songshan this member has not only insulted me but other Chinese members in other threads.

let he do his duty fairly here, bro.

 

[Grand Historian]

You are chinese, but your national flag is USA and location is USA. I would like to confirm that I have chance to do a dialog with whom.

I'm an ethnic Han Chinese that resides in the US, yet I have dual citizenship from the US and the ROC.

its not true, chinese forumers used this word when they are talking about Chinese civilization.

If you have ever traveled to Sinitic speaking areas you would see that Chang Jiang is much more common then Yangtze.

My mandarin is poor, Its enough to minimum communication only. I said I learnt it for a time bcz I interested on Chinese Han Zi, why does this stranger and complicated characters mean ?

Can you please rephrase you answer.

My Vietnamese friends could post map here which they want, like our historian discussed about territory of Van lang from long time ago. And now as I said the north of Van Lang reached to Dongding Hu only and not covered 四川 Jiangsu and Zhie Jang.

Van Lang never ruled Southern China,I lost count on how many times have I asked for archaeological evidence.(and no Luoyue having Sinitic writing means that it was influenced by Chinese states this doesn't show squat that Van Lang ruled an area)

In the period of Van Lang Kingdom, there was no idea about civilized people and barbarian people. Today, bronze drum is emblems of Vietnam.

You wouldn't even know if Van Lang had an idea of civilization or barbarian because we have no contemporary texts dating to that era.

Such writting characters of Luoyue people found in Guangxi,

How does this prove anything?

This is not equivalent of the bamboo annals or any Chinese history books carving on rocks don't equate anything.

Luoyue was also the ancestors of other ethnicties such as the Zhuang so how can they be distinctly Vietnamese?

Its not true, I can read it in Vietnamese version, as I said above.

I post here old Hanzi text written by Vietnamese, you could fully understand. ?

昔商家至盤庚五遷。周室迨成王三徙。豈三代之數君徇于己私。妄自遷徙。以其圖大宅中。爲億万世子孫之計。上謹天命。下因民志。苟有便輒改。故國祚延長。風俗富阜。而丁黎二家。乃徇己私。忽天命。罔蹈商周之迹。常安厥邑于茲。致世代弗長。算數短促。百姓耗損。万物失宜。朕甚痛之。不得不徙。
况高王故都大羅城。宅天地區域之中。得龍蟠虎踞之勢。正南北東西之位。便江山向背之宜。其地廣而坦平。厥土高而爽塏。民居蔑昏墊之困。万物極繁阜之丰。遍覽越邦。斯爲勝地。誠四方輻輳之要会。爲万世帝王之上都。
朕欲因此地利以定厥居。卿等如何。

Can you translate in to English 100 % correct ?

You can't read Hanzi and you expect to understand East Asian history?

Anyone with a basic High school education in mainland China or Taiwan can grasp the basics of Classical Chinese.

In ancient times under the rule of King Pan Geng(Zi Xun),the Shang dynasty capital moved five times.Under the reign of King Cheng(Ji Song) the Zhou dynasty capital moved three times. The kings did not move the capitals on their own whims but rather to help their citizens. The reason why the kings moved the capitals is because to seek greatness,situate it in the middle of the lands,enable their myriad descendants to prosper,obey Heaven's mandate,the will of the people,and finally to ensure "China" and her customs remained for all eternity. Nowadays the two houses of Li and the Ding have spurned heaven's will,rejecting the ways of Shang and Zhou,their placement of the capital caused the countries demise,causing the agony of the common people and throwing the world into turmoil. I(Li Gongyun) am vexed about moving the capital. Da Luo is the capital city of Gao Wang. (Da Luo) was the center of Heaven and Earth. This area geomancy reminds me of a soaring dragon and a tiger in pursue of its prey. It is in conjunction of South,North,East and West. Thus the rivers and mountains converge. This land is large and the unbroken,soil is high and ripe. The common people enjoy relative protection from floods or darkness. The land is bountiful and reflects growth. Observing the lands of Yue(ie Vietnam) this area is the crossroads of the common people thus it is appropriate for the capital of a grand sovereign. Therefore I wish this land to is advantageous for a capital,what say you?

Of course this is not an 100% accurate translation as I embellished words, however you get the gist of the meaning,by translating this it shows I can can comprehend Classical Chinese something which you lack.

