Vietnam Defence Forum

[Aqsuperman]

Kh-31P anti-radiation missile with something like a harness.............

 

[vtnsx]

Kh-31P anti-radiation missile with something like a harness.............

 

[Nike]

@yugocrosrb95 Did I insulting you with my post? Why assuming people are incompetent when you don't have any military experience? Do you know me? your variant 5.56 may penetrate deeper but 7.62 still have a much larger exit hole and can still take an arm or leg out instead of just go through it like the 5.56 variant or not. You ask questions and people reply, but when you don't like the answers you start to insulting people. You are a typical guy acting tough and vulgar hiding behind a computer screen ,.... From now on, I will stop reading and reply your posts because a lot of stuffs you write doesn't make sense and you can't communicate with people without insulting them.

it's all depends on what kind types military cartridge of 5.56 munition you used the same can be said with the 7.62 mm Soviet or NATO caliber.

The examples
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M193: 5.56×45mm 55-grain [3.56 g] ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M195 [Crimped tip with Red lacquer seal]: 5.56×45mm high-pressure grenade-launching blank.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M196 [Red or Orange tip]: 5.56×45mm 54-grain [3.43 g] tracer cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, High Pressure Test (HPT), M197 [Crimped tip with stannic-stained or nickel-plated case]: High-pressure Testing Blank used when proofing weapons during manufacture, test, or repair. Warning: do not use as a training blank or grenade-launching blank.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Dummy, M199 [No primer, Fluted case]: 5.56×45mm inert cartridge with fluted indentations in the case. Used for loading and unloading drills during basic training.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Blank, M200 [Crimped tip with Violet lacquer seal]: 5.56×45mm training blank cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M202: 5.56×45mm 58-grain FN SSX822 cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Dummy, M232 [No primer, Black-anodized case and bullet]: 5.56×45mm inert cartridge. Used for testing rifle mechanisms.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM287: 5.56×45mm 68-grain ball cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM779.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM288: 5.56×45mm 68-grain tracer cartridge produced by Industries Valcartier, Inc. An Improved version was also produced designated XM780.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Grenade, M755 [Crimped tip with Yellow lacquer seal]: 5.56×45mm grenade launching blank specifically for the 64mm M234 launcher. The original white lacquer seal was discontinued due to excessive bore fouling.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, XM777: 5.56×45mm ball cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM778: 5.56×45mm tracer cartridge.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 [Green tip]: 5.56×45mm 62-grain FN SS109-equivalent ball cartridge with a steel penetrator tip over a lead core in a partial copper jacket (the steel tip sticks out of the front of the bullet and is uncovered by the jacket).
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855 Lead Free [Green tip]: 62-grain bullet with a steel penetrator tip over a tungsten-composite core in a partial copper jacket. Primarily used during training in countries with strict lead disposal laws.[67]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round [unpainted steel penetrator tip]: 62-grain bullet w/ a 19-grain steel penetrator tip over a copper alloy core in a partial copper jacket.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M856 [Orange tip]: 5.56×45mm 63.7-grain FN L110 tracer cartridge. Provides red visible light and lacks a steel penetrator.[67]
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, M856A1 [Red tip]: 5.56×45mm 56-grain Lead Free slug (LF) Tracer with similar ballistic performance to the M855A1 and improved trace to range consistency.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Plastic, Practice, M862 [Brass primer, Aluminum case and Blue plastic projectile]: Short Range Training Ammo (SRTA) has a smaller charge than standard ball, reducing its aimed range to 250 meters, and fires a plastic bullet. The M2 training bolt must be used in the M16 Rifle / M4 Carbine when using SRTA for the weapon to cycle properly due to its lower power. It is used during training on shooting ranges near built-up or populated areas.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Armor Piercing, M995 [Black tip]: 5.56×45mm 52-grain AP cartridge with a tungsten core.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Tracer, XM996 [Crimson tip]: So-called "Dim Tracer" with reduced effect primarily for use with night vision devices.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.64 mm, Ball, MLU-26/P (National Stock Number:1305-968-5892): Munition, Live, Unit #26 / Personnel use. Early USAF designation for a 55-grain 5.56×45mm FMJ ball cartridge produced by Remington-Union Metallic Cartridge Company (headstamp RA 63 or REM-UMC 63) in 1963. It was their designation for the commercial 55-grain Remington .223 M.C. ("Metallic-Cased", or Full Metal Jacketed) cartridge, which the Air Force initially designated "5.64 mm" rather than 5.56 mm. The order consisted of 8.5 million rounds and was procured for testing, training and unconventional warfare use with the XM16 rifle. The cartridges came packed unclipped in white 20-round commercial boxes.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Frangible, MK 255 Mod 0 [White Tip]: 5.56×45mm 62-grain Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (RRLP) round with copper/polymer composite core for training and operational use.
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Special Ball, Long Range, Mk 262 Mod 0/1: 5.56×45mm 77-grain Open-Tipped Match/Hollow-Point Boat-Tail cartridge. Mod 0 features Sierra Matchking bullet, while Mod 1 features either Nosler or Sierra bullet.
Cartridge, 5.56×45mm, semi-jacketed Frangible, MK 311 Mod 0 : Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (R2LP) round, 50-grain frangible bullet intended for training. Produced by Western Cartridge Company (headstamp: WCC).
Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm Ball, Enhanced 5.56 mm Carbine, MK318 MOD 0: 5.56×45mm 62-grain Open-Tipped Match Boat-Tail cartridge. Optimized for use with 14-inch barreled weapons like the M4A1 Carbine and MK16 SCAR and designed to penetrate light barriers like windshields or car doors with no loss of accuracy or damage.Now designated as Caliber 5.56 mm Ball, Carbine, Barrier.

