Vietnam strategic plans for building defence capability: Facts and Analysis

[Nike]

You found no similar Brigade Combat Team in VPA ?

not with the structural ranks and flexibility like the ones i found on Brigade Golani and among other, VPA had no comparison.

You found no similar Brigade Combat Team in VPA ?

not with the structural ranks and flexibility like i found on Brigade Golani and among other in IDF, your structure still rigid and that's why some of Vietnamese high ranking official had visit Jakarta to propose joint training and among other things to give more hintsight about the reform on VPA

just for some hintsight...

Israeli infantry corps, they like small but flexible units and so can do multiple task and mission to suit the nature of challenge and environment they must cope or dealt with. For example, Nahal or Golani or Baslamach Brigade, they had several infantry battalion with multiple skills and capability to conduct mission from air or assault type units with armor. They had Special forces unit attached on the Brigade to give them flexibility to conduct SAR type mission without resorting to General HQ units in which will give delay and compromised the possibility of element of surprise in the fields. Not to mention the fire support they had, they got them all in just one Brigade Combat Team. And that's why US Army emulate those kind of type structure and ranks to cope with the current situation they must dealt with

And then we can compared them with VPA, in which your army is divided in large structure and inflexible type of units among them. If any of your commander want to do some special forces type of jobs they must calling General HQ to get those specific type of infantry units in works, and when they want to calling artillery strike, they must ordering them from another battalion units serving under the same Division and that's came along with the bureaucracy in it.

 

[BoQ77]

There're independent brigades in VPA, as special force brigades, armored vehicle brigades, paratroopers , artilery ...
which act as supplements to other infantry unit when needed. Is it similar to term "brigade combat team" ?

It's popular to see the cooperation in combat of some divisions of infantry, some companies or 1 brigade of special force and some companies of tanks.

 

[Nike]

There're independent brigades in VPA, as special force brigades, armored vehicle brigades, paratroopers , artilery ...
which act as supplements to other infantry unit when needed. Is it similar to term "brigade combat team" ?

There's also "independent companies" within.

no lah, in IDF, you sometimes will found them in just one Brigade. Not to mention, several infantry units in IDF hold several type of badges, like demolition badges, para badges, jump badges, specialist heavy weapon badges and other.

and that's a common traits among infantry units in IDF

 

[BoQ77]

no lah, in IDF, you sometimes will found them in just one Brigade. Not to mention, several infantry units in IDF hold several type of badges, like demolition badges, para badges, jump badges, specialist heavy weapon badges and other.

and that's a common traits among infantry units in IDF

An infantry brigade in VPA normally including:
4 infantry battalion
1 artillery battalion
1 air defence battalion
Companies of Medic, Tanks, Transport, Communications, Rocket Artillery, Logistic, Surveillance, Chemical Warfare, Engineers, Anti-tank, Guards, Spare parts...

Btw, VPA set and adjust their organizations based on experiences in real combats of Vietnam War, Cambodia invasion and Sino Viet border conflict... and in relative capability comparison between them and enemies.

Clearly, they don't use the same structure of USA to fight USA, and be destroyed totally.

Israel themselves never fight an enemy like USA. Same to Indonesia, Thailand...

 

[Viet]

Vietnam need to upgrading their Army, reducing the number of standing army personnel and saving money for more equipment, training and modernizing their doctrine. Most of Vietnamese army personnel and units still using old equipment which can be traced as far as WW II. The other area need to be upgraded is their ISR capability, this ones is very lacking and till very recently Vietnam still focusing to procuring more and more fire power without regarding the capability to find more valuable information and exact points they intended to bring those firepower they must muster to.

Sorry, to say, Vietnamese ground units situation is very same like the Syrian Arab Army before the Revolution/Arab Spring. Only focusing to using and collecting outdated equipment in large number combined with old tactics and mindset from the cold war era. If they must facing other armies with modern equipment (even if they just infantry support tools like modern ATGM, RPGs and anti-material sniper rifle) and more flexibility in engagement and tactics, Vietnam army will suffer a great deal.

sure, our army needs more modern weaponry, but comparing our ground army to that of arab states, shows you are a silly girl. VN real strength is NOT weapons, but intelligence. the history proves it, against enemies that were 10 times bigger than us: the chinese, the mongols, the manchu, the japanese, at the height of their powers the siamese, the khmer, the cham and many more. not forget the french, the americans. even the most delusional chinese generals would think twice before risking a land war with VN. we beat them more times than my 10 fingers.

 

[BoQ77]

Only military factories could get orders from Army, Navy, ... they have the state of art equipments to complete large orders in very short time as readiness for any possibly war.
But in peacetime, they could get orders not only from Army, Navy, ... but also from civilian sectors and foreign customers.
And earn money for more fund to Defence budget.

189 , 173, Song Thu shipyards .... are always busy in building ships for foreign customers.
Garment factories could provide both uniform to Vietnam Navy or Old Navy brand, LOL.
Chemical factories make fireworks for export, while a mechanical factory produce BBQ oven for a brand from Germany and brake disc for Honda motorbikes.