I answered you but you don't like understand.

Provide archaeological evidence or Baiyue texts.

You lie, Shu Fan is not sinzed. when Han Chinese is still living in north China. there was no concept sinization existed.

He could be Mon, Muong or Trai only. He came from Ba Shu is disputed. Important information is that when he lost country to Zhao Tuo, he ran back to his home land in Nghe Tinh province of Vietnam.

Note that Vietnamese/kinh people became only separated from Mom/Muong/Trai people from 1,300 year ago.

Shu was a state right next to Qin how can it not be under Chinese influence,you must realize the elites of periphery states emulated the Zhou rites and culture. Furthermore your own records record that Shu Pan was a prince of Shu therefore you are injecting your own interpretations that he is of non Chinese descent. This is a classic example of cherry picking,this is clearly stated in the Dai Viet su ky toan thu.

安陽王: 姓蜀，諱泮。巴蜀人也。在位五十。年都封溪。（今古螺城是也。）
King Anyang: Surnamed Shu,given name Pan. A man of Ba Shu.. Reigned for 50 years Capital was established at Fengxi(today's Guluo city).

Read again my answer in early post. I said Dai Viet su ky don't lie.
Applying your logic here we can say Chinese Shiji is big lie.

Name the lies in the Shiji, other than the mythological elements it is trustworthy.

Dai Viet su ky toan thu makes a whole of bunch of claims that I already debunked read my opening post.

read Shui Jing Zhu first, then you can ask.

You're the one insisting there is hidden information from it.

The burden of proof lies on you not me,so quote it in Hanzi or don't mention it at all.

Yes, so Han Chinese don't understand what Cantonese and Fujian people speak with their native language, like Vietnamese/Kinh people and Khmer people.

Fail analogy,Khmers are not considered Vietnamese while Cantonese and Fujianese are both considered Han Chinese.

When I had my 台胞證 to go to the mainland I was labeled Han not Baiyue.

But we speak such words now.

You don't speak all Austroasiatic languages,Kinh Vietnamese don't speak Cham or Munda.

Again where did the researchers state that the Austroasiatic words that Old Chinese adopted were exclusively Vietnamese?

Sino-Tibetan words are loan words in our language in time of China domination in Vietnam. Basic words in Vietnamese are came from Austroasiatic languges.

There are plenty of "native" Vietnamese words that derive off Sinitic languages again read John Phan's dissertation.

Don't troll kid. it make you more funny.
H. Maspero is not a first white man found that, but his work is strongly confirmed that Vietnamese language belong to Austroasiatic language family,

Pls to read his book "Etudes sur la phonetique historique de la langue annamite -lles initales " BEFFO, 1912.

I never argued that Vietnamese isn't Austroasiatic what I'm arguing is that the lexicon is heavily influenced by Sinitic languages.

You're the one that never read H. Maspero's works he denies the Hung kings even existed.

What can I say to you, Vietnamese belong to Autroasiatic languagese, not inverse, kid.

Then why are claiming that Chinese adopted Vietnamese words when researchers never said that.

let he do his duty fairly here, bro.

Ah Q is clearly an insult against Chinese members,same reason why Vietnamese don't like being called banana,monkeys,Vietcong etc.

 

[Snomannen]

we, the Viet people differ to Chinese when it comes to nationalism and ethnics. You have a different concept. Weird. Don´t blame us. We are too different like sun and moon.

but hey...see things in a positive light:

unlike our neighbors in Cambodia and Laos, where the people don´t know much of history, and they don´t care much of, either, we the Viets live with histories. Yes, the Cambodians do not have any records of their glorious past, the Angkor Kingdom. Okay, you may find some writings in the temple steles.

But that ´s all.

I think Cambodian has lost mostly everything during the catastrophe of the Red Cambodia.

 

[Viet]

I think Cambodian has lost mostly everything during the catastrophe of the Red Cambodia.

Yes, their cultural heritages were completely destroyed by the Khmer Rouge gangsters.

But anyway, the Cambodians and Laotians show no interests on history. They are followers of the strict concept of Buddhism. Their main premise says, the suffering of the world bases on covetousness and deception and that salvation is only attainable if one understands the world and its processes are insignificant and illusory.

is that something you can learn from our neighbors?

