Featured US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan

[The Maverick]

Bro, things are not that simple.

Block 3 is a significant leap from older Blocks in the BVR engagement regime (AESA radar system; 11 hardpoints; PL-15 compatibility). Even then PAF need numbers, and F-16s will remain relevant due to very good reliability, speed, range, payload capacity, and sensor package.

If (or when) Americans are willing to give hardware to Pakistan, F-16 Bock 70/72 would be excellent choice because it is a major leap from Block 52+ and rock solid counter to Rafale.

Your still banking /hoping on F16 despite USA letting you down time and time again.

USA /PAK relations will never get to were they have been in past

World has changed

You are in bed with China
Your arch enemy is India
And USA has a 21st century strategic partnership with india started by Clinton and continued ever since . The strategic partnership is a national defense policy that will continue for many years as CHINA is the threat for next 50 years.

Your F16 maybe compromised at some point. i would suggest when you most need them .........ie during a flash point Pak will not be armed during conflict with india BY USA period

 

[fitpOsitive]

US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan
Anwar IqbalPublished March 10, 2021 - Updated less than a minute ago
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The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform. — Anadolu Agency
WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told Dawn.
According to Bloomberg News, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”
The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.
The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.
The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.
Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.
The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.
He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.
Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.
The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.
In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.
Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.
In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.
The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.
The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.
US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.
Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021

Deliver it to Azerbaijan. From there we will take them as second hand hardware.

 

[Successwill]

FCK USA - from Pakistan.

The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin Turkish spokeman added.

Noone can blame USA. Its their engine. They have the right to do whatever they want. Our stupid dormant officials are to blame, past and present.

 

[Vapnope]

The Biden administration is going to tear apart the Taliban deal.

Sorry but this isn't going to happen anytime soon. Americans tried to wipe out Taliban with trillion of dollars and hundred and thousands of troops only to know that they cannot solve the domestic mess in Afghanistan. The fate of Afghanistan was sealed in 2014.

On topic: More and more things point out towards a fact that your defense needs cannot be solved by buying off the shelf equipment from outside your country. We don't have funds and we don't have expertise and this would continue to happen to us in forseeable future. Turkey and China despite being our closest friends will also have to draw a line to what they can offer us and what they can't.

We will have to be self reliant to ensure our defenses otherwise, we will have painful lessons.

 

[DrWatson775]

Dawn news reported this and its comment section is full of indian trolls
Dawn comments moderation policy seems to accept only sarcastic and flame posts against Pakistan.
only on 27 Feb 19. the Dawns comments section was deserted

Agree, I have noticed this for years. Have stopped reading Dawn, don't even visit the website, why give them the traffic.

I do believe there will be some contingency plan to get attack Helis but obviously Plan B will result in some delay I think. I am not in the know how but still cannot believe PA thought this acquisition was going to go through, we may say it was Turkish S400 purchase but even if there wasn't Turkish S400/F35 issue, I would still not be hopeful. Again there are probably be things behind the scenes no one is aware of.

 

[HttpError]

Your still banking /hoping on F16 despite USA letting you down time and time again.

USA /PAK relations will never get to were they have been in past

World has changed

You are in bed with China
Your arch enemy is India
And USA has a 21st century strategic partnership with india started by Clinton and continued ever since . The strategic partnership is a national defense policy that will continue for many years as CHINA is the threat for next 50 years.

Your F16 maybe compromised at some point. i would suggest when you most need them .........ie during a flash point Pak will not be armed during conflict with india BY USA period

Who needs the USA? Pakistan is more than enough to handle you guys. If you have "USA" we have China and guess what USA doesn't have any border disputes with Pakistan but China has with you guys had already gobbled 1,000 KM of your territory.

 

[Super Falcon]

US blackmailing policy wont much ladmst of counyries learned soon no one will buy weapons from usa major chunk of USA defence ewuipment buyers become self exporters

China
Pak
Turkey
KSA just started
UAE
Iiran


They doing blessing abd desguice for us

 

[BRAVO_]

all serious defense analysts were aware from a very long time that US will block the delivery of CTS-800 turboshafts engines incase of any delivery to pakistan and this same news was published back in July 2019 as well
Link of News
i am sure by now both turkey and pakistan have already worked out a solution because they were aware about it two years back and since than many things have changed which will reveal in upcoming few months

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I do believe there will be some contingency plan to get attack Helis but obviously Plan B will result in some delay I think. I am not in the know how but still cannot believe PA thought this acquisition was going to go through, we may say it was Turkish S400 purchase but even if there wasn't Turkish S400/F35 issue, I would still not be hopeful. Again there are probably be things behind the scenes no one is aware of.

on the face of it looks like big win for gloating Indians but still there are two positive outcomes. Both Z-10 and T-129 got extensively tested in Pakistani environment. Z-10 got some improvements and Turks have started working on their own engine program.

mishaps are a fact of the game. not every thing is guaranteed, Turks were of the view that they should be able to lobby their way out for the US engines. their current tussle with USA and Indian influence on Americans against Pakistan also didn't favor our T-129 program.

there is no restriction on acquiring Z-10 helicopters from china but Pakistan seems to be waiting for some upgrades before making the call to wait for Turks or go ahead with the newer version of Chinese gunships.

