Featured US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan

[GriffinsRule]

Bro, if that was the case, the Chinese could've resolved it for Pakistan on urgent basis.

But the fact is, Pakistan had the 3 Z-10 helicopters with the Pakistan Army "testing" for years while they were busy negotiating deals for T-129 and AH-1Z. As soon as the deals were signed, Pakistan made the altitude and heat excuses and Just rejected the Z-10 outright, not even bothering to request China to make Pakistan specfic enhancements.

Were the T-129s and AH-1Zs tested in Pakistan as vigorously as much as the Z-10s were?

I thought you would have known better than to ask that question. Yes T-129s were tested exactly in the same method and terrains as the Z-10s.
AH-1Zs did not need testing in Pakistan as Americans do it in very harsh environments on their own, not to mention decades of experience building and operating the Cobras in all types of terrains, whereas both the Turks and Chinese, this is their first attempt at attack helicopters.

Second, why should have Pakistan cancelled the deal with the Turks in 2019? What is the logic behind that? Did we put any money down? No. The facility is provided by the Turks themselves. So cancelling the deal would have accomplished zilch, except to strain ties with a country that is one of handful to stand by you.

 

[aamirzs]

Pakistan may not get Z-10 but will go for 30 of Z-10ME, until Turkish one are ready.

Z-10ME was Upgraded for Pakistan ... these Z-10ME comes with active and passive countermeasures, missile approach warning system, radar warning receiver, new engine exhaust nozzle pointed upwards to reduce infrared signature, new intake filtration systems and armor panels, more powerful 1200 kW engine, larger ammunition magazine, appliqué graphene-based armor panels, infrared jammer, and a new IFF interrogator.

 

[Dalit]

It was obvious from day 1

But mental slaves of West won't listen

Exactly. It was obvious as daylight. Like it is obvious in every other dealing.

Pakistan may not get Z-10 but will go for 30 of Z-10ME, until Turkish one are ready.

Z-10ME was Upgraded for Pakistan ... these Z-10ME comes with active and passive countermeasures, missile approach warning system, radar warning receiver, new engine exhaust nozzle pointed upwards to reduce infrared signature, new intake filtration systems and armor panels, more powerful 1200 kW engine, larger ammunition magazine, appliqué graphene-based armor panels, infrared jammer, and a new IFF interrogator.

We still don't get it. America is doing this to appease Hindustan. Clear as daylight.

bad business

We still don't get it. America is doing this for Hindustan. America is fully in bed with Hindustan. Always had been. This move doesn't come as a surprise. It was expected all along.

 

[TOPGUN]

PAA will now go for Z-10ME case closed !!!!

 

[LeGenD]

Well, the first Pakistani pilot to fly the F-16 also built the JF-17 Thunders.

According to him (Air Marshal (retd) Shahid Latif), the JF-17 Thunders are based on the F-16 design and Block-3 have supercede the Pakistani F-16s.

Bro, things are not that simple.

Block 3 is a significant leap from older Blocks in the BVR engagement regime (AESA radar system; 11 hardpoints; PL-15 compatibility). Even then PAF need numbers, and F-16s will remain relevant due to very good reliability, speed, range, payload capacity, and sensor package.

If (or when) Americans are willing to give hardware to Pakistan, F-16 Bock 70/72 would be excellent choice because it is a major leap from Block 52+ and rock solid counter to Rafale.

 

[The Maverick]

wait for a few years and win the future


Turkish TEI TS-1400 turboshaft Engine will be ready in a few years even its superior to American LHTEC CTS800


TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine

TEI-TS1400 engine was designed for the T625 multirole Helicopter and T629 Attack Helicopter


T-129 Attack Helicopter used LHTEC CTS800 turboshaft engines that have 1,373 shaft horsepower each, created jointly by Rolls-Royce and Honeywell

İndigenous engine TEI TS-1400 which produces 1,660 horsepower
View attachment 723442

Turkey will be 3rd country in the world that develop 10 tons class heavy Attack Helicopter after The US ( AH-64E ) and Russia ( KA-52 )

Turkey has enough capability to develop its own ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter through T-129 Attack Helicopter

Turkey has its own technological capability to produce the main components of the Helicopters

