Vietnam strategic plans for building defence capability: Facts and Analysis

[Carlosa]

If you have to guess whether the next transport or surveillance aircraft ordered by Vietnam is Russia or Western. What's your answer ?
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Vietnam ordered 3x CASA C-212 Aviocar, @Carlosa could help us to understand what embedded in it.
3x EADS CASA C-295 ( Airbus )
6x Viking Twin Otter DHC-6 from Canada, integrated ELTA ELM-2022A sensor
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Ikhana has also completed modifications on the final pair of Viking Air-built DHC-6-400 Guardian maritime patrol and utility aircraft that are poised for delivery to the Vietnam Navy, marking the completion of the service’s first fleet of fixed-wing aircraft. The six Guardians are the first Western-made aircraft to be operated by the Vietnamese military and have been assigned to Air Force-Naval Brigade 954, with three configured for maritime patrol and three equipped for utility, VIP and transport missions.

Under the Vietnam Guardian program, Ikhana completed integration of a chin-mounted Elta search radar system with an electro-optical/infrared sensor suite. The interior was also modified with an operator console with an adjustable operator seat, observation “bubble” windows, lavatory and galley, as well as utility seats. The aircraft, which are operating in a mix of float- and wheel-equipped configurations, are also provisioned with Ikhana’s recently developed 14,000-lb. increased-payload capability package.

Representatives of the Vietnamese Navy, in collaboration with the GAET Company from the Ministry of Defense, worked with Viking and its local representative, Canam Active Enterprises Inc. for several years to develop this contract. The 6 Twin Otters are said to have sold for about C$ 6 million each. Three will be equipped for amphibious operations, with convertible interiors covering VIP, commuter, and utility layouts; the other 3 will be equipped as designated “Guardian 400” maritime patrol variants. The sale also includes sensor package options, and a comprehensive spares support package.

Ikhana Aircraft Services in Murrieta, CA handled the Guardian 400 conversion. Their RWMI DHC-6-400RG Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) raises the Twin Otter’s maximum operating weight from 12,500 pounds to of 14,000 lbs. on wheeled landing gear, or 13,600 lbs. on amphibious floats. An IAI Elta ELM-2022A maritime radar system and MiniPOP day/night surveillance turret are added, along with crew operating and convenience stations that include a lavatory and upgraded climate control.

The ELM-2022A is especially interesting. Its 256-target Track-While-Scan (TWS) capability is very good, but may be challenged in the very crowded environs of the South China Sea. In addition to maritime surveillance of large targets up to 200 nmi, IAI notes that the ELM-2022A “shares a high degree of commonality with the EL/M-2032 Fire-Control Radar [that equips many fighters], enabling Air-to-Air operationa [sic] modes.”

The Twin Otter’s low operating cost and endurance make that a very interesting option for Vietnam, which needs better aerial and maritime awareness. The 3 Guardian 400 Twin Otters are a long way behind even the small C295-AEW collaboration between IAI and Airbus. On the other hand, they’re an affordable start that can also help Vietnam begin the process of training their fighter pilots to operate with surveillance aircraft.

I did a very big posting in the past (2 times) about the CASA-212 with a lot of details that I had put together myself from many sources. I have to look for it later.

She's entitled to her own opinion. But I can understand her. I'm supportive of the Philippines modernization effort, but it doesn't mean I don't criticize them from time to time. In fact its healthy to point out the flaw in our military (cause we paid for them). On Vietnam's case its a bit hard because there's zero transparency & procurement plans are done behind closed door. So I don't really bother with Vietnam.

Thais soldiers are better paid, their equipment & training followed NATO standard, currently have the better tanks. In those area the Thais excel. Better equipment doesn't mean military hardware like SCUD or such, even simple things like NVG, body armors or even boots also count. For example Malaysia are better equipped than us. That's a fact. Weaker, no.

Its certainly fine for her to have her opinion and to show it, we are all ears ready to learn new things, but lets be balanced and don't deny the positive. Talk about both.

