Vietnam Defence Forum

[Viet]

Correct, the first warhead destroys the outer layer of the armor, the "ERA" explosive reactive armor, that opens the way to the second warhead which is the one that penetrates into the tank. Lethal combination, all tanks tested were destroyed. Some of the tanks tested are the T-90, T-72, T-80, M-1 Abrams, etc.

The RPG-29 was also tested against tanks together with the Kornet Russian antitank missile (which has a pretty good reputation) and sure enough, the RPG-29 was the winner. The Kornet could not penetrate some tanks, but the RPG-29 did its job with flying colors every time.

That's why I said, Chinese tanks type-99 / 89, etc, no problem, bring them on, Vietnamese infantrymen with RPG-29's will send them to the recycling center for junk metal.



View attachment 35759

just found a pic: a infantryman with (Vietnam-made) RPG-29

still, recently they selling their inventory stock with upgrade package such as Revolution and Evolution. Spain and Switzerlands too, they are looking for potential customer for their old Leo 2A4 vanilla versions. Israel too, they are wanna to sell their advanced weapons for cash amid recent backlash in economic situation in Israel right now.

one thing must be noted, if Vietnam suddenly procure an advance MBT such as Leo2 or Merkava i think they will doing great in urban warfare or to halting the advance of enemy armored columns and supporting infantry units around them. And such operations doesn't need extensive supporting unit for their movement in rural areas of Vietnam. They will do great to holding positions or lines until reinforcement came. The ongoing price is vary according to upgrading specification do you want, but vanilla version is around 600.000 US dollar to 800.000 US dollar, Revo variant is around 2,4 millions bucks to 3,2 millions bucks.

It must be great if Vietnam follow the India steps to procure at least two type of advanced MBT (Arjun and T-90 Bhisma) with different characteristics to cope any potential scenario in warfare.

the 1-billion dollar question is if Russia is willing to provide technology of producing T-90 tank to Vietnam?
I am pretty sure Chinese will do everything they can to sabotage the move.

 

[Carlosa]

the 1-billion dollar question is if Russia is willing to provide technology of producing T-90 tank to Vietnam?
I am pretty sure Chinese will do everything they can to sabotage the move.

I really don't know. That type of deal depends on serious money / tank numbers I would imagine and now Russia does military sales pretty much as a commercial business. I don't know how much influence the Chinese have with Russia these days. The fact that Russia didn't do any official statement about the oil rig is already a bad sign and at the same time Russia knows that China is a rival, but I would suspect that Russia will not compromise its arm sales with Vietnam and after all, they want to use the Cam Ranh base.

Have to also consider, did Vietnam ask for the T-90 license production and tech transfer? I didn't hear any rumor about that, have you?

I added more pics and info to my post about the RPG-29 by the way.

 

[Viet]

I really don't know. That type of deal depends on serious money / tank numbers I would imagine and now Russia does military sales pretty much as a commercial business. I don't know how much influence the Chinese have with Russia these days. The fact that Russia didn't do any official statement about the oil rig is already a bad sign and at the same time Russia knows that China is a rival, but I would suspect that Russia will not compromise its arm sales with Vietnam and after all, they want to use the Cam Ranh base.

Have to also consider, did Vietnam ask for the T-90 license production and tech transfer? I didn't hear any rumor about that, have you?

I added more pics and info to my post about the RPG-29 by the way.

No, I have a little info just VN army looks to purchase T-90.
About the question whether we can afford the cost, let make some equations.

Assume Russia transfers the technology and VN produces the tanks for $2m a piece including weapons.
1,000 tanks would cost $2b including weapons.

According to latest data, VN economy generates $2b current account surplus per month.
So that should not be a problem to finance the deal.

 

[Carlosa]

No, I have a little info just VN army looks to purchase T-90.
About the question whether we can afford the cost, let make some equations.

Assume Russia transfers the technology and VN produces the tanks for $2m a piece including weapons.
1,000 tanks would cost $2b including weapons.