 

[Carlosa]

@yugocrosrb95 Did I insulting you with my post? Why assuming people are incompetent when you don't have any military experience? Do you know me? your variant 5.56 may penetrate deeper but 7.62 still have a much larger exit hole and can still take an arm or leg out instead of just go through it like the 5.56 variant or not. You ask questions and people reply, but when you don't like the answers you start to insulting people. You are a typical guy acting tough and vulgar hiding behind a computer screen ,.... From now on, I will stop reading and reply your posts because a lot of stuffs you write doesn't make sense and you can't communicate with people without insulting them.

Whatever improvements get done to a 5.56 ammo, can also be done to the 7.62 ammo and the difference will persist, its just a matter of physics. Size does make a difference in range and penetration power not matter what.

This guy has an attitude problem, he doesn't seem to be able to talk to people without insulting. 20 years old, probably the type of aggressive kid that bullies everybody in the neighborhood.

@Viet etc, I suggest that everybody ignores this guy, don't talk to him, we don't need this in the thread.
If we ignore him, he'll eventually get frustrated by not getting attention and will go away. Report him also.

 

[Viet]

According to Western media, China has installed HQ-9 SAM on the Paracel Island.

Beijing's missile move in South China Sea could make US think twice about getting too close | World news | The Guardian

I wonder if Vietnam could do the same on one of its Spratly Islands.

you can safely assume we have missiles against enemy aircraft and warships on our islands.

with radar installations on along Vietnam coast monitoring all activities in the sea and fighter aircraft ready night and day to counter any potential chinese aggression.

 

[Viet]

Japan’s maritime force conducts joint drills with Vietnam’s navy in South China Sea base | South China Morning Post

PUBLISHED : Thursday, 18 February, 2016, 5:16pm

An MSDF team was dispatched to Danang, central Vietnam, along with two P-3C patrol aircraft for the drills with Vietnam. Photo: Kyodo

The Japanese Maritime Self-Defence Force conducted joint exercises with the Vietnamese navy for three days through Thursday in the Southeast Asian country and nearby waters.