Some years ago, they awarded a plague for export value ( several millions USD ).
A big factory who make artilery shells and rocket, missile bodies, grips for firearm ... are producing IKEA products when I visited at site.

All for saving the defence budget and more fund to weapon purchase.

What about airforce??

ASW planes for sure.
Alternatives for obsolete Mig-21 and Su-22

 

[AbRaj]

Only military factories could get orders from Army, Navy, ... they have the state of art equipments to complete large orders in very short time as readiness for any possibly war.
But in peacetime, they could get orders not only from Army, Navy, ... but also from civilian sectors and foreign customers.
And earn money for more fund to Defence budget.

189 , 173, Song Thu shipyards .... are always busy in building ships for foreign customers.
Garment factories could provide both uniform to Vietnam Navy or Old Navy brand, LOL.
Chemical factories make fireworks for export, while a mechanical factory produce BBQ oven for a brand from Germany and brake disc for Honda motorbikes.

Some years ago, they awarded a plague for export value ( several millions USD ).
A big factory who make artilery shells and rocket, missile bodies, grips for firearm ... are producing IKEA products when I visited at site.

All for saving the defence budget and more fund to weapon purchase.



ASW planes for sure.
Alternatives for obsolete Mig-21 and Su-22

You mean Boing p8 or IL 38?
Which planes Vietnam is looking for?
Why not commission additional squadrons of su 30/35? That would be cost effective since you already have them

 

[BoQ77]

@Viet : just ignore him

You mean Boing p8 or IL 38?
Which planes Vietnam is looking for?
Why not commission additional squadrons of su 30/35? That would be cost effective since you already have them

P8 or P3C or SC130J
I think something like F16 or F-2 ... would be suitable to the need of light interceptors.
But likely, maybe improved Mig-29 variant could be the candidate... because Vietnam is more familiar to Russian aircrafts.

 

[AbRaj]

@Viet : just ignore him


P8 or P3C or SC130J
I think something like F16 or F-2 ... would be suitable to the need of light interceptors.
But likely, maybe improved Mig-29 variant could be the candidate..

F16 are good but don't rely on US too much. They know how to arm twist in case of need.
Look at Pakistan

 

[Carlosa]

You mean Boing p8 or IL 38?
Which planes Vietnam is looking for?
Why not commission additional squadrons of su 30/35? That would be cost effective since you already have them

P-3 and SU-35 are what is most wanted right now. After that it would be SU-30 SM. The production line for SU-30MK2 is closing right now, so can't get those anymore. There is also some talk of SU-34 as well as some western fighters such as Rafale and Gripen.

 

[Carlosa]

no lah, in IDF, you sometimes will found them in just one Brigade. Not to mention, several infantry units in IDF hold several type of badges, like demolition badges, para badges, jump badges, specialist heavy weapon badges and other.

and that's a common traits among infantry units in IDF

To be fair, have to remember that the IDF is just about, man per man, the best army in the world, so not many armies look very good when compared to them. The Golani brigade is one of the best units in the Israeli army, if not the best one, so how many others compare well against them? Also, the Golani brigade is one of the most battle hardened units of the IDF and that certainly makes a difference also. Lets not forget that the IDF is in a constant state of semi warfare.

The Vietnamese army certainly has weaknesses, but also have strengths, their special forces are second to none, the marine special forces leave the US navy seals way behind, its just amazing how they train and what they are able to do, the chinese are particularly weary about them because they know what they can do as they found out the hard way in some skirmishes in the SCS (these things were never published by the way, but very real, Eldad reef, etc).

Also, the mobilization capability of the Vietnamese military is second to none and very similar to the IDF. I've seen it myself at one point when a typhoon was approaching central Vietnam and the military mobilized over 100.000 servicemen and militiamen in one area in 24 hours. How many militaries can do that? The US certainly can't, that I know for sure.

So lets be balanced. They need to improve in some areas, but they are doing quite well in other areas. They've been setting up a number of independent brigades for some years now and they are doing quite a bit of experimenting.

I can also say that they train a lot. I would also caution about rushing to conclusions since the Vietnamese army is very secretive, they let you see what they want you to see and nothing else. That also applies to what equipment they have. There are many weapon systems that they are known to have but not a single picture of them have ever been published, ex: Thor air defense systems, SAM-6, etc. They are known for that, so again, unless you have classified information, I would not rush to conclusions too easily. My 2 cents....

 

[Nike]

Nah i ve talk with some Vietnamese envoys here and there in several occasion in Jakarta, singapore even moscwa because my jobs, my comments is based on their own conclussion. It will be no surprise if Vietnam trying to adopt voluntary service to get more pro soldier instead Soviet like draftee type

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

To be fair, have to remember that the IDF is just about, man per man, the best army in the world, so not many armies look very good when compared to them. The Golani brigade is one of the best units in the Israeli army, if not the best one, so how many others compare well against them? Also, the Golani brigade is one of the most battle hardened units of the IDF and that certainly makes a difference also. Lets not forget that the IDF is in a constant state of semi warfare.

