Used F16's - EDA 50 ~ 100 Available

[Khafee]

Hi,

The issue that I have with the younger generation and those in the 40's as well---they are all full of excuses---.

They are so stupid----it is beyond comprehension---only a pakistani young kid could be so when it comes to the defence of pakistan.

During the afghan war---an AK47 sold in peshawar for Rs75-100000----. A Toyota pickup truck cost Rs103000---.

One of my distant relatives had the toyota agency and had the business of selling toyota trucks to the taliban during the afghan russian war---.

The U S dollar was around Rs10 to a dollar then---and people bought those AK's---and my relative was ordering those trucks in batches of 400 to 700 a batch---he had the market dominated---.

I just learnt some of the business information on my recent trip---but I knew the cost of the AK47---because Nazim-a-jamiaat Karachi univ Saifuddin went to bara to buy some after Salamullah Tipu shot Hafiz Aslam at KU admin bldng---Saifuddin paid Rs84000 each and bought two---got discount being a Jamati---that was in 1979-80---around that time.

And in mid 80's---the villages in interior sindh were paying the upward of Rs80-100K per AK47 to protect themselves from highway robbers---.

People paid $8-10000 per AK47 to protect their lands and families against rogue elements in the 80's---whereas the true market value of the AK47 was around $250 at that time or maybe $150---.

People were paying close to 500 times the real price of an AK47.

And these S---s come here and tell me that the price of the mirage 2000-5 was too outrageous---.

Very well said!

We paid more for the Blk60 and the M2K-9 - For this very reason.

There are no freebies in life, but some people are blinded by their egos, and are incapable of understanding this.

Those who come in need is friends indeed. No matter how elegant F16 is, only J10 will come to PAF 's rescue in real war.

No Doubting that!

Mastan, what you regret is not PAF doesn't induct J10b. It is PAF not choose to joint venture with China in J10 development, cause it has more room for updating(bigger fuselage and nose). PAF was determined to run its domestic fighter jet project since year 2008, so maybe J10 never stand a chance in the first beginning. And very sarcastic news is that FC20 might go to Bangladesh, I never image the first customer is not Pakistan. Period!

China selling anything cutting edge to Bangladesh, will be like handing it on a silver platter to India.

 

[Khafee]

And these S---s come here and tell me that the price of the mirage 2000-5 was too outrageous---.

When someone says "price too outrageous," in comparison to what? They need to explain themselves, which is more affordable: cutting edge tech, OR the enemy raping your sister / mother / daughter/ wife?

 

[帅的一匹]

Very well said!

We paid more for the Blk60 and the M2K-9 - For this very reason.

There are no freebies in life, but some people are blinded by their egos, and are incapable of understanding this.



No Doubting that!



China selling anything cutting edge to Bangladesh, will be like handing it on a silver platter to India.

I understand your concern.

 

[Khafee]

I understand your concern.

Thank You. I sincerely hope, your decision makers do too.

 

[volatile]

I understand your concern.

perhaps till today China dont use military exports as tool of foreign policy as we all understand China is more recently started to show its muscle and i hope in coming time military exports will be linked to foreign policies

 

[SQ8]

When someone says "price too outrageous," in comparison to what? They need to explain themselves, which is more affordable: cutting edge tech, OR the enemy raping your sister / mother / daughter/ wife?

Apples or oranges the deal for the M2k for UAE and that for the PAF. Abu Dhabi was overflowing with oil and paid the exact price but with the usual Bakhsheesh thrown in. Pakistan also had massive kickbacks built in but thankfully certain officers stood their ground.The same did not occur for the Navy's agosta deal and pockets were lined heavily-

The rest is just ranting by certain members who need attention rather than a need to provide actual facts and figures.
The dynamics of a shiekhdom where his highness is the final say no matter what are different to those in Pakistan.

As an e.g
The RSAF was recommended NOT to purchase the lightening by the PAF but went and brought it anyway- thanks to bakhsheesh.

 

[Bratva]

PAF is very satisfied with Chinese EW package...

If PAF was satisfied, they would not have gone for Spanish EW package for Block-2 JF-17

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan old man,

When all is said and done... it is back to drawing board for your good PAF.

When there is only corruption and stolen future all around... let these young ones have moments of escape... people need something to believe in, something to be prooud of...allow them their moments of joyous abandon. Reality is a bitch!

It is not really about the fighter now.. at this stage it is all about the engine.
@wanglaokan with W-series maturing nicely...the only route left for PAC/PAF is China.

IF/When Turks can manufacture their domestic version of Western engine.. will be seen then.

Mr. Musharraf had a good rabbit in hat by going 50/50 between East/West... rabbit got crushed...rest is history.

CAC is working on stealth single engine for some time now...and your PAC/PAF guys are there to learn as well. Hence, we hear all the right sound bites about off-shelf and local 5th Gen fighters...coming like clockwork from PAF topbrass.