 

[Rechoice]

Van Lang never ruled Southern China,I lost count on how many times have I asked for archaeological evidence.(and no Luoyue having Sinitic writing means that it was influenced by Chinese states this doesn't show squat that Van Lang ruled an area)

I said Van Lang is existed in our history. You said: mo. We have a different opinion.
China history book stated that in southern of China there were many kind of Yue people, briefly: "bai Yue" in Chinese. So Luo Yue belong to Bai Yue too.

Luo Yue character is not sinitic character, if it should be, Han Zi is developed from Luo Yue characters. Luo Yue characters found, it dated from 4,000 year.

[quote How does this prove anything?
This is not equivalent of the bamboo annals or any Chinese history books carving on rocks don't equate anything.
Luoyue was also the ancestors of other ethnicties such as the Zhuang so how can they be distinctly Vietnamese?

[/QUOTE]

As I said above LuoYue characters dated back from 4,000 year ago, when Han Zi is not existed. Shang dynasty of China was in Middle Terrain, about 1,8000 year ago,

Zhuang people in Guangxi claimed that they are descendant of LuoYue people. Its not true.

If you read a book 水经注 Thuỷ Kinh chú, you could know that Luo Yue people were living mainly in area of many rivers in sothern China, from Zhou Jiang to Tonkin delta, Zhuang oeople were living in high mountain area in Guangxi or Guìzhōu 贵州.

[quoteYou can't read Hanzi and you expect to understand East Asian history?
Anyone with a basic High school education in mainland China or Taiwan can grasp the basics of Classical Chinese.
In ancient times under the rule of King Pan Geng(Zi Xun),the Shang dynasty capital moved five times.Under the reign of King Cheng(Ji Song) the Zhou dynasty capital moved three times. The kings did not move the capitals on their own whims but rather to help their citizens. The reason why the kings moved the capitals is because to seek greatness,situate it in the middle of the lands,enable their myriad descendants to prosper,obey Heaven's mandate,the will of the people,and finally to ensure "China" and her customs remained for all eternity. Nowadays the two houses of Li and the Ding have spurned heaven's will,rejecting the ways of Shang and Zhou,their placement of the capital caused the countries demise,causing the agony of the common people and throwing the world into turmoil. I(Li Gongyun) am vexed about moving the capital. Da Luo is the capital city of Gao Wang. (Da Luo) was the center of Heaven and Earth. This area geomancy reminds me of a soaring dragon and a tiger in pursue of its prey. It is in conjunction of South,North,East and West. Thus the rivers and mountains converge. This land is large and the unbroken,soil is high and ripe. The common people enjoy relative protection from floods or darkness. The land is bountiful and reflects growth. Observing the lands of Yue(ie Vietnam) this area is the crossroads of the common people thus it is appropriate for the capital of a grand sovereign. Therefore I wish this land to is advantageous for a capital,what say you?
Of course this is not an 100% accurate translation as I embellished words, however you get the gist of the meaning,by translating this it shows I can can comprehend Classical Chinese something which you lack.

[/QUOTE]

Congrat, It is not 100 %, but good translation.

I read chinese history book, which s translated in to Vietnamese.

[quote Provide archaeological evidence or Baiyue texts.

[/QUOTE]

don't ask again, Luo Yue text is Bai Yue text.

[quote Shu was a state right next to Qin how can it not be under Chinese influence,you must realize the elites of periphery states emulated the Zhou rites and culture. Furthermore your own records record that Shu Pan was a prince of Shu therefore you are injecting your own interpretations that he is of non Chinese descent. This is a classic example of cherry picking,this is clearly stated in the Dai Viet su ky toan thu.

安陽王: 姓蜀，諱泮。巴蜀人也。在位五十。年都封溪。（今古螺城是也。）
King Anyang: Surnamed Shu,given name Pan. A man of Ba Shu.. Reigned for 50 years Capital was established at Fengxi(today's Guluo city).

[/QUOTE]

Laos is next to Vietnam today, like Shu and Qin in the past. Most of Laotien officials and part of Laotien people could speak Vietnamese but they belong to laotien in ethnicity, Tai/Katay people culturally.

Guluo or Co Loa in Vietnamese is part of Hanoi City now. Shu Fan is native from Ba Shu or Mon/Muong.Trai is debated matter here in Vietnam.

