USA sceptic towards chinese economic development in Pakistan will bear fruits due to instability

[Rasengan]

Have the signed agreements been made public? Or are the provisions being kept hidden?.

The Bahawalpur Solar Power Park initiative comes under the umbrella of the Economic Corridor and their brochure clearly states the percentage of return on investment which is 17%. Therefore your analysis in describing the Government of Pakistan offering a sovereign guarantee of 18% to all projects conducted by Chinese companies is false. If the signed provisions are kept hidden, then why did you boldly advocate such a stance in the first place? You have to prove to the general audience of this thread that the Pakistani Government has been offering 18% return on sovereign guarantee to the Chinese, because tabloid newspapers is not considered a source of reference when the reporting standards in Pakistan are politicized.

Does CPEC have a railway ?

A feasibility report has been conducted on two separate routes.

 

[VCheng]

The Bahawalpur Solar Power Park initiative comes under the umbrella of the Economic Corridor and their brochure clearly states the percentage of return on investment which is 17%. Therefore your analysis in describing the Government of Pakistan offering a sovereign guarantee of 18% to all projects conducted by Chinese companies is false. If the signed provisions are kept hidden, then why did you boldly advocate such a stance in the first place? You have to prove to the general audience of this thread that the Pakistani Government has been offering 18% return on sovereign guarantee to the Chinese, because tabloid newspapers is not considered a source of reference when the reporting standards in Pakistan are politicized.



A feasibility report has been conducted on two separate routes.

Ah yes, 17% is such a more reasonable rate than 18%. Right.

The point is that these investments come with exorbitant rates guaranteed by the State, and denominated in dollars. Is that good for Pakistan? Really? IT is great for the investors, of course.

 

[Rasengan]

Ah yes, 17% is such a more reasonable rate than 18%. Right.

The point is that these investments come with exorbitant rates guaranteed by the State, and denominated in dollars. Is that good for Pakistan? Really? IT is great for the investors, of course.

Well technically in business every percentage counts for a rainy day The Bahawalpur Solar Power Park initiative was an example for you to understand how the Punjab Government in 2013 issued the decree of a 17% investment return on a sovereign guarantee and the Chinese under no circumstances were negotiating for this. Xinjiang Sunoasis has done a collaboration with the Government of Punjab producing 100 MW, while the remaining 900 MW was contracted to Zoenergy who invested $1.4 billion. The rate is extraordinarily high as Solar energy is relatively expensive, however this criteria is only for one project and you are struggling to validate the assumption that the Government of Pakistan promised investors 18% return on all projects. Now for the third time I am asking this question, prove to the audience that the Government of Pakistan has made this pledge with China, otherwise anybody can make senseless conjectures which holds no logical substance.

 

[VCheng]

Well technically in business every percentage counts for a rainy day The Bahawalpur Solar Power Park initiative was an example for you to understand how the Punjab Government in 2013 issued the decree of a 17% investment return on a sovereign guarantee and the Chinese under no circumstances were negotiating for this. Xinjiang Sunoasis has done a collaboration with the Government of Punjab producing 100 MW, while the remaining 900 MW was contracted to Zoenergy who invested $1.4 billion. The rate is extraordinarily high as Solar energy is relatively expensive, however this criteria is only for one project and you are struggling to validate the assumption that the Government of Pakistan promised investors 18% return on all projects. Now for the third time I am asking this question, prove to the audience that the Government of Pakistan has made this pledge with China, otherwise anybody can make senseless conjectures which holds no logical substance.

It is quite clear that you are playing your own favorites here. My point remains valid: These investments come with exorbitant guaranteed rates of return denominated in dollars. This is not a senseless conjecture, but an important fact that the nation must remain aware of, since they are all going to pay for the projects collectively, one way or another.

 

[Rasengan]

It is quite clear that you are playing your own favorites here. My point remains valid: These investments come with exorbitant guaranteed rates of return denominated in dollars. This is not a senseless conjecture, but an important fact that the nation must remain aware of, since they are all going to pay for the projects collectively, one way or another.