 

[KaiserX]

As usual you can blame our idiot generals for being so short sighted. The Chinese gifted us 3 Z-10 helis for testing... in the last few years all they have been used for it fly bys and military parades.

There was no way in hell this deal was ever going to go through esp with critical western components. Wasted atleast a decade on these and the super cobras. To be frank for the price we were paying (1.5 billion) we could have easily ordered 40 Super Cobras + Hell fire missiles and possibly gotten a lucrative upgrade package for the existing Cobras for free. That would have been 80+ deadly cobras able to launch hellfire missiles. but our generals wasted such opportunity.

At best we should order another 12 Mi-35s+ 20 Z-10S ASAP

 

[Dalit]

Sorry but this isn't going to happen anytime soon. Americans tried to wipe out Taliban with trillion of dollars and hundred and thousands of troops only to know that they cannot solve the domestic mess in Afghanistan. The fate of Afghanistan was sealed in 2014.

On topic: More and more things point out towards a fact that your defense needs cannot be solved by buying off the shelf equipment from outside your country. We don't have funds and we don't have expertise and this would continue to happen to us in forseeable future. Turkey and China despite being our closest friends will also have to draw a line to what they can offer us and what they can't.

We will have to be self reliant to ensure our defenses otherwise, we will have painful lessons.

Unfortunately certain military and concerned officials still think differently. If you and I can agree on self-sufficiency I don't understand why the people in charge cannot. Somehow the leadership at top positions still believe in restoration of military aid and purchase of military hardware from the US. It won't happen.

India is the puppy of the US. The US wants its puppy to defeat China and to appease India the US would sacrifice Pakistan with eyes open.

It all boils down to the leadership and I am afraid we don't have cunning and smart leaders. I don't want good or friendly leaders. You don't buy anything with that. I want cunning and smart leaders. Those that would walk over bodies, but not flinch on the set objectives.

on the face of it looks like big win for gloating Indians but still there are two positive outcomes. Both Z-10 and T-129 got extensively tested in Pakistani environment. Z-10 got some improvements and Turks have started working on their own engine program.

mishaps are a fact of the game. not every thing is guaranteed, Turks were of the view that they should be able to lobby their way out for the US engines. their current tussle with USA and Indian influence on Americans against Pakistan also didn't favor our T-129 program.

there is no restriction on acquiring Z-10 helicopters from china but Pakistan seems to be waiting for some upgrades before making the call to wait for Turks or go ahead with the newer version of Chinese gunships.

This is by no means a victory for India. This is a victory for Pakistan if the concerned authorities make the right decision. Get in touch with China and look at all the alternatives. Pakistan will get a good deal through China bypassing the US.

Next, curtail relations with the US and put them on notice. If the new US government fails to acknowledge the Afghan deal there are going to be consequences. Tell them politely. This will jeopardise US relations with Pakistan very severely.

 

[Pak_Sher]

How many countries are still flying these Cobras? Plenty I take it and spares are not an issue really. We are still flying Sea Kings that are a decade older than the Cobras and they seem to be doing just fine in the more corrosive marine environment. I think if Japan and Thailand can still fly these AH-1F models, so can we. Again, I dont see any urgency on PA part to replace them even if it would have liked to by now. Refurbish them the best you can (look at Iran doing it) and install upgrades as you see fit.

@GriffinsRule

Pakistan has extensively used the Cobras in ops in the last 2 decades, but Japan or Thailand usage is peace time. So we cannot compare the two scenarios.

 

[ARMalik]

Italian option is a pretty straight forward option even as far as Heli engines are concerned.

 

[Thorough Pro]

A blessing in disguise
It has taken us more than a decade to break free from the yoke of US influence, I am happy that we will continue on the same path

I hope that we we learn a new lesson and embark upon an indigenous program for attack Helis or a potent autonomous anti-armory drone program

US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan
Anwar IqbalPublished March 10, 2021 - Updated less than a minute ago
Facebook Count
Twitter Share

0

The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform. — Anadolu Agency
WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told Dawn.
According to Bloomberg News, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”
The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.
The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.
The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.
Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.
The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.
He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.
Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.
The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.
In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.
Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.
In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.
The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.
The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.
US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.
Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021

that would be axing your own feet

Pakistan should try to pay to get 12 AH-1Z Super Cobras from the USA and order another 18 of them.
This might be helpful in negotiating for 30+ T-129 Engines from the USA along with spares for future use.

Besides T-129s and AH-1Zs, PAA should also focus on Z-10 acquisition.

 

[FuturePAF]

The aging Cobras need to be retired at the earliest. Replacements need to occur in the short term. Pakistan should seek alternatives urgently.

Ideally Retired once T-129s become available, but the Pakistan Army should consider a program to refurbish them, in house, for the FC.

Transferring the 40 Cobras (correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this the number in the current stock) after a through rebuilt (with a Turkish engine), refurbishment and modest modernization (say avionics and weapons available on the T-129 should be made available on this), will ensure the FC has the needed air support to back up a Quick reaction force (transport helos, drones, fixed wing CAS, MRAPS), considering the threat doesn’t seem like it will be going away anytime soon. The Iranians have been able to keep their cobras going for all these decades, so ... it maybe worth keeping them around a little longer; to support the IBO sweeps.