My opinion is that Shu Fan is from Mon/Muong or Trai. The question is why he move the capital of Hungking from Feng Zhou in northern of Red river to Co Loa near Hanoi ? and when he lost the country Ou Yue to Zhao Tuo, Why he didn't ran back to northern area ?

he ran back to middle area of Vietnam, I think there is his hometown.

You're the one insisting there is hidden information from it.
The burden of proof lies on you not me,so quote it in Hanzi or don't mention it at all.

When you read 水经注 Thuỷ Kinh chú, you dont ask me about that.

Fail analogy,Khmers are not considered Vietnamese while Cantonese and Fujianese are both considered Han Chinese.
When I had my 台胞證 to go to the mainland I was labeled Han not Baiyue.

There is different concept or definition to the "ethnicity" in China and Vietnam.

You don't speak all Austroasiatic languages,Kinh Vietnamese don't speak Cham or Munda.
Again where did the researchers state that the Austroasiatic words that Old Chinese adopted were exclusively Vietnamese?

Same as Han Chinese in north China don't speak Cantonese, Hakka. Cháozhōu, Shanghai (Wu Yue) language...even though all languages belong to Sino-Tibatan languages.

There are plenty of "native" Vietnamese words that derive off Sinitic languages again read John Phan's dissertation.

I don't shared opinion with John Phan or others about that,

such "native" word you said in fact there is loan word from middle time from Sino-Tibetan languages (when Vietnamese were in Southern China). So why in the past Vietnamese language was classificated in to Sin-Tibetan language.

I never argued that Vietnamese isn't Austroasiatic what I'm arguing is that the lexicon is heavily influenced by Sinitic languages.
You're the one that never read H. Maspero's works he denies the Hung kings even existed.

As I said above, we copied such words from long time in the past, from time of Van Lang and HungKing emperor, when our ancestors were in China, but you don't agreed.

 

[Grand Historian]

I said Van Lang is existed in our history. You said: mo. We have a different opinion.
China history book stated that in southern of China there were many kind of Yue people, briefly: "bai Yue" in Chinese. So Luo Yue belong to Bai Yue too.

Luo Yue character is not sinitic character, if it should be, Han Zi is developed from Luo Yue characters. Luo Yue characters found, it dated from 4,000 year.

It doesn't matter what your history books,Koreans claim that Gojoseon was older then Shang dynasty yet we have no archaeological proof whatsoever ie similar to Van Lang.

Then why do you claim all all Baiyue as Vietnamese?

Luoyue characters resemble later day Tai characters,you are just stealing history as usual.

As I said above LuoYue characters dated back from 4,000 year ago, when Han Zi is not existed. Shang dynasty of China was in Middle Terrain, about 1,8000 year ago,

Zhuang people in Guangxi claimed that they are descendant of LuoYue people. Its not true.

If you read a book 水经注 Thuỷ Kinh chú, you could know that Luo Yue people were living mainly in area of many rivers in sothern China, from Zhou Jiang to Tonkin delta, Zhuang oeople were living in high mountain area in Guangxi or Guìzhōu 贵州.

Shang was not influenced by Luoyue name one reputable Sinoligists that agrees with you bold claims.

Quote the Shui Jing Zhu in Hanzi then I'm not going to do your research for you.

Congrat, It is not 100 %, but good translation.

I read chinese history book, which s translated in to Vietnamese.

Thanks for the flattery however it still shows you lack understanding in Chinese texts.

don't ask again, Luo Yue text is Bai Yue text.

No it isn't,prove that all Baiyue had the same script as the Luoyue.

Laos is next to Vietnam today, like Shu and Qin in the past. Most of Laotien officials and part of Laotien people could speak Vietnamese but they belong to laotien in ethnicity, Tai/Katay people culturally.

Guluo or Co Loa in Vietnamese is part of Hanoi City now. Shu Fan is native from Ba Shu or Mon/Muong.Trai is debated matter here in Vietnam.

My opinion is that Shu Fan is from Mon/Muong or Trai. The question is why he move the capital of Hungking from Feng Zhou in northern of Red river to Co Loa near Hanoi ? and when he lost the country Ou Yue to Zhao Tuo, Why he didn't ran back to northern area ?

he ran back to middle area of Vietnam, I think there is his hometown.