Please elucidate with precise words in what particular favorites I am playing on this thread Your articulation on this issue only remains valid, if you can prove the notion that these investments have come with exorbitant guaranteed rates of return, because otherwise unfortunately your statement falls into the category of senseless conjecture. Its imperative for the nation to be aware of these issues as the taxpayer is collectively repaying back the investor, however you should research more on the topic rather than conjuring up figures You are smart enough in not mentioning the 18% figure anymore

 

[VCheng]

Please elucidate with precise words in what particular favorites I am playing on this thread Your articulation on this issue only remains valid, if you can prove the notion that these investments have come with exorbitant guaranteed rates of return, because otherwise unfortunately your statement falls into the category of senseless conjecture. Its imperative for the nation to be aware of these issues as the taxpayer is collectively repaying back the investor, however you should research more on the topic rather than conjuring up figures You are smart enough in not mentioning the 18% figure anymore

I don't need to mention the 18% figure, since it is already out there:

"Consider: there is a guaranteed internal rate of return (IRR) of 18pc, and this is pegged to the dollar. So if the greenback is trading for Rs110 a couple of years down the road, we will be paying an extra 10pc in rupees. And presumably, Chinese contractors will be appointed without competition, so much of the investment will be recovered early if the contracts are front-loaded."

No free Chinese lunch - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Yes, you don't believe the press, I know.

 

[Rasengan]

I don't need to mention the 18% figure, since it is already out there:

"Consider: there is a guaranteed internal rate of return (IRR) of 18pc, and this is pegged to the dollar. So if the greenback is trading for Rs110 a couple of years down the road, we will be paying an extra 10pc in rupees. And presumably, Chinese contractors will be appointed without competition, so much of the investment will be recovered early if the contracts are front-loaded."

No free Chinese lunch - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Yes, you don't believe the press, I know.

The word of the press can never be considered the gospel truth and especially in the case of Pakistan where every institution is highly politicized as reality becomes distorted. Obviously Dawn is erroneous in assuming the idea that the Internal Rate of Return is 18% pegged to the dollar, because Zoenergy were offered 17% as mentioned in the brochure by the Government of Punjab. Therefore the article is false in its proposition, although its understandable for young naive individuals to fall into the trap of listening to the media All Chinese companies after delivering a feasibility report to the PPIB must negotiate with NEPRA on price. For example Three Gorges Corporation delivered a feasibility report in March 2014 to the PPIB and an agreement was signed in April 2015. However construction has only started this month, because they have just agreed terms with NEPRA on price and IRR, therefore the predetermined figure of 18% is a myth conjured by lunatics who have nothing better to write except nonsense in the tabloids

 

[VCheng]

The word of the press can never be considered the gospel truth and especially in the case of Pakistan where every institution is highly politicized as reality becomes distorted. Obviously Dawn is erroneous in assuming the idea that the Internal Rate of Return is 18% pegged to the dollar, because Zoenergy were offered 17% as mentioned in the brochure by the Government of Punjab. Therefore the article is false in its proposition, although its understandable for young naive individuals to fall into the trap of listening to the media All Chinese companies after delivering a feasibility report to the PPIB must negotiate with NEPRA on price. For example Three Gorges Corporation delivered a feasibility report in March 2014 to the PPIB and an agreement was signed in April 2015. However construction has only started this month, because they have just agreed terms with NEPRA on price and IRR, therefore the predetermined figure of 18% is a myth conjured by lunatics who have nothing better to write except nonsense in the tabloids

You would be more believable if the government released the contracts to be viewed and understood. Keeping them secret serves no one and creates the impression that unsavory details are being hidden.

 

[Rasengan]

You would be more believable if the government released the contracts to be viewed and understood. Keeping them secret serves no one and creates the impression that unsavory details are being hidden.

