US responsible for the Murder of Pakistani Troops - Pak Rejects NATO Probe

[VCheng]

BTW, ISPR has rubbished this investigation saying that it does not give out certain facts which have been withheld. And it will give a reply after the official documented reply has been given.
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Yes, how Pakistan responds is the next crucial step in this saga.

 

[cyphercide]

Yes, how Pakistan responds is the next crucial step in this saga.

If I may Sir,

Is this the way to treat an ally?That is all that I can ask as a third party...

 

[fd24]

Yes, how Pakistan responds is the next crucial step in this saga.

What is your opinion VC - how do YOU see Pakistan responding? Im indeed interested in how you think Pakistan should respond??

 

[VCheng]

If I may Sir,

Is this the way to treat an ally?That is all that I can ask as a third party...

What treatment do yo refer to? This was a series of mistake that led to the tragic incident.

What is your opinion VC - how do YOU see Pakistan responding? Im indeed interested in how you think Pakistan should respond??

Well, Pakistan has stopped the land supply routes, pulled out of the Bonn Conference and cut back on its cooperation. I do not know know whether the NATO report will lead to continuation of these measures or not.

 

[Sugarcane]

What is your opinion VC - how do YOU see Pakistan responding? Im indeed interested in how you think Pakistan should respond??

Pakistan should expose yankees this time, if they have any proof of communication that must be shown to world. We should do it now. Plus we should be firm on blockage of routes and by exposing that they are liar we must stop usage of air-space and spare us from this F**** WOT. Let yankees deal with their friend Talibans and lets focus on hunting TTP & BLA.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Let this not end up as an exercise in futility,that would be the biggest insult to the martyred soldiers.The objective mustn't be to level revenge but to teach and assign accountability.What has transpired is that the American forces has siphoned off every liberty of sovereign nation of Pakistan while clinging on to plausible deniability on every incident.When a similar body count is assigned to a drone strike in Pakistan on suspected extremists with no forthcoming evidence,let there be the same outrage and swift response as when it is with uniformed men of the soil.

With the drone strikes, given that the targets are 'Tribal Pashtun', most of whom carry weapons, raising the kind of opposition that Pakistan has in the case of the PA check-posts being attacked, would be extremely difficult.

If you have not see the gun-camera footage and conversation between the Yank soldiers/pilots posted by Xeric, I encourage you to do so. The US would simply pull footage like that out (in the case of drone strikes) and argue that 'look! These people are carrying weapons, wearing turbans and shalwar kamiz and therefore must be Taliban militants!'

Good luck proving anything there - just look at the degenerate behavior of the US when the facts are clear that they attacked and massacred Pakistani troops without provocation.

 

[cyphercide]

What treatment do yo refer to? This was a series of mistake that led to the tragic incident.

The treatment of an outsider.Although it doesn't change the rules of the game,an unreserved apology preferably from the President might have worked wonders.A return to a sense of boundaries wouldn't hurt either.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Here is what I found:

If an aircraft violates or is on a trajectory that will violate Restricted or Prohibited airspace, it will be warned of military interception on 121.5 MHz. Aircraft emergency frequency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Given the proximity of Pakistani forces along the border, the only way this holds any meaning is if a significantly large 'no-fly zone buffer' is created along the Afghan-Pakistan border.

Otherwise, given the range of the weapons on US air assets, US AC wont have to violate or be on a 'trajectory to violate' to be able to target Pakistani territory and positions.

 

[fd24]

What treatment do yo refer to? This was a series of mistake that led to the tragic incident.



Well, Pakistan has stopped the land supply routes, pulled out of the Bonn Conference and cut back on its cooperation. I do not know know whether the NATO report will lead to continuation of these measures or not.

I am aware of what so far Pakistan has done. What i am intrigued to know is in your opinion what Pakistans next move should be - whats your opinion on this please?