An MSDF team was dispatched to Danang, central Vietnam, along with two P-3C patrol aircraft for the drills aimed at reinforcing defence cooperation between the two countries and keeping a check on China amid territorial disputes in the South China Sea.

Vietnam, one of several states involved in disputes over reefs and islands in the waters, are at odds with China over claims to the Paracel and Spratly island groups.

Just this week, China’s deployment of an advanced surface-to-air missile system on one of the Paracel Islands came to light.

Last November, Japanese Defence Minister Gen Nakatani and his Vietnamese counterpart Phung Quang Thanh agreed during talks in Hanoi that an MSDF vessel will make a port call at Cam Ranh Bay, a strategic Vietnamese naval base in the South China Sea.

They also agreed to conduct joint defence drills to train for humanitarian support and disaster relief activities with an eye on the situation in the South China Sea.

Wednesday’s map exercise at a Vietnamese navy facility in Danang was conducted based on a scenario that the P-3C planes and Vietnam’s naval vessels would rescue a civilian ship in distress.

The MSDF’s P-3C aircraft previously visited Vietnam in May last year.

 

[Thao Nguyen]

Israel is currently showcasing their military hard-wares at an exhibit in Singapore.

Globes English - Israel's defense exports fall but not steeply

Some of the toys such as such "Iron Dome interceptors" for ships should invite VPA 's interest.

Since Vietnam is proficient at producing ammunition, one wonder if it could compete with the like of IMI on a global scale and export small caliber ammo such 5.56 mm.

Globes English - IMI wins Spanish ammunition deal

Personally
Iron dome : No
Barak 1 &8 for ship: yes
Spyder & python for Land : off course yes

 

[jhungary]

Why VPA would change for 5.56 when they already have +millions weapons using 7.62, huge ammo stocks and production facilities? It a huge army of 450 000 here, not some small army of 10-20 000 troop. As myself a user of 5.56mm, yes it's very precise and light to carry but it still lack the punch of 7.62 in close quarter combat. I want to see a guy falling down after taking a shot of 7.62 rather than see a guy still walking after a couple 5.56. People fall in love with the firepower and destruction of 7.62. And a few extra kilos weight of 7.62 ammo is not something the infantrymen would complaint much.The replacement Galil Ace 31 and Ace 32 are all 7.62mm. VPA still use the AR15 with the 5.56 mm.

As an infantryman myself, I complaint when I put on an extra pair of socks. It may seems strange to you but in battle, a few extra kilo is what make the different, you can have 9 out of 10 times having no problem putting on an extra 3 kilo, either with a few more frags or a few more mag. But that one time you are uncomfortable with the load is the one that you will regret, and may even be killed over it.

Loading factor is a soldier's priority, I don't generally overload my soldiers, unless I am absolutely need to overload them. Having 300 rounds instead of 200 rounds also make quite a different in battle. When you put stress, adrenaline, and excitement into the equation, expending all 200 rounds is just like a skip in time....

7.62 have their advantage, while the 556 have their own, beside, it's seriously advised against using any sort of rifle in Close quarter anyway..........

 

[Mokaman]

As an infantryman myself, I complaint when I put on an extra pair of socks. It may seems strange to you but in battle, a few extra kilo is what make the different, you can have 9 out of 10 times having no problem putting on an extra 3 kilo, either with a few more frags or a few more mag. But that one time you are uncomfortable with the load is the one that you will regret, and may even be killed over it.

Loading factor is a soldier's priority, I don't generally overload my soldiers, unless I am absolutely need to overload them. Having 300 rounds instead of 200 rounds also make quite a different in battle. When you put stress, adrenaline, and excitement into the equation, expending all 200 rounds is just like a skip in time....

7.62 have their advantage, while the 556 have their own, beside, it's seriously advised against using any sort of rifle in Close quarter anyway..........