-- fuselage
-- electronics and avionics
-- mission computer
-- Helicopter electronic warfare system
-- Infrared Counter Measure System
-- HELMET Integrated Display System
-- fire control radar
-- the main and tail landing gear
-- Engine
-- the transmission rotor
-- 20mm and 30 mm Gun with buried munition box
-- guided rocket
-- missiles

Turkey has 3 different Attack Helicopter projects 5 tons class T-129 , 6 tons class T-629 and 10 tons class ATAK-II
also 5 and 10 tons class Utility Helicopter projects

so T-629 and ATAK-II Attack Helicopters , T-625 and 10 tons class Utility Helicopters will be 100% indigenous including Turboshaft Engine


even Turkey develops unmanned and electric Attack Helicopter
View attachment 723446




Pakistan can work with Turkey on Helicopter and UCAV technologies to win the future

İndia has no this capability

Are you serious

Whats this then buddy

Rudra which is Armed Dhruv

And the new Light attack Chopper to the extreme left

Work in tandem with

And the Russian mi24

 

[sha ah]

Just buy the Z-10 from the Chinese. Cheaper and you can get technology transfers, build them in Pakistan.

Short term solution: 12 to 18 Chinese Helicopters
Long term solution: Wait for to Turkey’s heavy Gunship and engine to be ready in few years.


Same people are still waiting for block 70

 

[Dalit]

I think it's time to develop a gunship just like the JF 17 program..... we should go ahead with a JV with Turkey... use the engines Z10 is using... put domestic and Turkish avionics in it according to our needs..... they will be light weight so we can procure in large numbers upto 100 ... once the Americans see this they'll come back to us begging to give us the AH1Z so they can have some leverage over us ..... PA should seriously consider this the only downside is it might take 5 to 6 years from design prototype to manufacturing.... but then again if Z10ME fits our needs why not ask for local manufacturing .....

Pakistan needs to go for Chinese option.

It doesn't change the fact that they produce great machines and despite all the cons when going for their equipment, Pakistan loves it.

What good are great machines when you cannot afford them or cannot get your hands on?

 

[sha ah]

Turkey is just as much of a partner with this helicopter program as they were with the F-35. That's the difference between true sovereignty and vassalage. There's no point in paying so much for western hardware when they use the hardware to control your foreign policy.

Iran learned this the hard war in the 80s during the Iran-Iraq war when the west would not sell Iran spare parts for its tanks or fighter jets. It may take longer, it may be harder and in the beginning your weapons might be inferior but eventually when a nation keeps trying it will develop world class hardware. Turkey has a long way to go. Even their famous drones are mostly made up of foreign components.

US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan
Anwar IqbalPublished March 10, 2021 - Updated less than a minute ago
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The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform. — Anadolu Agency
WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told Dawn.
According to Bloomberg News, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”
The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.
The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.
The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.
Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.
The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.
He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.
Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.
The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.
In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.
Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.
In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.
The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.
The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.
US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.
Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021

 

[LeGenD]

Bro, if that was the case, the Chinese could've resolved it for Pakistan on urgent basis.

But the fact is, Pakistan had the 3 Z-10 helicopters with the Pakistan Army "testing" for years while they were busy negotiating deals for T-129 and AH-1Z. As soon as the deals were signed, Pakistan made the altitude and heat excuses and Just rejected the Z-10 outright, not even bothering to request China to make Pakistan specfic enhancements.

Were the T-129s and AH-1Zs tested in Pakistan as vigorously as much as the Z-10s were?

Some issues are not easy to resolve just like that. PA never hesitates to give Chinese options a FAIR shot in trials IMHO. Pakistani trials can be instructive to Chinese as well. China came up with improved Z-10ME eventually and offered to PA.

Pakistan should try its luck with Biden administration and see how it goes. Otherwise, something has to come.

 

[Dalit]

Bro, things are not that simple.

Block 3 is a significant leap from older Blocks in the BVR engagement regime (AESA radar system; 11 hardpoints; PL-15 compatibility). Even then PAF need numbers, and F-16s will remain relevant due to very good reliability, speed, range, payload capacity, and sensor package.

If (or when) Americans are willing to give hardware to Pakistan, F-16 Bock 70/72 would be excellent choice because it is a major leap from Block 52+ and rock solid counter to Rafale.

Not even in a million years is Pakistan getting the F-16 Block 70. It is even a useless thought to have.

We need to get something very quickly through our heads. Our honeymoon with Americans is over. It has been over for a very long while. The Americans are never going to provide any offensive weapons to Pakistan. The same applies for European nations who follow US dictation.