The Vietnamese army certainly has weaknesses, but also have strengths, their special forces are second to none, the marine special forces leave the US navy seals way behind, its just amazing how they train and what they are able to do, the chinese are particularly weary about them because they know what they can do as they found out the hard way in some skirmishes in the SCS (these things were never published by the way, but very real, Eldad reef, etc).

Also, the mobilization capability of the Vietnamese military is second to none and very similar to the IDF. I've seen it myself at one point when a typhoon was approaching central Vietnam and the military mobilized over 100.000 servicemen and militiamen in one area in 24 hours. How many militaries can do that? The US certainly can't, that I know for sure.

So lets be balanced. They need to improve in some areas, but they are doing quite well in other areas. They've been setting up a number of independent brigades for some years now and they are doing quite a bit of experimenting.

I can also say that they train a lot. I would also caution about rushing to conclusions since the Vietnamese army is very secretive, they let you see what they want you to see and nothing else. That also applies to what equipment they have. There are many weapon systems that they are known to have but not a single picture of them have ever been published, ex: Thor air defense systems, SAM-6, etc. They are known for that, so again, unless you have classified information, I would not rush to conclusions too easily. My 2 cents....

To be fair the one that makes the IDF comparison was BoQ. Madoka only said that Vietnam are still following cold war Era thinking which is true.

In comparison China are adopting US style of military thinking
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...g-it-more-similar-to-the-u-s-style-of-command
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ger-leaner-more-lethal-chinese-military-15290

Even Thailand are better equipped than the Vietnamese.

 

[Carlosa]

Nah i ve talk with some Vietnamese envoys here and there in several occasion in Jakarta, singapore even moscwa because my jobs, my comments is based on their own conclussion. It will be no surprise if Vietnam trying to adopt voluntary service to get more pro soldier instead Soviet like draftee type

No problem, I'm not saying is one way or the other and I said that they certainly have weaknesses, but I don't believe that the picture only has negatives and no positives.

When it comes to equipment, your analysis is not realistic, is rather partial, you look at one particular area (the ground forces) and you extend it to the whole of the Vietnamese military; Come on, you have a bias, I never seen you saying one positive thing about the Vietnamese military, only critiques. Can you tell me about any military in ASEAN, other than Singapore, that has a good, modern military, Indonesia included?

Regarding equipment, read my next post.

To be fair the one that makes the IDF comparison was BoQ. Madoka only said that Vietnam are still following cold war Era thinking which is true.

In comparison China are adopting US style of military thinking
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...g-it-more-similar-to-the-u-s-style-of-command
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ger-leaner-more-lethal-chinese-military-15290

Even Thailand are better equipped than the Vietnamese.

Now, that's a good one. You guys are biased, I can tell you the same thing that I just told to Madokafc.

Even Thailand are better equipped than the Vietnamese? Really?

Does Thailand have any equivalent of S-300, Buk-M2E, Pantsyr, Spyder or coastal missile batteries? Do their 12 Gripens match the 36 SU-30s of Vietnam? How about 6 subs? Do they produce anti ship missiles? Lets not even talk about their defense industry, because it sucks and don't tell me that is a highly professional army, I used to live there. Except a few elite units, they are only good for killing civilians and doing coups.

Sorry, but you guys are BIASED !!!! Feel free to talk about the negatives, but should also mention the positives.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Now, that's a good one. You guys are biased, I can tell you the same thing that I just said to Madokafc.

Even Thailand are better equipped than the Vietnamese? Really?

Does Thailand have any equivalent of S-300, Buk-M2E, Pantsyr, Spyder or coastal missile batteries? Do their 12 Gripens match the 36 SU-30s of Vietnam? How about 6 subs? Do they produce anti ship missiles? Lets not even talk about their defense industry, because it sucks and don't tell me that is a highly professional army, I used to live there. Except a few elite units, they are only good for killing civilians and doing coups.

Sorry, but you guys are BIASED !!!! Feel free to talk about the negatives, but should also mention the positives.

That's cute calling people bias, but let your own bias to form your own opinion on the Thais. "I've been to Japan therefore their army sucked. Despite I never once visited any Japanese base."

Also calling the Thai army better equipped than the Viet is about as objective as it get. Go to any other military sites and they will give you the same answer. Because unlike Vietnam it actually has something it never have "Transparency." Most of Vietnam's equipment are of cold war remnants with some of it dating back to WW2 except for those you just mentioned this is a fact. Also Thai don't need to maintain many weapons around because of their foreign policy. Thai Oplot 4 example is the most advanced MBT in Mainland ASEAN & the Thai army hated them.

I cannot vouch for the quality of Thai soldiers but considering that Thailand has sent soldiers to numerous military exercises especially with the US I expect them to learn something.