Of course weight is important but it also depend on the length of your mission( long or short) and the purpose of your mission (recon, patrol, ambush, attack...). If your mission is just to engage and firefight, then you just pack for that purpose. That's why I said that extra kilos of ammo won't mind anybody. And if that extra pair of socks help you in the winter warfare then take it, anything else that is not necessary can be spare for extra ammo. My definition of close quarter combat is everything that is close combat firefight, urban warfare (you get my point...)... 7.62 is doing great in those chaotic scenarios. The SCAR MK 17 CQC (CLOSE QUARTER COMBAT) 7.62 X 51 mm is doing great and is battle proven in close quarter combat.

Whatever improvements get done to a 5.56 ammo, can also be done to the 7.62 ammo and the difference will persist, its just a matter of physics. Size does make a difference in range and penetration power not matter what.

This guy has an attitude problem, he doesn't seem to be able to talk to people without insulting. 20 years old, probably the type of aggressive kid that bullies everybody in the neighborhood.

@Viet etc, I suggest that everybody ignores this guy, don't talk to him, we don't need this in the thread.
If we ignore him, he'll eventually get frustrated by not getting attention and will go away. Report him also.

The dilemna of 5.56 versus 7.62 started since the Viet Nam war, when the Americans change their M14 for the M16 and accounts of firefights with NVA armed with AKs. Both ammo are good but they are good for different reasons. M14 is still being use today in the US army

 

[jhungary]

Of course weight is important but it also depend on the length of your mission( long or short) and the purpose of your mission (recon, patrol, ambush, attack...). If your mission is just to engage and firefight, then you just pack for that purpose. That's why I said that extra kilos of ammo won't mind anybody. And if that extra pair of socks help you in the winter warfare then take it, anything else that is not necessary can be spare for extra ammo. My definition of close quarter combat is everything that is close combat firefight, urban warfare (you get my point...)... 7.62 is doing great in those chaotic scenarios. The SCAR MK 17 CQC (CLOSE QUARTER COMBAT) 7.62 X 51 mm is doing great and is battle proven in close quarter combat.View attachment 294463

It's actually not that.

It may seems strange to you, but in today's war, you don't actually go on a mission and expect firefights. War and battle today is a lot more complicated than say Vietnam war era. Where you have well define mission such as Search and Destroy, Night Ambushes, Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol or Just Combat Sweep. Today warfare is what you basically expect to carry all these mission at once, and have your team readied for any sort of deployment. You have to equally prepared to perform an Air Assault or a Ground Patrol because battlefield changes quickly, and they may need you to do one thing this second, another thing next. It happens A LOT in the military.

Problem with mission specific load-out is basically an out of date concept. You cannot think "Yeah, I am expecting a firefight, so I max out on ammo and you don't bring food, water, medical supplies." The problem is actually not weight (Although they do present a problem) but what you can carry with you in the battlefield. You can only carry a rug sack as well a load bearing vest that pretty much all you can get in between them. You need your NVG, your repel rope, your flex ties, your Medikit as much as you need ammo. And in the end, it's that few kilogram here and there would actually make the ultimate different. It's about the time when you get into an unexpected situation. I remember once I have to choose between a notepad and pen and a few grenade (That was 2003, there are no smartphone yet), and I choose the latter, ended up remembering all important detail on my patrol with my own memory during debriefing.

It's quite easy for you to say here, and you may not actually understand me. But this is quite the universal truth when you deal with combat today. You may think what's a few kilogram can do? I mean think about this, if you are in a desert, 115 degree heats. The 2 or 3 kilograms translate to more water intake, meaning you have to bring more water, and thus increase your load once again. Which translate to decrease in combat performance.

You may say this, what's the point when we are gonna be all in a Humvee anyway......But the sad fact is, you cannot spend your whole war in a Humvee. I tried, that's not working like that.

About SCAR 17, the CQC version is not developed for CQC specifically, but rather you can use it in a CQC environment as well. It's sort of a happy medium.

Problem with CQC, which mean you have to have a little bit of everything, unlike ranged and open war such as jungle warfare, desert warfare or artic warfare. You need to have the little bit of all of them in a CQC situation.