The Biden administration is not pro-Pakistan. It is pro-India. Trump was the only good thing to have happened in a long while. We are deluding ourselves to think that Biden administration is going to be lucky charm. Pakistan is 100% back to square one.

1. The Biden administration is going to tear apart the Taliban deal.
2. Pakistan will be pressured to do more.

 

[LeGenD]

Not even in a million years is Pakistan getting the F-16 Block. It is even a useless thought to have.

Perhaps you are right but let us see how relationship pans out in the coming years.

Afghanistan will be settled issue at some point, and there is always room for good diplomacy.

 

[MilSpec]

US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan
Anwar IqbalPublished March 10, 2021 - Updated less than a minute ago
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Twitter Share

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The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform. — Anadolu Agency
WASHINGTON: The United States has prevented Turkey from supplying 30 locally-made attack helicopters to Pakistan, diplomatic sources in Washington told Dawn.
According to Bloomberg News, Turkey’s presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin told reporters on Monday that “the US has blocked Turkey’s helicopter sale to Pakistan, which will likely lead to Islamabad buying it from China.”
The ATAK T-129 is a twin-engine, tandem seat, multi-role, all-weather attack helicopter based on the Agusta A129 Mangusta platform and is equipped with American engines.
The US is holding up export clearance for the LHTEC engine.
The blockade could “cause more harm” to US interests, Mr Kalin added.
Turkey and Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion deal for the Turkish-made helicopter gunships in July 2018. But the delivery date was pushed back after the Pentagon refused to issue the Turkish company an export license for the engines.
The Turkish official mentioned the US blockade while briefing journalists on the impact of US sanctions on Turkey, triggered by Ankara’s decision to buy S-400 missiles from Russia.
He said Turkey was forced to buy Russian missiles because Washington had refused to supply Patriot air defence missiles systems to Ankara on favorable terms. The sanctions are designed to deter any country from signing military deals with Russia and restrict US loans and credits to a defaulter.
Developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) in partnership with a European firm, Agusta-Westland, the ATAK T-129 helicopter is designed for advanced attack and reconnaissance missions in hot and high environments in both day and night conditions.
The United States announced the first blockade in July 2019, days before a meeting between the former US president, Donald Trump, and Prime Minister Imran Khan in Washington.
In January 2020, the head of Turkey’s Defence Industries (SSB) said that Ankara and Islamabad had extended the delivery deal by another year to ensure a smooth delivery. The agreement gives Pakistan the option to buy the Chinese Z-10 helicopters should the Turkish deal not materialize.
Reports in the Turkish media said that the Turkish-built T-129 ATAK helicopter was still on the Pakistan Army shopping list.
In August 2020, Turkey hired a Washington law firm to lobby with the US administration and Congress for securing an export license which will help complete its biggest ever defence deal with Pakistan.
The US firm Greenberg Traurig and its subcontractor were paid a monthly retainer of $25,000 to lobby for the deal.
The latest blockade, however, is likely to force the two allies to cancel the deal, persuading Islamabad to look for other options.
US officials in Washington were contacted for comments on the announcement made in Ankara but did not respond.
Published in Dawn, March 10th, 2021

That sucks for an 11 yr old sticky thread running here.

 

[pakpride00090]

Perhaps you are right but let us see how relationship pans out in the coming years.

Afghanistan will be settled issue at some point, and there is always room for good diplomacy.

That is even worse. Once Afg issue is solved , the only leverage Pakistan ever had on US would be gone.

Expect more scrutiny on nuclear program and better Relations with India against US.

People are in for a rude awakening once US is gone from this region. Forget about new f-16 or choppers , I would be surprised if they would even allow spares/maintenance of current f-16s .

China is new enemy and by extension us. India is now buddy buddy.

The earlier the fanboys drop their love for western equipment , the better it is .

 

[Dalit]

Perhaps you are right but let us see how relationship pans out in the coming years.

Afghanistan will be settled issue at some point, and there is always room for good diplomacy.

This is the crux of the problem. The Biden regime is again going to increase troops in Afghanistan. They are under the illusion that Afghanistan can still be won militarily. Of course it cannot.

The US will always view Pakistan through Afghan and Indian prism. Biden administration is another Obama administration on steroids. Nothing good will happen.