Vietnam strategic plans for building defence capability: Facts and Analysis

[Carlosa]

That's cute calling people bias, but let your own bias to form your own opinion on the Thais. "I've been to Japan therefore their army sucked. Despite I never once visit any Japanese base."

Also calling the Thai army better equipped than the Viet is about as objective as it get. Go to any other military sites and they will give you the same answer. Because unlike Vietnam it actually has something it never have "Transparency." Most of Vietnam's equipment are of cold war remnants with some of it dating back to WW2 except for those you just mentioned this is a fact. Thai Oplot 4 example is the most advanced MBT in Mainland ASEAN & the Thai army hated them.

I cannot vouch for the quality of Thai soldiers but considering that Thailand has sent soldiers to numerous military exercises especially with the US I expect them to learn something.

Biased again!!! Transparency is true and its great, but it does not win wars. Now, how is that transparency relate to the fact that the Thai military is massively corrupt? Or maybe it doesn't apply there?

Sure, living in Thailand for a number of years does not give me any insight into the Thai military, interesting.

Oplot 4, that shows me how up to date you are about Thailand; You know why they hate them? those tanks have a lot of issues because of very bad workmanship, they are crap, the Thais are complaining a lot about them because they have good reasons. Why do you think they are negotiating with Russia for T-90s? Never mind that they only have a handful (10), so they are irrelevant anyway.

Funny talking about old equipment. Thailand has 10 Oplot 4, everything else is super old M-60, M-48 and even older, but you guys only focused on the old Viet tanks and ignore the massively old Thai tanks and even place Thailand as an example of advance army equipment. I have to say, this is a bit embarrassing for you guys, you should know better than that. Even Burma has much better tanks than Thailand.

Thailand doesn't even have 1 single anti aircraft missile, they only use anti aircraft artillery, wow, I'm speechless about this supposed modern military. Way to go guys.

The Thai army is better equipped than the Viet, except what I mentioned, but never mind that what I mentioned is extremely important, but you make it look like if its just peanuts, but you are not biased, yeah, I can see that.

How old are the AMX-13 tanks of Indonesia? Oh no, lets not talk about that, only Vietnam is supposed to have old tanks.

You guys keep repeating the same mantra: "The Viet military has outdated equipment, some of which dates back to ww2", but at the same time totally ignore the massive purchases of modern equipment during the last decade, much of which has no equivalent in ASEAN with the possible exception of Singapore and that just for some items. But, no, that's not a biased opinion. I guess nobody in ASEAN, including Indonesia, has old equipment, those countries are all very rich, that's why they don't have any old equipment. Objective you said? Yeah, yeah...... I can see that.

Feel free to list all that superior equipment of the Thai military, I'm very curious about that, I'm always ready to learn something new.

Ooops, I forgot, they have an aircraft carrier, Oh my God, isn't that great and unique in ASEAN?
Ooops again, that beautiful carrier (made at my home country by the way) does not have aircraft. They keep it parked at port and they use it as an attraction for people to visit, like a museum. I actually went to visit it once.

So other than the carrier and maybe a couple of extra ships, what else do they have that is superior and of some significance?

 

[MKC]

Vietnam need to upgrading their Army, reducing the number of standing army personnel and saving money for more equipment, training and modernizing their doctrine. Most of Vietnamese army personnel and units still using old equipment which can be traced as far as WW II. The other area need to be upgraded is their ISR capability, this ones is very lacking and till very recently Vietnam still focusing to procuring more and more fire power without regarding the capability to find more valuable information and exact points they intended to bring those firepower they must muster to.

Sorry, to say, Vietnamese ground units situation is very same like the Syrian Arab Army before the Revolution/Arab Spring. Only focusing to using and collecting outdated equipment in large number combined with old tactics and mindset from the cold war era. If they must facing other armies with modern equipment (even if they just infantry support tools like modern ATGM, RPGs and anti-material sniper rifle) and more flexibility in engagement and tactics, Vietnam army will suffer a great deal.

Upgrading army is good thing but Vietnam should surely reduce number of personnel, I can't full-scale war in near future but problem in SCS will remain & may exchange firing of missiles, so VPN needs modernisation & amphibious warfare capability, VPN needs ships with strong air defence for anti-ship or land attack purpose Molniya class with 16 SSM can do job but VPN needs strong air defence ships.
I can't see any country invading Vietnam from west, problem is only from north which is a small boundary that doesn't require big number but army should have modern equipment, air-defence & gunships.