762 are good round for penetration, maximum damage power, 5.56 is more accurate and give you more sustainability. While 9mm weapon usually have a shorter barrel which give you manoeuvrability as well as close grouping. In a perfect world, you would want a Shotgun to blast the door, a MP5 to turn the corner, a 5.56 for marksman type clear line shot. and 7.62 for damage. But in reality, you can't bring a M3, MP-5, HK416/M4 and a SCAR 17 all of them to combat. That's too heavy. So you would need to have a happy medium, for that, long story short, SCAR17 would be the pick of the day.

The dilemna of 5.56 versus 7.62 started since the Viet Nam war, when the Americans change their M14 for the M16 and accounts of firefights with NVA armed with AKs. Both ammo are good but they are good for different reasons. M14 is still being use today in the US army

To be fair, the competition between M16 and M14 does not quite actually stemmed from the physical properties of the round, rather, it was created because the physical properties of M14 and M16 rifle themselves.

Many people unjustly compare M14 to M16, in fact, doing so would be like comparing BAR to M1 Garand. The Army was basically wrong on being too greedy to have a BAR like automatic rifle on every infantryman hand to begin with. It basically spraying bullet all over the place. M14 was not intended to be used the same way M16 does (Which is for refined aimed and accurate shot). If I have to compare to today weapon, I would say M14 would more like a M249 Minimi today. Not quite the 240Bravo (or M60 back in the days) but not too quite well defined as M4 (or XM16E1 back in the days)

M14 itself and the round were not inferior, just the army stuffed up and basically killed the weapon. It would basically the same as in WW2. We have Garand as standard infantry Rifle, BAR as squad automatic rifle, and M1919 as LMG. During Vietnam, we have M16 as standard infantry rifle, M14 as Squad Automatic Rifle, and M60 as LMG. Today, we have M4 as standard infantry rifle, Minimi as Squad Automatic Rifle, and M240B as LMG.

 

[Mokaman]

It's actually not that.

It may seems strange to you, but in today's war, you don't actually go on a mission and expect firefights. War and battle today is a lot more complicated than say Vietnam war era. Where you have well define mission such as Search and Destroy, Night Ambushes, Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol or Just Combat Sweep. Today warfare is what you basically expect to carry all these mission at once, and have your team readied for any sort of deployment. You have to equally prepared to perform an Air Assault or a Ground Patrol because battlefield changes quickly, and they may need you to do one thing this second, another thing next. It happens A LOT in the military.

Problem with mission specific load-out is basically an out of date concept. You cannot think "Yeah, I am expecting a firefight, so I max out on ammo and you don't bring food, water, medical supplies." The problem is actually not weight (Although they do present a problem) but what you can carry with you in the battlefield. You can only carry a rug sack as well a load bearing vest that pretty much all you can get in between them. You need your NVG, your repel rope, your flex ties, your Medikit as much as you need ammo. And in the end, it's that few kilogram here and there would actually make the ultimate different. It's about the time when you get into an unexpected situation. I remember once I have to choose between a notepad and pen and a few grenade (That was 2003, there are no smartphone yet), and I choose the latter, ended up remembering all important detail on my patrol with my own memory during debriefing.

It's quite easy for you to say here, and you may not actually understand me. But this is quite the universal truth when you deal with combat today. You may think what's a few kilogram can do? I mean think about this, if you are in a desert, 115 degree heats. The 2 or 3 kilograms translate to more water intake, meaning you have to bring more water, and thus increase your load once again. Which translate to decrease in combat performance.

You may say this, what's the point when we are gonna be all in a Humvee anyway......But the sad fact is, you cannot spend your whole war in a Humvee. I tried, that's not working like that.

About SCAR 17, the CQC version is not developed for CQC specifically, but rather you can use it in a CQC environment as well. It's sort of a happy medium.

Problem with CQC, which mean you have to have a little bit of everything, unlike ranged and open war such as jungle warfare, desert warfare or artic warfare. You need to have the little bit of all of them in a CQC situation.