 

[cyphercide]

With the drone strikes, given that the targets are 'Tribal Pashtun', most of whom carry weapons, raising the kind of opposition that Pakistan has in the case of the PA check-posts being attacked, would be extremely difficult.

If you have not see the gun-camera footage and conversation between the Yank soldiers/pilots posted by Xeric, I encourage you to do so. The US would simply pull footage like that out (in the case of drone strikes) and argue that 'look! These people are carrying weapons, wearing turbans and shalwar kamiz and therefore must be Taliban militants!'

Good luck proving anything there - just look at the degenerate behavior of the US when the facts are clear that they attacked and massacred Pakistani troops without provocation.

Thanks Ag,

The point I was debating is the legality of such operations.Just because that American held prisons are overflowing doesn't mean that the state retains the right to execute suspected extremists with no confirmed evidence.Just because you do not retain the provisions to detain,arrest and interrogate doesn't grant you the right to "waste em there and then". Whatever happened to the rights guaranteed to citizens one might argue.

 

[VCheng]

I am aware of what so far Pakistan has done. What i am intrigued to know is in your opinion what Pakistans next move should be - whats your opinion on this please?

Given that both countries, despite the present incident, are still indispensable to each other, some way has to be found to enable them to work together. I really see no other alternative at present.

 

[fd24]

Given that both countries, despite the present incident, are still indispensable to each other, some way has to be found to enable them to work together. I really see no other alternative at present.

By not showing remorse or sincerity in the death of the soldiers, by releasing snipets of their side, by pretending they have an explanation for us a day before christmas, by their stance in denying responsibility they are showing me their intent was to push the boundaries and scope of how much they can get away with. They see their inadequacies in Afghanistan as the fault of Pakistan. Their continuation of drone attacks and arrogant stance in my eyes isnt showing that they want to move forward.
If for once the Americans could have been honest from day 1, (something they seem to struggle with greatly) - by now their would have been a cooling off period and perhaps a returning to normality.
By their stance and what i have heard via the info released by PA, 2 hours on continuing systamatically bombing Pakistani soldiers is not a sign of wanting to move forward VC.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thanks Ag,

The point I was debating is the legality of such operations.Just because that American held prisons are overflowing doesn't mean that the state retains the right to execute suspected extremists with no confirmed evidence.Just because you do not retain the provisions to detain,arrest and interrogate doesn't grant you the right to "waste em there and then". Whatever happened to the rights guaranteed to citizens one might argue.

I agree with you there, that the legality of drone strikes should have been raised a long time ago and an end to this 'covert cooperation' brought about. Pakistan has a very strong legal case against the strikes:

1. Not self-defence, since these strikes are 'preemptive assassinations' based on an 'assumption' (not concrete evidence) that the individuals being blown to bits might be a 'future threat' to US forces or interests.

2. No international sanction for unilateral ISAF military operations inside Pakistan

A made this point to VCheng a few days ago on the 'Ghairat or Strategy' thread, that when you look at the fact that Pakistan has continued to adhere by extremely unpopular agreements and cooperation with the US against terrorism (and both the Military and political parties in power have paid a huge price for this in terms of public opinion), it suggests that Pakistan's political and military leadership has acted in a very cold-blooded and pragmatic manner, rather than the 'hot-headed, emotional and honor based' manner many people (liberals especially in Pakistan) ascribe to the 'Establishment' - even if one argues that this was in exchange for 'aid', it still points to a pragmatic and cooperative (in the war against Al Qaeda) military and political leadership.

I encourage non-Pakistanis and critics of the Pakistani military to step back and understand the above for a moment.

 

[VCheng]

............
A made this point to VCheng a few days ago on the 'Ghairat or Strategy' thread, that when you look at the fact that Pakistan has continued to adhere by extremely unpopular agreements and cooperation with the US against terrorism (and both the Military and political parties in power have paid a huge price for this in terms of public opinion), it suggests that Pakistan's political and military leadership has acted in a very cold-blooded and pragmatic manner, rather than the 'hot-headed, emotional and honor based' manner many people (liberals especially in Pakistan) ascribe to the 'Establishment' ........................

