Vietnam Defence Forum

[Carlosa]

1000 years is too dim and far distance. I doubt any Vietnamese could hate Chinese for such reason @Carlosa
I had my father, two uncles, one uncle in law against fought Chinese in the war 1979. So interesting when I never heard about the hatred toward Chinese from them. Yes, they maybe dont like Chinese, are careful with Chinese tricks on business but so strange, They dont hate them. You maybe dont believe but it is the true . Young Vietnamese said they hate Chinese. The major factor as my thinking is SCS because they only said that when Chinese waves the disputed SCS from 2008.
About the Sino Vietnam War, Because the Vietnamese and Chinese goverment agreed the solution in Chengdu 1991. Follow the issues, Chinese and Vietnamese tried to normalize ( dont remind incident on textbook, notebook, the propaganda, news..) and dont want to exacerbate the incident which broke the relation . Almost Vietnamese young didnt know this war until Chinese violated Vietnamese EEZ and increase their activities in South China Sea.

if we hate chinese by war i think we have more reasons to hate American than. , the relation between Vietnamese and American now thanks by the Chinese's support.

That's ok, I only know about the Vietnamese people of today and when I talked to them, most of them say they hate chinese and they give the reasons that I mentioned, so I was explaining that. Its better if there is less hate, that's for sure.

By generalizing most people hate each other you're promoting hate. Were you alive for a 1000 years and live in Vietnam and see this hate for a 1000 years. Most Vietnames I meet don't hate...a few bad apples but most people are incredibly generous and they have my love for the country. As for the Bit**ch, white trash who loves going to Vietnam thinking they are the sugar daddies, it's just fu*)king annoying. Like all the history books telling the world Christopher Columbus discovered America, Native were in America long before and nothing to discover. Genocide of Natives is written as forceful resettlement. I am just confused as to who's doing the hating and who has a simplistic view of the world.

Hey, aren't you the one that said: "I understand Vietnam needs to establish its own identity, but to build a nation on hate eventually will end very badly."

I guess that's not promoting hate according to what you said to me? Watch your own words before accusing others man.

And you also said: "tour guide constantly tell foreigner completely different translation of their history which is oddly enough all written in Chinese which they can't even read except by Viet translation instituted by the French I guess." You also said: "Vietnam is complicated, but much of its history is completely fabricated by the French and Americans"

So Vietnamese don't know their history, really? They only known their history from the French and of course they just followed whatever the French told them right? And Vietnamese are not capable of translating chinese right? When you say things like that, you show that you don't have a clue about Vietnam.

 

[sinait]

I can't say for sure since I haven't seen those specific historical records that you mentioned, but I think what you call chinese language is actually the old Vietnamese writing system, which is not Chinese, but actually Vietnamese, but it looks similar to chinese. The current writing system was imposed by the French, so its fairly recent.

The Vietnamese use Chinese characters with some localization, as is the case in Hong Kong. How can they not be influenced if they are a colony of China for 1000 years.

 

[Carlosa]

The Vietnamese use Chinese characters with some localization, as is the case in Hong Kong. How can they not be influenced if they are a colony of China for 1000 years.

Of course they were influenced by China and by far, but to say that they don't know their history or that they only know their history from French translations or that much of their history was fabricated by the French and Americans is totally wrong.

 

[sinait]

Yes VN needs more time. By the current trajectory, time will bring prosperity to the people. With prosperity comes better education, better behavior. There is a correlation between prosperity, education and bad behavior. It may sound arrogant when I say the 6 million Viet kieu are generally richer hence behave better than those at home.

You are right, but civic education is more important rather than academic education.
Singapore had its phase of being poor and dirty as well but never to the degree in India. And by the way, most of the filth are done by the Singapore Indians. They chew betel(not sure) and spit out a red substance everywhere. They drink cheap toddy(coconut alcohol) and urine where they find convenient. Its also horrific how they beat their wives with sticks after being drunk with toddy which the Government sell at special price to the Indians.

That's all in the past. It will take at least 30 to 40 years and most probably more to change habits. Most of the indiscriminate throwing of rubbish are done by rural folks adjusting to city life. About urinating, its similar in the Philippines, but cannot just blame the people when there are not enough public toilets. Singapore have clean and comfortable toilets everywhere, but still have isolated cases of open defecation because most probably they are in an emergency and couldn't locate the toilet in an unfamiliar place. Toilets are cleaner also due to less people smoking and clogging the urinals with cigarette butts.
Singapore also have the benefit of having an army of foreign labor cleaning after us, haha.
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[sinait]

Of course they were influenced by China and by far, but to say that they don't know their history or that they only know their history from French translations or that much of their history was fabricated by the French and Americans is totally wrong.