What better tank do they have? 10 modern tanks? The rest of the order got cancelled. Everything else is M-60, M-48 and M-41. I can't prove it, but there are many suggestions that VN is getting an order of almost 100 T-90 tanks, but as you said, since they are not transparent at all and they try to hide everything related to army equipment, then how can we compare? We are at a disadvantage here.

Thais soldiers are better paid, their equipment & training followed NATO standard, currently have the better tanks. In those area the Thais excel. Better equipment doesn't mean military hardware like SCUD or such, even simple things like NVG, body armors or even boots also count. For example Malaysia are better equipped than us. That's a fact. Weaker, no.

I hate to tell you, but when I was living in Thailand I used to meet some retired US army personnel that were doing contract maintenance work for US made equipment and consulting for the Thai army and what they had to say about them was a horror story, so don't tell me about their standards.

 

[BoQ77]

I just noticed that Vietnam may buy 3x C-295 AEW or similar design.
Russian make a guess that Vietnam would buy at least 2x C-295 AEW
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Lockheed Martin and Boeing must hurry up !!!

Boeing, Lockheed Martin Attend Vietnamese Arms Symposium
Dr. Fly Wed May 11, 2016 10:25am EST 11 Comments 1115

Relax Vets, it’s just business.

Next week President Obama will visit Vietnam. Shortly thereafter, he will likely lift the arms embargo on Vietnam, because that’s what Barry does.

Then, Boeing, Lockheed and maybe Raytheon will ink arms contract with our former mortal enemy, amounting to billions of dollars.

This reminds me of Iron Man the movie, when Stark’s partner was inking fucked up arms deals in secrecy, only in real life.

Vietnam has been in talks with Western and U.S. arms manufacturers for several years now to boost its fleets of fighter jets, helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft, although Russia, its traditional supplier, maintains a dominant position.

Industry sources say Hanoi is keen on U.S. weapons yet wary of the threat of a future embargo even if the current one ends. The countries do have a common concern in China, however, whose assertiveness in the South China Sea has alarmed Washington.
Obama is due to start his Vietnam visit on May 22, the first by a U.S. president in a decade, underlining the rapidly warming relationship between the countries at a time of testy ties and growing mistrust between Hanoi and Beijing, which have competing claims to the Paracel and Spratly islands.

MODERNIZATION NEEDS

A spokesman for Lockheed Martin confirmed the company was attending the Hanoi event.

Boeing is also attending, although the firm made it clear it was not in contravention of the embargo.

“I would like to point out that any defense-related sales to Vietnam will follow development of U.S. government policy on Vietnam,” a spokesman said.

“We believe Boeing has capabilities in mobility and intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance platforms that may meet Vietnam’s modernization needs.”

They need modernization.
===============
Vietnam looks interesting in P-3C

 

[Carlosa]

I just noticed that Vietnam may buy 3x C-295 AEW or similar design.
Russian make a guess that Vietnam would buy at least 2x C-295 AEW

I knew that they were buying 3 more C-295s, but I thought just cargo versions, are you sure about that?

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

I did a very big posting in the past (2 times) about the CASA-212 with a lot of details that I had put together myself from many sources. I have to look for it later.



Its certainly fine for her to have her opinion and to show it, we are all ears ready to learn new things, but lets be balanced and don't deny the positive. Talk about both.

What better tank do they have? 10 modern tanks? The rest of the order got cancelled. Everything else is M-60, M-48 and M-41. I can't prove it, but there are many suggestions that VN is getting an order of almost 100 T-90 tanks, but as you said, since they are not transparent at all and they try to hide everything related to army equipment, then how can we compare? We are at a disadvantage here.



I hate to tell you, but when I was living in Thailand I used to meet some retired US army personnel that were doing contract maintenance work for US made equipment and consulting for the Thai army and what they had to say about them was a horror story, so don't tell me about their standards.

See what I'm talking about 100 T-90 based on nothing. I'm guessing you haven't heard, but most of Vietnamese prediction ended up being false. From Frigate to Jets. That's why I steer away from them. That "Viet" guy 4 example wanted his gov to buy a god-dang Arleigh Burke. Also another side of not publishing a white paper means there is a large chance of many of its hardware are non operational & one of the reason a country withheld the information so it can falsify how many hard wares they have. A Vietnamese blogger even said that there's a couple of fighters just sitting there in the hangar doing nothing. Example; North Korea.