762 are good round for penetration, maximum damage power, 5.56 is more accurate and give you more sustainability. While 9mm weapon usually have a shorter barrel which give you manoeuvrability as well as close grouping. In a perfect world, you would want a Shotgun to blast the door, a MP5 to turn the corner, a 5.56 for marksman type clear line shot. and 7.62 for damage. But in reality, you can't bring a M3, MP-5, HK416/M4 and a SCAR 17 all of them to combat. That's too heavy. So you would need to have a happy medium, for that, long story short, SCAR17 would be the pick of the day.



To be fair, the competition between M16 and M14 does not quite actually stemmed from the physical properties of the round, rather, it was created because the physical properties of M14 and M16 rifle themselves.

Many people unjustly compare M14 to M16, in fact, doing so would be like comparing BAR to M1 Garand. The Army was basically wrong on being too greedy to have a BAR like automatic rifle on every infantryman hand to begin with. It basically spraying bullet all over the place. M14 was not intended to be used the same way M16 does (Which is for refined aimed and accurate shot). If I have to compare to today weapon, I would say M14 would more like a M249 Minimi today. Not quite the 240Bravo (or M60 back in the days) but not too quite well defined as M4 (or XM16E1 back in the days)

M14 itself and the round were not inferior, just the army stuffed up and basically killed the weapon. It would basically the same as in WW2. We have Garand as standard infantry Rifle, BAR as squad automatic rifle, and M1919 as LMG. During Vietnam, we have M16 as standard infantry rifle, M14 as Squad Automatic Rifle, and M60 as LMG. Today, we have M4 as standard infantry rifle, Minimi as Squad Automatic Rifle, and M240B as LMG.

It true the today battlefields and type of wars have changed but the tactics and preparations for combat remain the same. All armies in the world have their way to operate and use the resources they have, and some armies are better than others but there is no universal standard for preparation and operations . What you think is good for you may be not so good for others and what you have may not apply for others. Wealthy armies always have the dilemma to cut down stuffs to bring on missions but it's not the case for less equipped armies. I appreciate you give the insight of your side on preparation for operation. But for myself and the procedures & briefing, it all come down to how long the mission...Are We go with heavy backpack or just webbing & pouches and what the purposes.

 

[Viet]

bros, how about stop for a second speculating what bullet cabibre creates a bigger hole on human body...
and greet the arrival of the fleet. the race around the world.

arrival in the city of da-nang.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

@yugocrosrb95 Did I insulting you with my post?

Yes with your ignorance and bias.

Why assuming people are incompetent when you don't have any military experience?

I can operate a T-54/T-55 and T-72/M-84's due to manuals for those tanks, I only lack hands on experience.

Do you know me?

As you present yourself on this forum, yes.

your variant 5.56 may penetrate deeper but 7.62 still have a much larger exit hole and can still take an arm or leg out instead of just go through it like the 5.56 variant or not.

7.62x39 is bigger and creates a bigger hole, but it goes through body like hot knife through butter as it retains most of its kinetic energy rather than transfering it to the target while compared to 5.56x45 which transfers nearly all kinetic energy when going through body which results in higher internal damage with higher chance of critical damage to organs..

As you can see in these two videos, 5.56x45 M855A1 penetrates a Level 3+ body armor at full barrel lenght of M16 while 7.62x39 doesn't penetrate inferior Level 3 body armor at full barrel lenght of AK-47/AKM.

You ask questions and people reply, but when you don't like the answers you start to insulting people.

I hate/don't like answers filled with excuses and ignorance.

You are a typical guy acting tough and vulgar hiding behind a computer screen ,....

You're delusional about me.

 

[Viet]

Yugo, I suggest you stay on topic and avoid spewing unhealthy words whenever possible.

 

[Barmaley]

Today two Su-30MK2 were delivered to Vietnam. The numbers 88520 and 88521.
That's means, the Vietnamese air force operating 36 Su-30MK2 fighter jets already.