I am not surprised if a lot of their young only know their history from French translations as history is not being as emphasized as maths, science and language. Its nearly the same thing in Singapore where we learn that little history mostly from the British perspective. I study Electronics and Engineering Science in school instead of History and Geography because there is a perception that those are for the backward classes. On hindsight, it is not the best choice.
Our education is more like economic training. Most of us are preoccupied with studies, jobs and careers, and seldom spent time to delve deeper into our history until we have free time, usually after retirement and quite old.
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[AViet]

I am not surprised if a lot of their young only know their history from French translations as history is not being as emphasized as maths, science and language. Its nearly the same thing in Singapore where we learn that little history mostly from the British perspective. I study Electronics and Engineering Science in school instead of History and Geography because there is a perception that those are for the backward classes. On hindsight, it is not the best choice.
Our education is more like economic training. Most of us are preoccupied with studies, jobs and careers, and seldom spent time to delve deeper into our history until we have free time, usually after retirement and quite old.
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I do not understand what you mean by "French translation". Vietnamese history records tradition are far more advanced than France or any Western countries. We do not need to rely on France or any Western sources for our history.

The school textbooks for the period from ancient to before French colonization are basically based on the works of Tran Trong Kim (Viet Nam Su Luoc, or Brief History of Vietnam), which was again based on various Vietnamese and Chinese sources.

 

[ckf]

I am not surprised if a lot of their young only know their history from French translations as history is not being as emphasized as maths, science and language. Its nearly the same thing in Singapore where we learn that little history mostly from the British perspective. I study Electronics and Engineering Science in school instead of History and Geography because there is a perception that those are for the backward classes. On hindsight, it is not the best choice.
Our education is more like economic training. Most of us are preoccupied with studies, jobs and careers, and seldom spent time to delve deeper into our history until we have free time, usually after retirement and quite old.
.

Carlosa, if you are Viet and you argue with me about perspective of history, I will take it like a man and say it's my perspective and its harsh and judgemental. My argument is exactly what I wrote, Vietnamese today you talk to cannot read historical text and can only go by what their gov't translate for them. Based on what I hear, I hear a lot of hate which you seems vehemently like to argue for. Then let me ask you, how did Dalai Lama, a religious dictator win Nobel Peace Prize from the Danes. God, maybe Dalai should be given Spanish citizenship and see how you will like your new ruler. That's how the French crap on history of Vietnam which you honky wankers like to view hate between two civilizations based on your conversations apparently.

 

[TenLua]

Carlosa, if you are Viet and you argue with me about perspective of history, I will take it like a man and say it's my perspective and its harsh and judgemental. My argument is exactly what I wrote, Vietnamese today you talk to cannot read historical text and can only go by what their gov't translate for them. Based on what I hear, I hear a lot of hate which you seems vehemently like to argue for. Then let me ask you, how did Dalai Lama, a religious dictator win Nobel Peace Prize from the Danes. God, maybe Dalai should be given Spanish citizenship and see how you will like your new ruler. That's how the French crap on history of Vietnam which you honky wankers like to view hate between two civilizations based on your conversations apparently.

Any historical texts that are over 1k years old all need to be decipher by scholars. Wherever you're originally from, you too cannot read those historical texts. Canadian history, or more to the point, the portion of land that is now known as Canada have its own history and you cannot decipher its historical texts. It's like saying modern day Egyptians cannot decipher hieroglyphics so therefore their version of history is null and void.

Further, I doubt you know one Vietnamese person in real life. It is highly unlikely given your clear and obvious animosity against us.

Where are you from originally or are you too afraid to even reveal that?

 

[Carlosa]

Carlosa, if you are Viet and you argue with me about perspective of history, I will take it like a man and say it's my perspective and its harsh and judgemental. My argument is exactly what I wrote, Vietnamese today you talk to cannot read historical text and can only go by what their gov't translate for them. Based on what I hear, I hear a lot of hate which you seems vehemently like to argue for. Then let me ask you, how did Dalai Lama, a religious dictator win Nobel Peace Prize from the Danes. God, maybe Dalai should be given Spanish citizenship and see how you will like your new ruler. That's how the French crap on history of Vietnam which you honky wankers like to view hate between two civilizations based on your conversations apparently.

I'm not a Viet and there are many issues here that would be much better answered by the Viet members, but as living in Vietnam I know a few things and to pretend to deny that lots of Viet people don't like / hate chinese only shows a shallow understanding of Vietnam.

Its very unusual to talk with a Viet, the subject of China comes out and not immediately hear them say "I don't like or hate china / chinese, chinese are very bad", etc, etc. You are probably ethnic chinese so Viet people avoid saying those things to your face, but they tell me that all the time. And to portray me as promoter of hate just because I explained why Viets hate chinese, even that I didn't say anything that promotes that hate also tells me that you are an ethnic chinese that is very sensitive about discrimination probably because of your own experience in Canada where for many people, whether you have a Canadian passport or not, they still see you as a chinese. I've seen lots of people like you when living in USA, always crying discrimination, bigotry, etc at the slightest sign of anything that remotely hurts their sense of identity. Hypersensitive to say the least.

I also know enough about Vietnamese to know that they know their history and would not fall for French fabrications, are you forgetting that they expelled the French and the colonial period was nothing but a blimp in their history.

 

[ckf]

Any historical texts that are over 1k years old all need to be decipher by scholars. Wherever you're originally from, you too cannot read those historical texts. Canadian history, or more to the point, the portion of land that is now known as Canada have its own history and you cannot decipher its historical texts. It's like saying modern day Egyptians cannot decipher hieroglyphics so therefore their version of history is null and void.