Whatever Horror story you heard of the Thais I heard worse from the Philippines & I'm still supporting them. Probably I don't focus on the bad stuff & because I'm not bias.

 

[Carlosa]

See what I'm talking about 100 T-90 based on nothing. I'm guessing you haven't heard, but most of Vietnamese prediction ended up being false. From Frigate to Jets. That's why I steer away from them. That "Viet" guy 4 example wanted his gov to buy a god-dang Arleigh Burke. Also another side of not publishing a white paper means there is a large chance of many of its hardware are non operational & one of the reason a country withheld the information so it can falsify how many hard wares they have. A Vietnamese blogger even said that there's a couple of fighters just sitting there in the hangar doing nothing. Example; North Korea.

Whatever Horror story you heard of the Thais I heard worse from the Philippines & I'm still supporting them. Probably I don't focus on the bad stuff & because I'm not bias.

Come on man, Viet dreaming about AEGIS destroyers is his personal dream, nobody has ever seriously said that Vietnam is going to buy AEGIS destroyers. You are mixing up things and anyway, how is the Thai army with 10 modern tanks (that have a lot of issues) and a very old stock of M-60 / 48 / 41 tanks qualified as a well equipped army as in your previous statement?

The Philippines is not the issue here, you talked about the NATO standards of the Thai army and I'm telling you that their standards are a horror story, particularly maintenance, that's why they lose helicopters in an amazing way, because of bad maintenance and negligence. Actually, the army equipment is very, very well maintained in the VPA and the Russians highly praised the Vietnamese many times when it comes to maintenance.

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

I agree, they should reduce the size of the army.

For some reason they like the P-3 a lot, I don't know why. I also think that the C-295 MPA / ASW should be better and is new, but........

Vietnam should indeed reduce its Army.

And start to fund in Navy including amphibious operations, more submarine, ASW aircrafts like P-3. And more importantly start to fund in nuclear program and in delivery system.

I dont know Vietnam have any ungaurded nuclear reactor or not.

 

[Carlosa]

Vietnam should indeed reduce its Army.

And start to fund in Navy including amphibious operations, more submarine, ASW aircrafts like P-3. And more importantly start to fund in nuclear program and in delivery system.

I dont know Vietnam have any ungaurded nuclear reactor or not.

Absolutely !!!!

Vietnam has a nuclear reactor for research in the city of Dalat and they are going to build a much bigger one.

They also have a program of nuclear power plants from Russia and Japan coming up, so many of the elements are / will be in place.

 

[Gen Padmanabhan]

I wish you could point out what difference between:
- A theory never been proved.
- And lesson learn from clashes: VPA vs USA in Year 1, one win one lose; back to home, study to improve, back to Year 2, one win one lose, then Year 3 ... finally, they have 9 years of continuous touch to each other tactic and weapon.
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Although the superior of US air force is clear, is a game changer, for example, in Khe Sanh - Lang Vei, the fact that without air force bombing power, US Marines could come to the direction French soldiers in Dien Bien Phu did go. Surrender.
So the initial theory that USA is better than VPA in performance is not true.
Cause you based on that, you are thinking "copy USA and your army would be better". Terribly wrong.
200 Chinese tanks was destroyed in 1 month in 1979 mostly by RPG-7. Are you going to call RPG-7 and local militias are inferior to MBT ?

Vietnam cant repeat those years. Forget about it.

Neither PLA is of Korean war, nor Vietnam Army is of Vietnam war. Now this is almost next to impossible to sustain such high losses and that too for a decade.

I am using harsh word, but if Vietnam remained in her dreams & legacy of past Vietnam War, thats for sure they going to loose next one.

Vietnam need to work on new doctrines, Command & Control structures and plans to meet the current threat. Further, Vietnam need to increase the defence budget by four fold.