According to latest data, VN economy generates $2b current account surplus per month.
So that should not be a problem to finance the deal.

That would be nice. $2 million a piece its quite cheap. The price new I hear that is about 4 to 4.5 million. There is also a license fee and all the key components, engine, etc have to be imported anyway, so I'm not sure about that price, but anyway, the advantages of license production are very significant for the future and gradually VN can produce more and more of the components.

If that $2 billion a month surplus is actually available to be spent for defense, then VN better get going with ordering more jets, ships, subs, ballistic missiles, S-400's, coastal missile batteries, ships for the coast guard, etc because the northern bully is knocking at the door......

Actually, the army also has quite a long shopping list too, many APC's and IFV's need to be replaced, PT-76 need to be upgraded or replaced, more helicopters, etc.

The marines need more LST's and support vehicles, etc.
AWACS, Maritime / ASW patrol planes, etc.

Need to use some of that surplus for the next few years I think. Actually, if VN can afford to spend an extra 3 or 4 billion a year, that would already make a big difference and in just 4 or 5 years VN would be in a much better position to defend itself.

 

[Viet]

Vietnam and the Netherlands have signed several agreements during the visit of the Netherlands Prime Minister to Hanoi. Among them, Damen Vietnam shipyards will build not only the SIGMA class corvettes but bigger warships as frigates as option for the near future.

 

[Viet]

a Su-30MK2 dropping unguided bombs

 

[tbquestion]

Correct, according to the testing done with the dual tandem warhead of the RPG-29, most shots destroyed all tanks tested including the T-90.

Where 's your source?!?
Here's mine.
Google rpg-29 and t-90. wikipedia shows that a t-90 withstand 7 rpg-

just found a pic: a infantryman with (Vietnam-made) RPG-29

the 1-billion dollar question is if Russia is willing to provide technology of producing T-90 tank to Vietnam?
I am pretty sure Chinese will do everything they can to sabotage the move.

India has to buy at least 310 t-90 before technology transfer was offered. India is currently upgrading their t-90 as the thermal imaging of the russian tank is not suitable for hot weather.

source defensenewscom:
India contracted to acquire 310 T-90s from Russia in 2001, 190 of which were license-produced at the Avadi-based, state-owned ordnance factory. Another contract was signed in 2007 for the licensed production of 330 tanks. The lack of an air conditioning system in these tanks caused damage to their thermal imaging systems when operating in hot climates, an Army official said

Recently, Ukranian rebels suffered heavy casualty against govt 's tanks, even when they were able to destroy one tank out of twenty. In order to be effective, RPG has to be in certain distance/ position and there are countermeasure against them when they are detected, such as snipers,mortar, artillery etc. Thats why rpg can never replace tanks.

 

[tbquestion]

Where 's your source?!?
Here's mine.
Google rpg-29 and t-90. wikipedia shows that a t-90 withstand 7 rpg-

India has to buy at least 310 t-90 before technology transfer was offered. India is currently upgrading their t-90 as the thermal imaging of the russian tank is not suitable for hot weather.

source defensenewscom:
India contracted to acquire 310 T-90s from Russia in 2001, 190 of which were license-produced at the Avadi-based, state-owned ordnance factory. Another contract was signed in 2007 for the licensed production of 330 tanks. The lack of an air conditioning system in these tanks caused damage to their thermal imaging systems when operating in hot climates, an Army official said

Recently, Ukranian rebels suffered heavy casualty against govt 's tanks, even when they were able to destroy one tank out of twenty. In order to be effective, RPG has to be in certain distance/ position and there are countermeasure against them when they are detected, such as snipers,mortar, artillery etc. Thats why rpg can never replace tanks.

httpwwwdefensenewscom/article/20140310/DEFREG03/303100026/Indian-Army-Upgrade-T-90-Tanks-Domestic-Help

It seems from reading the article that the T-90 wasn't design with hot weather in mind (thermal imaging damage) and even with technlogy transfer agreement b/t India and Russia, Russia is still holding back key designs. Vietnam can attest to that with Kh-35 missile technology transfer deal.