You mean Boing p8 or IL 38?
Which planes Vietnam is looking for?
Why not commission additional squadrons of su 30/35? That would be cost effective since you already have them

US doesn't export military equipment to Vietnam but considering to remove ban, one P8 cost is 260 million dollar, upgraded second-hand P-3C can do job in less than 20 million dollar. VPN can get ATR-72MP/ATR-42MP, the EADS C-295MPA/C-235MPA, the Dassault's Falcon 900MPA and the Embraer P-99A.
Kawasaki P-1 is better as costs half of P8.

P8 or P3C or SC130J
I think something like F16 or F-2 ... would be suitable to the need of light interceptors.
But likely, maybe improved Mig-29 variant could be the candidate... because Vietnam is more familiar to Russian aircrafts.

F16 are good but don't rely on US too much. They know how to arm twist in case of need.
Look at Pakistan

Vietnam doesn't buy any equipment from US.
US-Pakistan relations are affected by terrorism but Vietnam don't have that problem, surely can rely on US.

 

[Carlosa]

Upgrading army is good thing but Vietnam should surely reduce number of personnel, I can't full-scale war in near future but problem in SCS will remain & may exchange firing of missiles, so VPN needs modernisation & amphibious warfare capability, VPN needs ships with strong air defence for anti-ship or land attack purpose Molniya class with 16 SSM can do job but VPN needs strong air defence ships.
I can't see any country invading Vietnam from west, problem is only from north which is a small boundary that doesn't require big number but army should have modern equipment, air-defence & gunships.

I agree, they should reduce the size of the army.

For some reason they like the P-3 a lot, I don't know why. I also think that the C-295 MPA / ASW should be better and is new, but........

 

[BoQ77]

Nah i ve talk with some Vietnamese envoys here and there in several occasion in Jakarta, singapore even moscwa because my jobs, my comments is based on their own conclussion. It will be no surprise if Vietnam trying to adopt voluntary service to get more pro soldier instead Soviet like draftee type

Sorry to make you misunderstand.
When I said "We don't pay volunteers to join army" means I refered to recruitment of USA, we are in contrary, volunteers are women only, men are forced to be follow the military service if requested ( only some % asked for military service every year ), to make sure our boys trained the basic skills and disciplines.
I will try to describe it:
- When our boys come to an age of 15, they were requested to register at local military recruitment department. Later if make a move, Boys have to submit this registration to their universities or factories, companies where he joined., and the local recruitment would monitor them in their list. Mentioned that everyone ( including girls ) in highschool and university must be trained for short course of military skill including, shooting skill and reading the map for navigating skill.
- Every year, the local dept. would request some health exam to have an overall view about their potential soldiers.
And some of the candidates would be called to join the Army or Navy... That's not voluntary, although they promotes the boys to join.
That lasts to the age 27, after that you're only for military reserved force, that's me who never in military service, but now under control of reserved force. There're also officers with numbers means they are professional officers.
Students could be collected for specialized jobs in military.
And there're university, colleges ( controlled by MOD ) that directly collect boys and girls to train to military professional officers. The students are all volunteers to apply for.
--------------
About the WW-2 weapon and tactic issues, it's not true.
US and China met each other after WW2 in Korea war, when they clearly use WW2 weapon and tactic ( like soldiers wave ... )
After that they met VPA in Vietnam War 1964-1975 and 1979 and some years after.
They never claim as someone said above.
1. Even AK-47 designed after WW2, and at this moment Vietnam use more modern rifles for regular army.
2. If you know only local militia use M-16, CAR-15 and M1 or SKS carbines.

The USA at early phase of Vietnam War is inferior to VPA on personal firearms
VPA managed to defeat some tactics of USA during 1965-1972, like helicopters mobility.
And VPA show superior against PLA during Sino Viet conflict 1979, where PLA still adopt the WW2 tactic and use mouthful messages to command instead of adopt modern communication equipments as VPA did. And surprisingly with all of similar weapons, VPA dominated the battle by tactic, not by overwhelming personnel. That means there're significant improvement in VPA tactics, even China always think they are teachers of VPA and come to teach a lesson.

In conclusion, at the late of 1970s VPA weapons and tactic as good as the harden experience after clashes with USA and China, not WW-2. Now even better.

You are true about artillery radars, PLA at the time, could buy some modern ones from Western and hit exact targets in our land. Their artillery considered to be more powerful thanks Western equipments that we don't have.