Shu Fan was explicitly stated to be from Shu,I don't know how else you can misinterpret it

How could Shu Fan run back to Shu if it was already conquered by Qin?

Quit cherry picking sources when it doesn't suit your ideals.

When you read 水经注 Thuỷ Kinh chú, you dont ask me about that.

You're really are lazy aren't you?

You can't even quote the book that you keep on referencing.

《交州外域記》曰：越王令二使者典主交趾、九真二郡民，後漢遣伏波將軍路博德討越王，路將軍到合浦，越王令二使者，齎牛百頭，酒千鍾，及二郡民戶口簿，詣路將軍，乃拜二使者爲交趾、九真太守，諸雒將主民如故。交趾郡及州本治于此也。州名爲交州。

The treaties of Outer Jiaozhou says: The King of Yue ie King of Nanyue commanded messengers to the two commanderies of Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen. Later Lu Bode(title general that subdues the waves) questioned the King of Yue. Lu Bode's soldiers entered Hepu thus the King of Yue sent messengers,100 heads of cattle,thousands of containers filled with wine,and detailed the population of the two comanderies ie Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen.Messengers were sent to the Grand Administrator of Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen and to the Luo generals and common citizens. The commandery of Jiaozhi was ruled as before ie with Luo generals in charge. Jiaozhi was renamed Jiaozhou.

《交州外域記》曰：交趾昔未有郡縣之時，土地有雒田，其田從潮水上下，民墾食其田，因名爲雒民，設雒王、雒侯，主諸郡縣。縣多爲雒將，雒將銅印青綬。後蜀王子將兵三萬來討雒王、雒侯，服諸雒將，蜀王子因稱爲安陽王。

The treaties of Outer Jiaozhou says: Prior to the establishment of administrative divisions in Jiaozhi,the land was Luo fields. Under the receding and rising waters the common people that tilled the land were called Luo people. Luo kings and marquises ruled over these areas. These counties had Luo generals,the Luo generals received imperial bronze seals and green ribbons. Later the king of Shu ie Shu Pan with 30,000 soldiers defeated the Luo king,marquise and the generals. The King of Shu was then known as King Anyang.

There's more but I'm going to take a break and finish this up later.

There is different concept or definition to the "ethnicity" in China and Vietnam.

Since you insinuate that Southern Han Chinese are not true Han Chinese,are Central and Southern Kinh Vietnamese not true Kinh Vietnamese because they have Cham and Khmer blood?

Same as Han Chinese in north China don't speak Cantonese, Hakka. Cháozhōu, Shanghai (Wu Yue) language...even though all languages belong to Sino-Tibatan languages.

No one claimed that Cantonese represents all Sinitic language unlike you who claimed that Baiyue all spoke Vietnamese.

I don't shared opinion with John Phan or others about that,

such "native" word you said in fact there is loan word from middle time from Sino-Tibetan languages (when Vietnamese were in Southern China). So why in the past Vietnamese language was classificated in to Sin-Tibetan language.

Read his dissertation it clearly shows many "native" Vietnamese words have a Sinitic origin.

There was no Vietnamese in Southern China get over it.

As I said above, we copied such words from long time in the past, from time of Van Lang and HungKing emperor, when our ancestors were in China, but you don't agreed.

You have provided abouslutely nothing to show me that Vietnamese lived in Southern China other than Luoyue writing which doesn't prove anything other than that Luoyue people were literate.

 

[ViXuyen]

Keith, stop writing about Viet history. I know you receive royalty from the Chinese.

 

[Grand Historian]

Keith, stop writing about Viet history. I know you receive royalty from the Chinese.

Keep on deluding yourself that Vietnamese invented gunpowder

 

[Rechoice]

It doesn't matter what your history books,Koreans claim that Gojoseon was older then Shang dynasty yet we have no archaeological proof whatsoever ie similar to Van Lang.

Then why do you claim all all Baiyue as Vietnamese?

Luoyue characters resemble later day Tai characters,you are just stealing history as usual.


Shang was not influenced by Luoyue name one reputable Sinoligists that agrees with you bold claims.

Quote the Shui Jing Zhu in Hanzi then I'm not going to do your research for you.


Thanks for the flattery however it still shows you lack understanding in Chinese texts.


No it isn't,prove that all Baiyue had the same script as the Luoyue.