So in additional to buying the T-90, Vietnam will have to spend money installing AC for the tanks. Russia is truly a capitalist beast.

 

[Carlosa]

Where 's your source?!?
Here's mine.
Google rpg-29 and t-90. wikipedia shows that a t-90 withstand 7 rpg-.

Here is the info, the T-90 was tested against RPG-29, antitank missiles and APFSDS tank munition. 5 shots in each case. The RPG-29 was the only weapon able to penetrate the T-90, 3 times out of 5 shots. Quite remarkable.

20.10.1999 T-80U and T-90 Protection Trials
On October 20, 1999 extensive trials of T-80U and T-90 protection from various types of threats were conducted at TsNIIO 643aTesting Grounds. The tests involved firing large amounts of ordnance (including several versions of RPG ATGL, light and heavy ATGMs, and APFSDS rounds) at frontal projections of T-80U and T-90 MBTs both protected with Kontakt-V ERA and stripped of it.

T-80U and T-90 MBTs were represented by 3 vehicles each, one with Kontakt-V ERA, one with removed explosive packages and one reserve vehicle. For the ERA part of trials, knocked-out ERA packages were replaced after each shot.

One more T-80U MBT was used for special trials that focused on testing of Shtora-1 EOCMDAS.

The following weapons were used:

• Infantry ATGLs (fired at a distance of 40m)
  • RPG-7 (using advanced 105mm grenade PG-7VR with a tandem warhead, pen. 650mm RHA)
  • RPG-26 (disposable launcher, pen. >500mm RHA)
  • RPG-29 (advanced 105mm launcher, pen. 750mm RHA)
• ATGMs (fired at a distance of 600m)
  • Malyutka-2 (pen. >600mm RHA)
  • Metis (pen. 460mm RHA)
  • Konkurs (pen. 650mm RHA)
  • Kornet (pen. >850mm RHA)
• APFSDS (fired from T-80U MBT at a distance of 1,500m, the most likely round is 3BM42)

Each weapon was fired 5 times at each target, for a total of 20 shots per weapon. The total number of shots fired during the trials thus exceeded 150.
The trials yielded the following outcome:

• ATGLs
  • T-90: RPG-29 produced a total of 3 penetrations.
    No other RPG rounds could penetrate even the stripped target.
  • T-80U: RPG-29 penetrated 3 times with ERA, all 5 times without ERA.
    Of all other grenades, one PG-7VR penetrated the stripped target.
• ATGMs
  • T-90: No ATGMs could penetrate the ERA-equipped target. One Kornet ATGM penetrated the stripped target.
  • T-80U: 2 Kornet ATGMs penetrated the ERA-equipped target, all 5 penetrated the stripped target.
    No other ATGMs could penetrate.
• APFSDS
  • T-90: ERA-equipped target could not be penetrated. Furthermore, after firing the crew entered the vehicle, activated it and was able to execute the firing sequence.
    Without ERA, one round penetrated.
  • T-80U (data available only for stripped target): One round almost penetrated (3mm hole in the inner lining, no visible equipment damage); two penetrated to 1/2 thickness; one missed the target completely; one hit the gun.

The following pictures show the locations of impacts by ATGL RPG-29 (in red) and ATGM Kornet (in black) against ERA-equipped vehicles. Which of these hits penetrated was not disclosed.

Shtora-1 Trials
10 Kornet ATGMs with removed warheads were fired at a tank with a crew. 4 ATGMs hit the tank, the other 6 deviated to the left of the target in the middle of the flight.