@madokafc : did you find more on ARVN? They organized exactly as you described based on US model.
They tried to explain why ARVN Army collapse, especially without US support, as follow:
- their structure is copy of USA, provided less combatants than supporters
- their militias can't independently fight for long without regular troops. and too weak compare to VPA
- their army, similar to USA depends too much on air force, without air force and aerial artillery and supply, US troops can't hold for long.
- They don't have endurance ability of VPA troops. In record, there're many cases of an isolated single or a few of VPA troops can fight for few days against a much bigger unit of US or China. VPA soldier was taught to able to fight without any support.
That's why VPA officers sometimes was invited to teach in Angola, Syria for improving soldiers skill ... long before

 

[BoQ77]

That's cute calling people bias, but let your own bias to form your own opinion on the Thais. "I've been to Japan therefore their army sucked. Despite I never once visited any Japanese base."

Also calling the Thai army better equipped than the Viet is about as objective as it get. Go to any other military sites and they will give you the same answer. Because unlike Vietnam it actually has something it never have "Transparency." Most of Vietnam's equipment are of cold war remnants with some of it dating back to WW2 except for those you just mentioned this is a fact. Also Thai don't need to maintain many weapons around because of their foreign policy. Thai Oplot 4 example is the most advanced MBT in Mainland ASEAN & the Thai army hated them.

I cannot vouch for the quality of Thai soldiers but considering that Thailand has sent soldiers to numerous military exercises especially with the US I expect them to learn something.

I wish you could point out what difference between:
- A theory never been proved.
- And lesson learn from clashes: VPA vs USA in Year 1, one win one lose; back to home, study to improve, back to Year 2, one win one lose, then Year 3 ... finally, they have 9 years of continuous touch to each other tactic and weapon.
-----------
Although the superior of US air force is clear, is a game changer, for example, in Khe Sanh - Lang Vei, the fact that without air force bombing power, US Marines could come to the direction French soldiers in Dien Bien Phu did go. Surrender.
So the initial theory that USA is better than VPA in performance is not true.
Cause you based on that, you are thinking "copy USA and your army would be better". Terribly wrong.
200 Chinese tanks was destroyed in 1 month in 1979 mostly by RPG-7. Are you going to call RPG-7 and local militias are inferior to MBT ?

 

[Carlosa]

Sorry to make you misunderstand.
When I said "We don't pay volunteers to join army" means I refered to recruitment of USA, we are in contrary, volunteers are women only, men are forced to be follow the military service if requested ( only some % asked for military service every year ), to make sure our boys trained the basic skills and disciplines.
I will try to describe it:
- When our boys come to an age of 15, they were requested to register at local military recruitment department. Later if make a move, Boys have to submit this registration to their universities or factories, companies where he joined., and the local recruitment would monitor them in their list. Mentioned that everyone ( including girls ) in highschool and university must be trained for short course of military skill including, shooting skill and reading the map for navigating skill.
- Every year, the local dept. would request some health exam to have an overall view about their potential soldiers.
And some of the candidates would be called to join the Army or Navy... That's not voluntary, although they promotes the boys to join.
That lasts to the age 27, after that you're only for military reserved force, that's me who never in military service, but now under control of reserved force. There're also officers with numbers means they are professional officers.
Students could be collected for specialized jobs in military.
And there're university, colleges ( controlled by MOD ) that directly collect boys and girls to train to military professional officers. The students are all volunteers to apply for.
--------------
About the WW-2 weapon and tactic issues, it's not true.
US and China met each other after WW2 in Korea war, when they clearly use WW2 weapon and tactic ( like soldiers wave ... )
After that they met VPA in Vietnam War 1964-1975 and 1979 and some years after.
They never claim as someone said above.
1. Even AK-47 designed after WW2, and at this moment Vietnam use more modern rifles for regular army.
2. If you know only local militia use M-16, CAR-15 and M1 or SKS carbines.

The USA at early phase of Vietnam War is inferior to VPA on personal firearms
VPA managed to defeat some tactics of USA during 1965-1972, like helicopters mobility.
And VPA show superior against PLA during Sino Viet conflict 1979, where PLA still adopt the WW2 tactic and use mouthful messages to command instead of adopt modern communication equipments as VPA did. And surprisingly with all of similar weapons, VPA dominated the battle by tactic, not by overwhelming personnel. That means there're significant improvement in VPA tactics, even China always think they are teachers of VPA and come to teach a lesson.

In conclusion, at the late of 1970s VPA weapons and tactic as good as the harden experience after clashes with USA and China, not WW-2. Now even better.

You are true about artillery radars, PLA at the time, could buy some modern ones from Western and hit exact targets in our land. Their artillery considered to be more powerful thanks Western equipments that we don't have.