That is a great point AM.

It remains to be seen whether, given the recent egregious provocation, the same cold-blooded pragmatism will win (resulting in resumption of ties and cooperation) or not (with more harsh measure to come).

I would favor the pragmatic approach winning yet again. What say you?

 

[VelocuR]

ISPR rejects US NATO-attack probe report

RAWALPINDI: Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) has rejected the findings of a US-NATO investigation into Mohmand Agency massacre of 26 Pakistani troops deployed on a border outpost, Geo News reported.

Terming the report as biased as well as lacking in key facts, a statement issued here said it had holes in it, which need to be filled in.

A formal reply would be launched after ISPR would receive the details of it, the statement added.

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Pakistan rejects US probe into border deaths

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistani military on Thursday rejected the conclusions of a U.S. investigation into a NATO airstrike that killed two dozen Pakistani soldiers last month along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

U.S. officials, unveiling the results of their investigation into the November 25-26 incident that has enraged Pakistanis, said both sides were to blame and said the soldiers' deaths were partly rooted in miscommunication and misunderstandings.

Pakistani army spokesman Major General Athar Abbas said Pakistan does not agree with the U.S findings because they are "short on facts."

---------- Post added at 09:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------

Pakistan rejects NATO regrets

ISLAMABAD
Pakistan rejects NATO statement of regret on the raid that killed 24 Pakistani troops. While Kabul says the raid came after a Pakistan attack, Islamabad has denied the accusations, warning of dire results on Afghan ties

Pakistan yesterday denied provoking NATO air strikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers and refused to accept expressions of regret over the cross-border attack that has inflamed U.S.-Pakistani ties.

NATO and the United States sought to limit the fallout from Nov. 26’s attack, which has seen Pakistan close vital supply routes to the 140,000 foreign troops serving in Afghanistan and order a review of its U.S. alliance. The crisis erupted months after the fraught U.S.-Pakistan alliance was plunged to its lowest point in years by the killing in May of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden. But few questions have been answered about what exactly happened, following reports that Pakistani soldiers opened fire first on U.S. and Afghan forces. The Wall Street Journal, following a similar report by Britain’s Guardian newspaper, cited three Afghan officials and one Western official as saying the air raid was called in to shield allied forces targeting Taliban fighters.

NATO and Afghan forces “were fired on from a Pakistani army base,” the unnamed Western official told the Journal. “It was a defensive action.” An Afghan official said the government in Kabul believes the fire came from the Pakistani military base -- and not from insurgents in the area. An Afghan border police commander said NATO troops hardly ever open fire unless they are attacked.

‘We asked for ceasefire’

Pakistan insists the attack was “unprovoked.” “This is not true. They are making up excuses. And by the way, what are their losses, casualties?” Major General Athar Abbas, Pakistan’s chief military spokesman, wrote to Agence France-Presse. He said the attack lasted almost two hours and that commanders had contacted NATO counterparts while it was going on, asking “they get this fire to cease, but somehow it continued,” Associated Press reported.

Asked about expressions of regret by NATO he said: “We do not accept it because such kind of attacks have been taking place in the past...” He told Pakistani television channel Geo that 72 Pakistani soldiers have been killed and 250 wounded by fire from across the Afghan border over the last three years. In retaliation, Islamabad has blocked NATO convoys from crossing into Afghanistan, ordered a review of its alliance with the U.S. and is mulling whether to boycott a key conference on Afghanistan next month. NATO says that for now its troops would not be affected by the disruption to supply routes though some 48 percent of all coalition cargo usually passes through two points on the Pakistan border. Abbas also said the attack could hurt cooperation on Afghanistan. “This could have serious consequences in the level and extent of our cooperation,” Abbas told Reuters.

Meanwhile, China said it was “deeply shocked” by the incident and called for an investigation while German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle telephoned Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar to express support and solidarity with the people and government of Pakistan.