Shu Fan was explicitly stated to be from Shu,I don't know how else you can misinterpret it

How could Shu Fan run back to Shu if it was already conquered by Qin?

Quit cherry picking sources when it doesn't suit your ideals.


You're really are lazy aren't you?

You can't even quote the book that you keep on referencing.

《交州外域記》曰：越王令二使者典主交趾、九真二郡民，後漢遣伏波將軍路博德討越王，路將軍到合浦，越王令二使者，齎牛百頭，酒千鍾，及二郡民戶口簿，詣路將軍，乃拜二使者爲交趾、九真太守，諸雒將主民如故。交趾郡及州本治于此也。州名爲交州。

The treaties of Outer Jiaozhou says: The King of Yue ie King of Nanyue commanded messengers to the two commanderies of Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen. Later Lu Bode(title general that subdues the waves) questioned the King of Yue. Lu Bode's soldiers entered Hepu thus the King of Yue sent messengers,100 heads of cattle,thousands of containers filled with wine,and detailed the population of the two comanderies ie Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen.Messengers were sent to the Grand Administrator of Jiaozhi and Jiuzhen and to the Luo generals and common citizens. The commandery of Jiaozhi was ruled as before ie with Luo generals in charge. Jiaozhi was renamed Jiaozhou.

《交州外域記》曰：交趾昔未有郡縣之時，土地有雒田，其田從潮水上下，民墾食其田，因名爲雒民，設雒王、雒侯，主諸郡縣。縣多爲雒將，雒將銅印青綬。後蜀王子將兵三萬來討雒王、雒侯，服諸雒將，蜀王子因稱爲安陽王。

The treaties of Outer Jiaozhou says: Prior to the establishment of administrative divisions in Jiaozhi,the land was Luo fields. Under the receding and rising waters the common people that tilled the land were called Luo people. Luo kings and marquises ruled over these areas. These counties had Luo generals,the Luo generals received imperial bronze seals and green ribbons. Later the king of Shu ie Shu Pan with 30,000 soldiers defeated the Luo king,marquise and the generals. The King of Shu was then known as King Anyang.

There's more but I'm going to take a break and finish this up later.

Since you insinuate that Southern Han Chinese are not true Han Chinese,are Central and Southern Kinh Vietnamese not true Kinh Vietnamese because they have Cham and Khmer blood?


No one claimed that Cantonese represents all Sinitic language unlike you who claimed that Baiyue all spoke Vietnamese.


Read his dissertation it clearly shows many "native" Vietnamese words have a Sinitic origin.

There was no Vietnamese in Southern China get over it.


You have provided abouslutely nothing to show me that Vietnamese lived in Southern China other than Luoyue writing which doesn't prove anything other than that Luoyue people were literate.

when history of Gojoseon Korean and Van Lang of Viets doesn't matter for you, why did you created this thread ?

when you are southern Chinese, you claimed that you are Han Chinese, but in fact your ancestor was Min Yue, not han chinese from north China. You dont have Jia Fa to post here to confirm your root from Zhong Yuan.

Its big fabrication made by yourselves.

I never said that Bai Yue is Vietnamese/Kinh people. Viet belong to Bai Yue, not inverse, it mean that Viets is part of Bai yue. Vietnamese ancestors belong to Bai Yue, not all Bai Yue belong to Viets.

I said also that in time of Hung King Emperor in our history, in North East of Van Lang there was Wu Yue Guo the country of Gou Jian. Wu Yue was not belong to Van lang.

Van Lang it was country with an alliance of tribes, rather than a conventional state. It included tribes spoke different language like Tai/Katay and Austro-Asiatic languages, tribes spoke Mon/Khmer languages were directly related more to Viets/Kinh people than rest of Bai Yue tribes..

Luo Yue writing characters found in Guangxi dated back 4,000 year. It was more ancient, or older than Han Zi which created in Shang dynasty in Middle Terrain of China, which was only from 1,800 year ago. Luo yue was part of Bai Yue, so Luo Yue characters is belong to Bai Yue people too.

Zhuang people was Ou yue, was not Luo Yue people. Van Lang was going to collapse when Qin invaders expanded territory to south. Later on, Shu Fan defeated Hung King and ruled mainly people of Ou Yue and Luo Yue.

I'm busy now, I will turn back.