@madokafc : did you find more on ROV Army? They organized exactly as you described based on US model.
They tried to explain why ROV Army collapse, especially without US support, as follow:
- their structure is copy of USA, provided less combatants than supporters
- their militias can't independently fight for long without regular troops. and too weak compare to VPA
- their army, similar to USA depends too much on air force, without air force and aerial artillery and supply, US troops can't hold for long.
- They don't have endurance ability of VPA troops. In record, there're many cases of an isolated single or a few of VPA troops can fight for few days against a much bigger unit of US or China. VPA soldier was taught to able to fight without any support.
That's why VPA officers sometimes was invited to teach in Angola, Syria for improving soldiers skill ... long before

She has a point on certain areas and nobody will dispute much about that.
The problem is, her position is black and white and she generalizes one part into everything totally ignoring the massive weapon purchases for the last 10-15 years and that's not correct.

No matter how much you show her, you are going to see the same statements. They only want to see what they want to see and refuse to see what they don't want to see.

The other guy was really comical putting Thailand as a example of a well equipped army. I'm waiting for him to refute what I said.

 

[BoQ77]

She has a point on certain areas and nobody will dispute much about that.
The problem is, her position is black and white and she generalizes one part into everything totally ignoring the massive weapon purchases for the last 10-15 years and that's not correct.

No matter how much you show her, you are going to see the same statements. They only want to see what they want to see and refuse to see what they don't want to see.

The other guy was really comical putting Thailand as a example of a well equipped army. I'm waiting for him to refute what I said.

Whenever I see Indo and Thai troops, I remember South Vietnam troops.
I must tell you VPA shouldn't follow US style, or they would get killed in few days.

South Korean troops are much better than US troops.

US troops could still be alive with their tactic, but learn from them while having less assets as US own, isn't quite good as expected.
Why US troops must learn to survive in jungle, ie. sip blood of Cobra ? because they weren't taught that in their training camp. VPA troops were taught hundreds way to survive in jungle.

A Mujahideen with an AK-47 could survive for weeks, he has unparallel skill that US troops dont have.

 

[Carlosa]

Whenever I see Indo and Thai troops, I remember South Vietnam troops.
I must tell you VPA shouldn't follow US style, or they would get killed in few days.

South Korean troops are much better than US troops.

US troops could still be alive with their tactic, but learn from them while less assets as US own, isn't quite good as expected.
Why US troops must learn to survive in jungle, ie. sip blood of Cobra ? because they weren't taught that in their training camp. VPA troops were taught hundreds way to survive in jungle.

A Mujahideen with an AK-47 could survive for weeks, he has unparallel skill that US troops dont have.

I agree. The Viet military have a few things to learn about others and others have a few things to learn from them. Nothing is black and white. There are strengths and weaknesses in all militaries and they all learn and adapt all the time. The VPA is actually progressing a lot and becoming much more modern and that's undeniable. I'm tired of that song that the Viets have a lot of outdated equipment, who doesn't? And who has the money to be up to date on everything all the time? Learning and adapting never stops.

 

[BoQ77]

I agree. The Viet military have a few things to learn about others and others have a few things to learn from them. Nothing is black and white. There are strengths and weaknesses in all militaries and they all learn and adapt all the time. The VPA is actually progressing a lot and becoming much more modern and that's undeniable. I'm tired of that song that the Viets have a lot of outdated equipment, who doesn't? And who has the money to be up to date on everything all the time? Learning and adapting never stops.

Good weapon can't make you a good soldier

ARVN

Thai

 

[Carlosa]

I must tell you ARVN was better than Thai counterpart. Because they're soldiers of a really long war. Naive guys can't long live without lesson learn

I would compare ARVN to Thai troops ; and ARVN to VPA

ARVN

Thai

What is ARVN? South Vietnam?

 

[Carlosa]

Who was defeated by VPA in Vietnam War ? They're ARVN

I didn't know them by that name.

Oh damn, I just noticed the text in that picture. I can see that I'm sleepy this morning, my head doesn't work very well.

I must tell you ARVN was better than Thai counterpart. Because they're soldiers of a really long war. Naive guys can't long live without lesson learn

I would compare ARVN to Thai troops ; and ARVN to VPA

Good weapon can't make you a good soldier

ARVN

Thai

Forget about the Thai army, even tiny Laos pushed them back with heavy casualties when they tried to invade them.