Engines, engines... you would be needing at least 1000 engines. Yes, you read it correctly. Only for PAF.. excluding exports... China needs to up the production lines... even they would be needing 1000s of Ws... so yes, on the surface progress appears slow...


JF was sabotaged by your political class more than your 'professional' class. Credit must be given where it is due... fairness.

Anyhow, evolution of this great little bird will continue for at least coming 3 decades... JF is what Mig21 was. This bird is going to fly far and wide..needs only time...

Regarding J10s.... only in case of national threat by indians... two Sqd will be made available... PAF will keep squeezing the '16 lemons for decade plus however.

So it all leaves us with J31 and its morphing into local 5th Gen fighter....

For now PAC must only focus on JF and move to its directed evolution.

PAC/PAF is intimately involved with certain developments in China and this cooperation will bear fruits. Win-Win Sino-Pak Style.

J10C/D will only come when there is threat of indian agression. Your pilots are familiar with the birds... so no worries there!!!!

Hi,

It is INDEED all about the engine---the heart and soul---the power plant---.

Here is my issue with the Paf---their comment---" J10 does not bring anything new to the table "---.

My question is---what does extra F16's bring to the table---or more JF17's bring to the table---nothing new---same level of performance---but now on a wider scale.

What would the J10 bring to the table---same level of performance as of the F16---but at a larger scale.

Supposedly---if you have 77 Caterpillar excavators---and you add 123 Komatsu excavators of similar capabilities to the inventory---and Pakistan air force is telling these young pakistanis that the DIGGING power of the extra 123 Komatsus will not be of any substance---.

Amongst many things that shocks me is the utter stupidity in understanding the core problem---the SHORTAGE IN NUMBERS----.

These young men don't even know when to use that term---and under what circumstances---.

They have a hole to fill in for 200 odd aircraft that are DEATH TRAPS---to bring the capabilities of all these aircraft to the same level first.

Paf has sabotaged the integrity of pakistan multiple times in thepast and has not changed yet.

Modern aircraft---you need to have them in your inventory---flying your flag.

China can promise me as much---and I don't doubt their promise---but the enemy is also working on it---it will create a scenario and diversion---that when the aircraft are needed the most in pakistan---the diversion would create and scenario in china where it may not be possible to do so.

Very well said!

We paid more for the Blk60 and the M2K-9 - For this very reason.

There are no freebies in life, but some people are blinded by their egos, and are incapable of understanding this.

China selling anything cutting edge to Bangladesh, will be like handing it on a silver platter to India.

Hi,

For that reason---I am against selling any J10's or JF17's to Bangladesh---no reason at all---.

 

[Khafee]

Apples or oranges the deal for the M2k for UAE and that for the PAF. Abu Dhabi was overflowing with oil and paid the exact price but with the usual Bakhsheesh thrown in. Pakistan also had massive kickbacks built in but thankfully certain officers stood their ground.The same did not occur for the Navy's agosta deal and pockets were lined heavily-

The rest is just ranting by certain members who need attention rather than a need to provide actual facts and figures.
The dynamics of a shiekhdom where his highness is the final say no matter what are different to those in Pakistan.

As an e.g
The RSAF was recommended NOT to purchase the lightening by the PAF but went and brought it anyway- thanks to bakhsheesh.

There was no Bhakhsheesh thrown in - Proof is in eating the pudding, it was well worth it. Today the world is seeing that the prices paid was absolutely justified, considering the tech we got, when we got it, and what we got with it. Today the IAF is upgrading theirs to the -9 standards, for US$+/-40m per a/c. So Original Price + US$40m = ?
So who paid less?

"The Mirage 2000-9 programme provided the UAE AF & AD with invaluable experience and allowed the UAE to establish in-country software development, weapon integration, test and evaluation capabilities."
http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/one-careful-owner-why-mirage-sale-might-be-no-illusion.html

The UAE's procurement strategy and policy, has been crystal clear from day one, and has never face any scandals. Yes it's true that ultimately it is the SC, or DSC, who decides what has to be purchased, but that is backed by proper studies, trials, recommendations, and terms & conditions. You equating us with the RSAF and why they bought Lightenings is not only unfair, and unjust, but illogical as well.

The problem in Pakistan is that PA and PAF were on two different pages. IF the PA had stood up for PAF, and treated it like it's sister service, rather than step-sister, things would have happened and the PAF would have been a very different force today. Besides, big ticket items are never paid in one shot payment of cash, but as soft loans, spread over "X" number of years.

How the Jordanian F16's were paid for, is out there, for everyone to see. PA made it happen, otherwise NS's govt. was in no mood. Things have drastically improved between PA & PAF a lot since the M2K saga, but the damage was done, PAF missed a golden opportunity.

 

[Raider 21]

There was no Bhakhsheesh thrown in - Proof is in eating the pudding, it was well worth it. Today the world is seeing that the prices paid was absolutely justified, considering the tech we got, when we got it, and what we got with it. Today the IAF is upgrading theirs to the -9 standards, for US$+/-40m per a/c. So Original Price + US$40m = ?
So who paid less?

