Featured US blocks delivery of Turkish gunships to Pakistan

[Mentee]

lets go back to our all weather friend

The chinese may also offer the milimetere wave radar which the u.s ones lack ----- enough to meet our requirements

 

[mumairb]

This helicopter has an engine manufactured by Honeywell Aerospace and Rolls Royce is its parent company, if pak can't procure these helicopter then how do you expect them to procure another engine also produced by the parent company ??

My knowledge about helicopters is quite meagre but I wonder why Pakistan isn't considering Rolls-Royce Gem engine that is being used on the original Agusta A129 Mangusta by the Italians? We could either go directly to Britain or negotiate the Italian version, if possible. I don't think either countries would be as problematic as the U.S. If able to be integrated Pakistan should consider the engines with ToT.

Additionally, would the Rolls-Royce Gem engines be able to integrate with Z-10? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[mumairb]

Also what i don't understand why Helicopter are still considered in the age of modern warfare especially when you have drones.

 

[War Thunder]

Same people are still waiting for block 70

Them wannabe's won't ever get out of that complex tbh.
Problem is not they exist among the general public or this forum. Problem is many of them exist within the armed forces.

Also what i don't understand why Helicopter are still considered in the age of modern warfare especially when you have drones.

Then you need to understand modern warfare before trying to understand the role of helis mate.
Drones do not replace helis, nor bombers, nor recon aircraft. They are like an Add on, not a replacement, not yet.

 

[waz]

Milgem engines too?

This has been answered already. The engines for the ships are unaffected, as an easy replacement from MTU Rolls can be sourced, the same engines which will power the Turkish Milgems.

 

[flameboard]

why not just use Russian or Ukrainian heli engines?

 

[SABRE]

This helicopter has an engine manufactured by Honeywell Aerospace and Rolls Royce is its parent company, if pak can't procure these helicopter then how do you expect them to procure another engine also produced by the parent company ??

The original Italian A129 upon which the Turkish T129 is based did not/does not use Honeywell engine. They had/have Rolls Royce Gem engines. RR buying Honeywell does not mean that American export laws apply to RR's products/IP. They would only apply to items that Honeywell owns IP for or RR choses to develop/produce in the Honeywell on the American soil. Gems being strictly RR product and produced in Europe are exempted, to the best of my knowledge.

The only problem that I see is that the Honeywell LHTEC T800 are reported to have better performance than the RR's Gem engines. The export versions of A129 (i.e, A129I) are being offered with LHTEC T800.

American restrictions don't apply to T129 per-say. They apply to American equipments onboard T129. If Pakistan can replace them with Italian/European equipment the Americans would not have any control over their exports. For the past couple of decades the Europeans have been trying hard to phaseout American equipments from their technologies because of the American export control laws & they have had considerable success in it.

But again, disclaimer: my knowledge about helicopters in general and A129/T129 is quite meagre.

 

[koolio]

I am not surprised by the US action, enough time has been wasted, Pakistan needs to get Chinese attack helicopters as a back up on urgent basis, its going to be some time before the Turks come up with alternate engine.

 

[LeGenD]

American restrictions don't apply to T129 per-say. They apply to American equipments onboard T129. If Pakistan can replace them with Italian/European equipment the Americans would not have any control over their exports. For the past couple of decades the Europeans have been trying hard to phaseout American equipments from their technologies because of the American export control laws & they have had considerable success in it.

If this is correct than solution is to seek joint venture (JV) with Turkey and get some European companies onboard. This should have been done much earlier but better late than never.

 

[The Eagle]

It was already expressed by US before & Turkey was in talks for release of Heli Engines. But I am surprised that few sounds like PA was only waiting for T-129 ATAK or we are doomed. I don't think that there are no plans beside this one.

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

I think it's time to develop a gunship just like the JF 17 program..... we should go ahead with a JV with Turkey... use the engines Z10 is using... put domestic and Turkish avionics in it according to our needs..... they will be light weight so we can procure in large numbers upto 100 ... once the Americans see this they'll come back to us begging to give us the AH1Z so they can have some leverage over us ..... PA should seriously consider this the only downside is it might take 5 to 6 years from design prototype to manufacturing.... but then again if Z10ME fits our needs why not ask for local manufacturing .....

 

[ziaulislam]

Pdf defence "experts" would likely ditch a cost effective and state of the art weapon system in favour of any thing handicapped if has western origin -------


e.g a Pakistani version of f16 would still perfrom way better in war than a j10/j17 even though it has no aesa ,standoff weapon carrying capability and is over priced without Pakistani having access to its source codes ------- still is "best"

Neither PAF nor PDF believes in this

The era when PAF and PDF believed in this was before 2005-10 when chinese had nothing other then f7 to offer..things have changed alot in last 15-20 years..for one chinese economy increased 10X or 1000% so did their R&D and defense budget
So PAF will not buy western equipment if its not offered on discount ..hence PAF will not procure f16 on its own money

Had this been 2005 PAF would have jumped at f16 at same price even though our economy was 3x smaller then(just like we did in 1990 when our economy was 6x smaller)

 

[mike2000 is back]

I was really hoping that by some miracle Turkey would have finished its indigenous engine for this aircraft

Making a RELIABLE PROVEN engine is not like building a car or a bike. Lol. It takes huge investment , skills, constant quality checks by putting engine under the most severe stress conditions etc and most of all time. If not many countries will be making engines here and there . So Pakistan will have to wait for quite some time for that.

Or for the time being turkey fits the helicopter with comparable euro Russian or Ukrainian engines
And latter batches with indigenous ones

That will necessitate a change in design which the Turks are not ready to do just for one deal i suppose. Moreover, you guys forget that Turkey is not the only one involved in this project there are european companies involved as well. So their approval is also necessary as well.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

The rise of Turkey has been the brightspot of the Islamic world in the last 10 years

 

[Polestar 2]

CAAC certificates WZ16 turboshaft for AC352

The Civil Aviation Authority of China (CAAC) has certificated the WZ16 turboshaft that will power the AVIC AC352 7t multi-role helicopter.

www.flightglobal.com

CAAC certificates WZ16 turboshaft for AC352
By Greg Waldron11 October 2019

• Save article

The Civil Aviation Authority of China (CAAC) has certificated the WZ16 turboshaft that will power the AVIC AC352 7t multi-role helicopter.
The Civil Aviation Authority of China (CAAC) has certificated the WZ16 turboshaft that will power the AVIC AC352 7t multi-role helicopter.
The engine is based on the Safran Ardiden 3C that powers the Airbus Helicopters H175, on which the AC352 is based. It was jointly developed by Safran and the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC).
The news follows EASA’s certification of the Ardiden 3C in 2018.
Safran says that the WZ16 “is the first jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities.”
The specific AECC units involved in the work are Harbin Dongan Engine and Hunan Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute.
“Certification from Chinese authorities marks a major milestone for Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC” says Safran executive vice president Bruno Bellanger.
“It confirms that the WZ16 is now ready to operate in accordance with world-class Chinese safety and performance standards, thanks to an intensive maturation plan conducted by our partners. It is also a historic moment for the Chinese aerospace industry as it is the first-ever jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely CAAC certified, and a major step toward AC352 entry-into-service.”
The AC352 conducted its maiden flight in December 2016, and has been undergoing testing since then.
The WZ16/Ardiden 3C turboshaft falls in the 1,700-2,000shp range