I can riposte the same argument because quite clearly the only evidence delivered by you on the topic of sovereign guarantee is from a tabloid newspaper whose institutional credibility is questionable. Now the link below should provide you a PDF brochure on the solar power project in Bahawalpur where it clearly states the factoid, that the Government of Pakistan will provide a sovereign guarantee of 17% to any company who desires to invest in this park. Therefore I have given you a proper government brochure whereas the only source of knowledge you have provided is from a newspaper article whose information has now been proven wrong. I will emphasize for the second time on the notion that not all project in CPEC are this high, since generating solar electricity is relatively expensive. in comparison to Hydel and Coal

QA Brochure - QASP

 

[VCheng]

I will emphasize for the second time on the notion that not all project in CPEC are this high,

So what are the rates for the other CPEC projects? Why are they not being made public?

 

[Rasengan]

So what are the rates for the other CPEC projects? Why are they not being made public?

The internal rate of return is different for each project and any company has to first negotiate with NEPRA. The big difference with the economic corridor from previous polices conducted by the Government of Pakistan is that they never promised a sovereign guarantee to investors. However as an example the economic internal rate of return (EIRR) on Munda hydropower project is 13.2%, therefore its illogical to assume all projects have been given an 18% return to Chinese companies. If you are interested then email the PPIB, WAPDA and other government agencies. They should make the figures known to the public, however when has any Pakistani civilian agencies bothered to do any real work to promote there country.

 

[VCheng]

They should make the figures known to the public, however when has any Pakistani civilian agencies bothered to do any real work to promote there country.

Exactly my point. Without this information, it is only natural to assume hanky panky, given the government's record.

 

[Vyom]

Exactly my point. Without this information, it is only natural to assume hanky panky, given the government's record.

Your Questions will now be dismissed, as you are too far away to know the details of the project and how grand it is. (of-course its grand, but the Chinese have zero risk in it, its totally at the risk and cost of Pakistan and in no way its a "softloan").

The notion that it is an investment is actually over stated, If you want to get a derivable result out of this you need to understand how China is "investing" its money world wide,if you Google the key words "China's neo-colonialism in Africa" It will throw light on how a mercantile state like China thinks and works (we all are friends until it comes to money), the only way for this to work Pakistan is that you need some astute financial maneuvering and link up to markets that will pay Pakistan in big $$s, all the while beating Chineese in its Exports. The easy way out in to make high value products at a lower cost than China and earn $s.

The way it is planned today (or whatever I can gather with the news that come out of Pakistan) break even time that the "investment" may take is 15-20 years. and by that time China will be ready for you with another "package". China needs people to depend on its own manufacturing because it has a huge population to feed. And when it comes to business it maintains a "buyer seller relation". Much like USSR and India, it made huge investments in Steel and other plants, but that never served the purpose because Russian Ruble went back to Russia with us paying the *debt*, and the Politicians getting the Kick backs. (the plants , project Engineers and even construction labors came from Russia, local people got a plant, no money as the there was no liquidity infused in the economy, the whole Idea of getting a project is to infuse money in the population too so as to increase purchasing power)

 

[sohail.ishaque]

Ships in the open sea are quite safe from tsunamis. Don't believe me? Do some homework,, it will be educational.

According to u, due to the fear of earth Quake, we shud not make CPEC,.. that also implies that Japan and other countries where more chances of quakes, shud not make a single road in their country...

Using ur logic... only safe place on earth is the OCEANS,.. we shud all move to ships and live in oceans...

Believe me bro, u have opened our eyes,. .. u r Einstein of the century.. WE SALUTE U SIR.....

 

[Amaa'n]

I will agree with you on that. Let the claims fly, but let the assessments be real, that is all I request.

kyon mere masoom bhayion ko taangh kar rahe ho Uncle

Yes, we may have over hyped the project, because this is an important project for us, we need to and have to make hype out of it because then we can present image to the world of a sustainable country.....Govt is on this because this is the only thing they get to brag about in next election campaign.....Military is on this as they get "Huge Budget' given in the name of 'Security' .......and China is on this because it is all about Intl Relations, as they balance of power in the region is little off with US - India - Japan relation , china needs to counter that.....