 

[Carlosa]

Vietnam cant repeat those years. Forget about it.

Neither PLA is of Korean war, nor Vietnam Army is of Vietnam war. Now this is almost next to impossible to sustain such high losses and that too for a decade.

I am using harsh word, but if Vietnam remained in her dreams & legacy of past Vietnam War, thats for sure they going to loose next one.

Vietnam need to work on new doctrines, Command & Control structures and plans to meet the current threat. Further, Vietnam need to increase the defence budget by four fold.

Well said, but I will say that Vietnamese have one hell of a fighting spirit and that makes a big difference. I live in Vietnam and is easy for me to see that. I lived in Thailand in the past and I can say that is the opposite there.

Another problem is also that the military establishment, as it is typical of government bureaucracies in this part of the world, its an ossified old guard cadre with corruption and incompetence issues. That's what is at the center of what @madokafc was saying, that's the actual reason for the problems that she mentioned.

 

[BoQ77]

Come on man, Viet dreaming about AEGIS destroyers is his personal dream, nobody has ever seriously said that Vietnam is going to buy AEGIS destroyers. You are mixing up things and anyway, how is the Thai army with 10 modern tanks (that have a lot of issues) and a very old stock of M-60 / 48 / 41 tanks qualified as a well equipped army as in your previous statement?

The Philippines is not the issue here, you talked about the NATO standards of the Thai army and I'm telling you that their standards are a horror story, particularly maintenance, that's why they lose helicopters in an amazing way, because of bad maintenance and negligence. Actually, the army equipment is very, very well maintained in the VPA and the Russians highly praised the Vietnamese many times when it comes to maintenance.

You may visit thís for list of Vietnam equipments:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ietnam_People's_Ground_Forces#Ground_vehicles
LOL
Here is M48 in Vietnam stock. Look like new !!!

PAVN M41

Thailand military coup 2006

 

[Carlosa]

You may visit thís for list of Vietnam equipments:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ietnam_People's_Ground_Forces#Ground_vehicles
LOL
Here is M48 in Vietnam stock. Look like new !!!

Thank you, I've known about that page for years, Its one of my bookmarks.

 

[Viet]

Nobody is saying the Vietnamese army are weak. I just said the Thai army are better equipped. Carlosa just put words over my mouth. I'm just pointing about his hypocrisy that saying RTA are "weak" because apparently he has bias against them. While I don't even say anything bad about VPA other than valid criticism. Also to be noted is that Thailand have no need for a large standing army like Vietnam because they are pretty much covered by the west. Comparing the RTA with the VPA is like comparing a walking man with the one that is running. If Thailand is really serious about defending itself you can bet you arse that they will have more weapons than Vietnam, GDP wise.

This is only a suggestion, but I think instead of looking at the IDF you might want to learn about its enemy:
http://www.conflictsforum.org/2006/how-hezbollah-defeated-israel/
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/07/world/middleeast/07hezbollah.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0



I'm only suggesting because you & Carlosa seems to be a proponent of Asymmetric warfare.

nobody in VN takes the thai army seriously.

 

[BoQ77]

Looking how Syrian army dumbed their advanced T90 tanks that way, I dont consider them as a well trained army.

Vietnam soldiers are taught saving every single bullet in combat.

Grad-P originally a design based on request of PAVN

BM-21 Grad

In Vietnam military museum.
This clearly need more personnel than BM-21 Grad, but more lethality

Even more simple

 

[Carlosa]

Looking how Syrian army dumbed their advanced T90 tanks that way, I dont consider them as a well trained army.

Vietnam soldiers are taught saving every single bullet in combat.

Grad-P originally a design based on request of PAVN

BM-21 Grad

In Vietnam military museum.
This clearly need more personnel than BM-21 Grad, but more lethality

Even more simple

Do you know if there is a plan to upgrade the 4 Tarantul ships to Molniya standards?

 

[BoQ77]

Do you know if there is a plan to upgrade the 4 Tarantul ships to Molniya standards?

they docked in Cam Ranh for all the time, maybe busy in training. So if they will be upgraded, it isnt at this moment.