Further, I doubt you know one Vietnamese person in real life. It is highly unlikely given your clear and obvious animosity against us.

Where are you from originally or are you too afraid to even reveal that?

You really need to hit the books, being ignorant is no excuse. Now go have some pho, and peace.

 

[Carlosa]

The Vietnamese use Chinese characters with some localization, as is the case in Hong Kong. How can they not be influenced if they are a colony of China for 1000 years.

Viet members can say better but I think is not that simple, this is what I read:

"Sometime during the 10th century the Vietnamese adapted the Chinese script to write their own language and called their script 'Chữ-nôm' (southern script). The earliest known example of writing in the Chữ-nôm script, an inscription on a stele at the Bao An Pagoda in Yen Lang, Vinh Phu province, dates from 1209 AD (Ly Dynasty). It was during the Tarn Dynasty (late 13th century) that the script was systematized and started to be used in literature."

Notable features

• Chữ-nôm uses a mixture of standard Chinese characters and new characters invented specifically for writing Vietnamese.
• When adapting the Chinese characters, the inventors of Chữ-nôm borrowed many Chinese words and adapted that pronunciations to Vietnamese phonology. As a result of this borrowing, there are often two words for the same thing - a Sino-Vietnamese one and the original Vietnamese one, as can be seen below.
• The new characters combine a character which gives the meaning and another which hints at the Vietnamese pronunciation.

 

[sinait]

You really need to hit the books, being ignorant is no excuse. I minor in Canadian history, so you shouldn't go there. I live in two cities with a lot of Cantonese speaking Viets and my favorite Vietnamese dish is Banh canh ca loc in Danang. My mom side has Chinese "Nguyen" which in Vietnam is quite different since its amalgamation of different families with Chinese ties. I mainly hangout with Cantonese speaking viets, so I am biased I guess. This is my last post here because this wasn't what I wanted to represent and everybody is taking this out of context.

I was a bit surprised also when I first hear Vietnamese here in Singapore speak Cantonese.
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[xiao qi]

I was a bit surprised also when I first hear Vietnamese here in Singapore speak Cantonese.
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They are maybe Chinese - Vietnamese, Vietnamese origin people dont understand Chinese language except they were educated

Viet members can say better but I think is not that simple, this is what I read:

"Sometime during the 10th century the Vietnamese adapted the Chinese script to write their own language and called their script 'Chữ-nôm' (southern script). The earliest known example of writing in the Chữ-nôm script, an inscription on a stele at the Bao An Pagoda in Yen Lang, Vinh Phu province, dates from 1209 AD (Ly Dynasty). It was during the Tarn Dynasty (late 13th century) that the script was systematized and started to be used in literature."

Notable features

• Chữ-nôm uses a mixture of standard Chinese characters and new characters invented specifically for writing Vietnamese.
• When adapting the Chinese characters, the inventors of Chữ-nôm borrowed many Chinese words and adapted that pronunciations to Vietnamese phonology. As a result of this borrowing, there are often two words for the same thing - a Sino-Vietnamese one and the original Vietnamese one, as can be seen below.
• The new characters combine a character which gives the meaning and another which hints at the Vietnamese pronunciation.

Right, Chu Nom is same as Japanese language. Chinese now, Im not sure they can understand it fully when they read chu nom

 

[sinait]

Viet members can say better but I think is not that simple, this is what I read:

"Sometime during the 10th century the Vietnamese adapted the Chinese script to write their own language and called their script 'Chữ-nôm' (southern script). The earliest known example of writing in the Chữ-nôm script, an inscription on a stele at the Bao An Pagoda in Yen Lang, Vinh Phu province, dates from 1209 AD (Ly Dynasty). It was during the Tarn Dynasty (late 13th century) that the script was systematized and started to be used in literature."

Notable features

• Chữ-nôm uses a mixture of standard Chinese characters and new characters invented specifically for writing Vietnamese.
• When adapting the Chinese characters, the inventors of Chữ-nôm borrowed many Chinese words and adapted that pronunciations to Vietnamese phonology. As a result of this borrowing, there are often two words for the same thing - a Sino-Vietnamese one and the original Vietnamese one, as can be seen below.
• The new characters combine a character which gives the meaning and another which hints at the Vietnamese pronunciation.

I agree, you should just leave it to Viet members.
It all started from Chinese characters with some localization later on. Similarly there are Chinese words that are only used in Hong Kong and Taiwan. In Chinese, it is allowed to add or subtract a radical from a character or combine characters to form a new character word. That is why some Chinese word processors have a character composition feature to compose characters not found in Unicode. For example, they may want to add "water", "wood" or "fire" to an existing character.
I think we better leave this to the experts.
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[Carlosa]

I was a bit surprised also when I first hear Vietnamese here in Singapore speak Cantonese.
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As I understand, many Vietnamese of chinese origin were living in Vietnam and after the 1979 war, many were expelled from Vietnam. Typical Vietnamese would not be speaking cantonese unless they are of chinese origin.