Like I said before, other than some elite units, the Thai army is a joke, they only fight when they have massive military superiority (like with Cambodia). They are actually quite fearful of Burma and Vietnam. Their equipment is mostly old and they buy new equipment in very small numbers. APCs is the only thing where they are relatively ok.

They buy a few big ticket items mainly to show off and say "yes, we also have it", like in the case of the carrier or now that they are thinking about buying 2 subs. They are USELESS as a fighting force.

 

[BoQ77]

btw, US and ARVN troops listen to how the opposers shoot to measure the experience they may have.
They don't look at the gun and say "it's really outdated" but counting how many bullets shot per trigger.
if 2 or 3 from an AK-47, they are opposing an experienced soldier, more bullets per trigger the less experience.
The weapon isn't important than the soldier who would use it.

@Carlosa : could you just make a conclusion for modern weapon or better quality soldier in few lines, and we cleanup our post for a cleaner thread ?

To be fair the one that makes the IDF comparison was BoQ. Madoka only said that Vietnam are still following cold war Era thinking which is true.

Even Thailand are better equipped than the Vietnamese.

It's ok for us to have negative but constructive comments. I don't know well about IDF to ignite any comparison, Thanks to the lady, I could read some interesting comparisons between VPA and IDF or Israel and US.
I just remind ARVN ( South Vietnam ) was ever trained to US model, and it's a mistake.

Thai soldiers are better equipped than VPA, could be a fact. But that fact doesn't tell Thai soldiers fight better than Viet.

Below is comment from Hamburger Hill battle
The U.S. and ARVN units participating in Apache Snow knew, based on existing intelligence information and previous experience in the A Shau, that the operation was likely to encounter serious resistance from PAVN. Beyond that, however, they had little intelligence as to the actual strength and dispositions of PAVN units. Masters of camouflage, the North Vietnamese completely concealed their bases from aerial surveillance. When PAVN forces moved, they did so at night along trails under triple-canopy jungle. They effected their command and control mainly by runner and wire, leaving no electronic signature to monitor or trace. U.S. battalion commanders had to generate their own tactical intelligence by combat patrols, capturing equipment, installations, documents, and occasionally prisoners of war to provide the raw data from which to draw their assessment of the North Vietnamese order of battle and dispositions. It was this time-consuming and hit-or-miss task force which characterized the main efforts of Colonel Honeycutt's 3/187th Infantry during the first four days of the operation.

 

[Carlosa]

btw, US and ARVN troops listen to how the opposers shoot to measure the experience they may have.
They don't look at the gun and say "it's really outdated" but counting how many bullets shot per trigger.
if 2 or 3 from an AK-47, they are opposing an experienced soldier, more bullets per trigger the less experience.
The weapon isn't important than the soldier who would use it.

@Carlosa : could you just make a conclusion for modern weapon or better quality soldier in few lines, and we cleanup our post for a cleaner thread ?

Well, I think history, old and recent, show it is the human factor that makes the difference. Skill, determination, motivation and perseverance make the difference. Maybe in the future, wars will be fought with robots and then everything changes, but we are not there yet.

North Vietnam / Vietcong showed that, twice. The kurds keep showing that right now. ISIS fighters also show that. Look at the skills of the small Russian force in Syria and the difference that it made.

On the other hand, just think about the Iraqi army and how they flee right after the shooting starts.
Look at the Saudi arab coalition in Yemen with all their superior numbers and super high tech weapons, they are getting beat up by a rag tag army that doesn't even have boots.

The human factor is still number one, no doubt about that.

 

[BoQ77]

Well, I think history, old and recent, show it is the human factor that makes the difference. Skill, determination, motivation and perseverance make the difference. Maybe in the future, wars will be fought with robots and then everything changes, but we are not there yet.

North Vietnam / Vietcong showed that, twice. The kurds keep showing that right now. ISIS fighters also show that. Look at the skills of the small Russian force in Syria and the difference that it made.

On the other hand, just think about the Iraqi army and how they flee right after the shooting starts.
Look at the Saudi arab coalition in Yemen with all their superior numbers and super high tech weapons, they are getting beat up by a rag tag army that doesn't even have boots.

The human factor is still number one, no doubt about that.

I myself love Kurd spirit, even Kurdish women.

 

[Carlosa]

I myself love Kurd spirit, even Kurdish women.

Absolutely, they are very good fighters.

Well, another example, just think about tiny Israel, now and before. In the past they didn't have as much equipment, but they always win against superior forces. There is stalemate, only when they refuse to push all the way, like in Lebanon or Gaza, usually for political reasons or US pressure. Otherwise, nobody can stop the Israeli army.