Conclusions (VF)

• RPG-29 proved to be by far the most potent weapon among those used. As powerful as heavy ATGM Kornet, it appeared to assure the frontal penetration of T-80U even for the squad-level firepower. Even though T-90 fared better, it is still not immune to it. Considering sufficient proliferation of this weapon and the fact that this is still a fairly light infantry weapon, it is the most dangerous adversary of modern Russian MBTs, and is a very disturbing development.
• Original reports that ATGM Kornet performance is severely degraded by ERA due to its peculiar order of internal components proved true as the ATGM with at least 100mm higher penetrating potential was not superior to a much lighter RPG-29.
• Report of Shtora-1 EOCMDAS trials is confusing. Being laser-guided, ATGM Kornet should not suffer any interference from Shtora as it only affects IR SACLOS ATGMs. Furthermore, ATGMs can only deviate to the left if the marker is set to the left of both emitters, which is hardly likely. It is possible, however unlikely, that it was caused by a sloppy work of removal the warhead which e.g. could cause a gyro cofusion.

 

[William Hung]

To Spanish guy, you need to stop ruining this thread and turning it into another chit chat discussion thing like do you with the thread on MP. Stick to the present and post only current Viet military hardware photos or official military news. And please do not post rumour/news from some blog/facebook/forums or some guy masquerading as a Viet general on the internet.

The Viet military photo thread on MP. net is hilarious lol. The contrast between the Viet and PLA photo thread is so big. In the PLA thread there are constant photos of new commissioned ship, planes, new prototype gears etc. In the Viet thread there are hardly anything new, just a bunch of old ships, small arms and the silly food that your soldiers eat.

The funniest thing is that half of the thread are chats made by a bunch of viet kids pretending to be somebody else (one pretend to be Spanish, one pretend to be German, one has a fake Aussie flag and the other pretend that he is a special agent insider lol). All they do is chit chat dreaming what weapons their country should have lol. It's like a bunch of little kids asking each other what would you buy if you won 1million dollar?

This thread is becoming like that. I come here to check what new toys VN military have but I only see pages of chit chat dreaming lol. I'm disappointed.

 

[Nike]

The Viet military photo thread on MP. net is hilarious lol. The contrast between the Viet and PLA photo thread is so big. In the PLA thread there are constant photos of new commissioned ship, planes, new prototype gears etc. In the Viet thread there are hardly anything new, just a bunch of old ships, small arms and the silly food that your soldiers eat.

The funniest thing is that half of the thread are chats made by a bunch of viet kids pretending to be somebody else (one pretend to be Spanish, one pretend to be German, one has a fake Aussie flag and the other pretend that he is a special agent insider lol). All they do is chit chat dreaming what weapons their country should have lol. It's like a bunch of little kids asking each other what would you buy if you won 1million dollar?

This thread is becoming like that. I come here to check what new toys VN military have but I only see pages of chit chat dreaming lol. I'm disappointed.

If you disappointed you can leave this thread and no need to leave that trash like comment

 

[William Hung]

If you disappointed you can leave this thread and no need to leave that trash like comment

Go read the Viet photo thread on MP. net for yourself. Other smaller military like the Thai army, Malaysia, Chile army or whatever they don't always have new hardware or photos to post but at least their people don't go in posting chit chat on a PHOTO thread and pretending to be some white people.

 

[Nike]

Can you see the title of this thread? Vietnam Military News and Discussion. Discussion itself means chit-chat, what is wrong with that? And it is not Mp.net, we are in def.pk.

 

[Carlosa]

Go read the Viet photo thread on MP. net for yourself. Other smaller military like the Thai army, Malaysia, Chile army or whatever they don't always have new hardware or photos to post but at least their people don't go in posting chit chat on a PHOTO thread and pretending to be some white people.

I wonder how did you get to the conclusion that I'm not Spanish, care to explain?

 

[William Hung]

I wonder how did you get to the conclusion that I'm not Spanish, care to explain?

I've been a member of MP for a long time now and it's obvious. Those fake German and Aussie guy, they never post in any thread related to their country, only about VN. And they're really passionate about it.

You usually make an effort to address VN as an outsider (calling it "your" country or "your" army when chatting with them, or saying "Vietnam" instead of "us" or "we" etc) but once you made a slip up and said "our" soldiers when posting some pictures lol.