The UAE's procurement strategy and policy, has been crystal clear from day one, and has never face any scandals. Yes it's true that ultimately it is the SC, or DSC, who decides what has to be purchased, but that is backed by proper studies, trials, recommendations, and terms & conditions. You equating us with the RSAF and why they bought Lightenings is not only unfair, and unjust, but illogical as well.

The problem in Pakistan is that PA and PAF were on two different pages. IF the PA had stood up for PAF, and treated it like it's sister service, rather than step-sister, things would have happened and the PAF would have been a very different force today. Besides, big ticket items are never paid in one shot payment of cash, but as soft loans, spread over "X" number of years.

How the Jordanian F16's were paid for, is out there, for everyone to see. PA made it happen, otherwise NS's govt. was in no mood. Things have drastically improved between PA & PAF a lot since the M2K saga, but the damage was done, PAF missed a golden opportunity.

Yup, also they (UAE) bought their Vipers directly with the manufacturer rather than having it facilitated through FMS.

 

[Khafee]

Yup, also they (UAE) bought their Vipers directly with the manufacturer rather than having it facilitated through FMS.

FMS route, instead of Commercial Sales, in those days would have cost us 1.5%

We also paid for R&D, for the Blk 60, and hence retain rights for that tech. For 10 years it was without a doubt, the most lethal Viper version out there. Because you, more than anyone else, will know, in a dog fight there are no second place.

 

[Raider 21]

FMS route, instead of Commercial Sales, in those days would have cost us 1.5%

We also paid for R&D, for the Blk 60, and hence retain rights for that tech. For 10 years it was without a doubt, the most lethal Viper version out there. Because you more that anyone will know, in a dog fight there are no second places.

Agreed but there are some minute limitations. One example is that the landing gear tyres are slightly larger than the F-16C/D. This requires the pilot to land at a less AOA approach by the bracket. A few years back, a Block 60 overshot the runway after landing at at NAS Sigonella by a bit causing the pilot to eject. Nonetheless the stuff inside the jet is the best ever produced.

 

[帅的一匹]

Hi,

It is INDEED all about the engine---the heart and soul---the power plant---.

Here is my issue with the Paf---their comment---" J10 does not bring anything new to the table "---.

My question is---what does extra F16's bring to the table---or more JF17's bring to the table---nothing new---same level of performance---but now on a wider scale.

What would the J10 bring to the table---same level of performance as of the F16---but at a larger scale.

Supposedly---if you have 77 Caterpillar excavators---and you add 123 Komatsu excavators of similar capabilities to the inventory---and Pakistan air force is telling these young pakistanis that the DIGGING power of the extra 123 Komatsus will not be of any substance---.

Amongst many things that shocks me is the utter stupidity in understanding the core problem---the SHORTAGE IN NUMBERS----.

These young men don't even know when to use that term---and under what circumstances---.

They have a hole to fill in for 200 odd aircraft that are DEATH TRAPS---to bring the capabilities of all these aircraft to the same level first.

Paf has sabotaged the integrity of pakistan multiple times in thepast and has not changed yet.

Modern aircraft---you need to have them in your inventory---flying your flag.

China can promise me as much---and I don't doubt their promise---but the enemy is also working on it---it will create a scenario and diversion---that when the aircraft are needed the most in pakistan---the diversion would create and scenario in china where it may not be possible to do so.



Hi,

For that reason---I am against selling any J10's or JF17's to Bangladesh---no reason at all---.

Bro. If we deny BD's request for jets, we push them to India. As BD is a traditional user of Chinese weapon, I see no reason they will betray China for India. Yeh, the cutting edge fighter is FC31 and J20, we won't export it except Pakistan. Although the Awami league is pro India, they also are pro China, we will make sure everything is under control. I have heard some rumors:
1. BD will buy FC1/JF17 from CAC not PAC, the revenue will be split between China and Pakistan( it all about ego of BD, you guys have hidden scars about 1971, but in realistic politics you guys have no clash as of now!)
2. They will go for FC20(mostly like J10A, some said its B). 99% Bangladeshis in this forum support this option as I survey here. As Burmese airforce is having JF17, they think BAF shall look up to J10.

What I want to say is. If China can sell BD FC20, we must offer it to Pakistan long long long time ago. I know the importance of numbers, but it has got to so with money.

What I really concern is the sales of JF17 to Burma, which might not be a trusted one in the future. The Burmese try to collude with India by reinforcing the military ties. As the mean time, Bangladeshis obviously have no good feeling towards India.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Those who come in need is friends indeed. No matter how elegant F16 is, only J10 will come to PAF 's rescue in real war.

I'll be more happy if J-20 or J-31 came to help us

 

[帅的一匹]

I'll be more happy if J-20 or J-31 came to help us

FC31 is at PAF l's call. With 15% fuselage enlargement, it really look like a f22 now.