US backs India-Iran Chabahar port deal as it outflanks China-Pakistan Gwadar project

[VCheng]

However, in the basic contradiction between a state founded on parochial grounds and owing allegiance to a transcendental set of beliefs, and one founded on the rights of the individual, and the sovereignty of the people, while Pakistan has chosen to be hostile to one example of this model, it has chosen to ally itself to another example (however distorted that model might be in terms of genuine representation of popular wishes and desires). This is plain contradictory, and it does not require the subtle analysis of a Mao Zedong to find it discovered in the full glare of day.

Astute observations Sir. How do you see this basic contradiction being handled by both China and Pakistan?

 

[SrNair]

I know this will sound funny, but I believe that there is an unsound foundation to China's incredible rise. I believe that much of that rise was a recovery of lost ground, and that the policies of the CPC had little or nothing to do with it. If anything it has contributed to the degradation of the environment to a significant degree, and to the exploitation of its own people for the benefit of a handful of their citizens. In the international sphere, it has proved to be the ultimate bad neighbour; among their neighbours, friends and the sceptical are present in equal numbers.

There is also an unsound foundation in Pakistan's relations with China.

Pakistan has put its faith in China but it is a dubious proposition with little or no future. Pakistan had earlier become a member of the American camp, fully, without half-measures; it is interesting to view the contortions needed to justify a walk across to the camp of the biggest threat to US power in the world. The Pakistan marriage of convenience with the US lasted through the Afghan war; it was abandoned, felt slighted and moved to a closer relationship with China almost immediately thereafter. The original engagement lasted forty years. The new one has already lasted nearly thirty years, just to put matters in perspective. It will be interesting to see Pakistan's fate in the next fifteen years.

One of the worst aspects of Pakistan's get-together with China is the total lack of any higher principle than that of mutual self-interest and a shared hatred of a third party. Should there be a higher purpose in the 'realpolitik' world of international relations? The vast majority of analysts will disagree; I believe that the cold calculation that lies under it, however soon it is buried under a film of economic or social or geo-political virtue, vitiates it.

This in no way places Indian policies, internal or external, at a higher plane or a higher level. However, in the basic contradiction between a state founded on parochial grounds and owing allegiance to a transcendental set of beliefs, and one founded on the rights of the individual, and the sovereignty of the people, while Pakistan has chosen to be hostile to one example of this model, it has chosen to ally itself to another example (however distorted that model might be in terms of genuine representation of popular wishes and desires). This is plain contradictory, and it does not require the subtle analysis of a Mao Zedong to find it discovered in the full glare of day.

It will not be given to all of us to see the drama unfold, but some on this forum (not I) may watch the entire cycle. May you all live in interesting times.



I realised quite late that I quite agreed with the contents of this post, although my own analysis varied enormously. Thank you, Sir.

Totally agree .Pakistan's foreign policies is always revolves around rate of their hate to that third party .(their NSA mentioned that recently )
Rate will vary according to geopolitical moves ,accomplishments of that 'third' party in various field etc.
Others are just using that weakness for their benefits .Yesterday it was US, now it is China .
But US is not a cut throat money lender like that of China .
Here is why your predictions about the fate of Pakistan in next fifteen years becomes interesting .

 

[Joe Shearer]

They are working harder then both of our nations on this. Rather doubt they will succumb to corruption as easily as you see it.
Did you post your views on this topic anywhere in this thread, I rather not read through the pissing contest that is most probably the previous 9 pages unless someone mature has posted on it.

No, I haven't, actually. As you said, it is becoming increasingly distasteful to plough through the midden heap that is planted so promptly on top of every topic.

How I wish there would be an age-wise stratification of participation! And, the minute I say that, I find myself smiling broadly as I see my casteist past and the bad habits born out of that come right out into the open

About your points, they have actually been susceptible to corruption, and are in the mire already. Not much difference, I am sorry to say.

 

[Gufi]

No, I haven't, actually. As you said, it is becoming increasingly distasteful to plough through the midden heap that is planted so promptly on top of every topic.

How I wish there would be an age-wise stratification of participation! And, the minute I say that, I find myself smiling broadly as I see my casteist past and the bad habits born out of that come right out into the open

About your points, they have actually been susceptible to corruption, and are in the mire already. Not much difference, I am sorry to say.

An age wise stratification would make me in the "20 to 30s" club which would mean something akin to the chimpanzee flinging faeces as my participating group in general.
The corruption is there but the work gets done which is the difference. They connected China via high speed rail, have world class health facilities and are genuinely working towards research in many sectors, and soon you shall see medications and technological breakthroughs from the region.
Of course the nation will face corruption, of course there will be skimming of the top, but the question is will it lead to projects being delayed, or real issues in delivering as per schedule. Every nation has a level of corruption, but the subcontinent is prone to having it to a level of imaginary schools and parks etc, and I know I need not elaborate.
The issue is when one takes a few examples, and equates it to a nation which is currently building everything and anything, whether it be roads, bridges, railway lines, schools, hospitals etc....
Too much work with too little oversight, but still things get done on time without a real sharp increase in budgets. They have learnt the art of little percentages and how to skim off the top rather then come under the eye of the Government.
Again, please visit and you will see the difference in lifestyles.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Astute observations Sir. How do you see this basic contradiction being handled by both China and Pakistan?

There is one side of me, the ardent friend of decent Pakistanis, that wishes very, very hard that the minuscule sliver of liberal democrats will prevail, that democratic values tinctured by the nobler aspects of Islam will prevail.

And there is the other gloomy side............................

An age wise stratification would make me in the "20 to 30s" club which would mean something akin to the chimpanzee flinging faeces as my participating group in general.
The corruption is there but the work gets done which is the difference. They connected China via high speed rail, have world class health facilities and are genuinely working towards research in many sectors, and soon you shall see medications and technological breakthroughs from the region.
Of course the nation will face corruption, of course there will be skimming of the top, but the question is will it lead to projects being delayed, or real issues in delivering as per schedule. Every nation has a level of corruption, but the subcontinent is prone to having it to a level of imaginary schools and parks etc, and I know I need not elaborate.
The issue is when one takes a few examples, and equates it to a nation which is currently building everything and anything, whether it be roads, bridges, railway lines, schools, hospitals etc....
Too much work with too little oversight, but still things get done on time without a real sharp increase in budgets. They have learnt the art of little percentages and how to skim off the top rather then come under the eye of the Government.
Again, please visit and you will see the difference in lifestyles.

I think - I hope! - I pray that you have actually got it right and there is much that is not noticeable at the distances at which I keep a gloomy eye on things. Thank you for a much more encouraging post. We must hope, then, that these subaltern actions represent the new Pakistan, and no longer is the country condemned to be the busker for the entertainment of the deep state.

 

[VCheng]

There is one side of me, the ardent friend of decent Pakistanis, that wishes very, very hard that the minuscule sliver of liberal democrats will prevail, that democratic values tinctured by the nobler aspects of Islam will prevail.

And there is the other gloomy side.........

What can the rest of the world do to support and encourage that sliver of liberalism that still manages to exist, somehow, despite the gloom, so that it ultimately prevails? The longer present trends continue, the gloomier the picture, sadly, the present forum included.

the country condemned to be the busker for the entertainment of the deep state

I chuckled at that simile.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What can the rest of the world do to support and encourage that sliver of liberalism that still manages to exist, somehow, despite the gloom, so that it ultimately prevails? The longer present trends continue, the gloomier the picture, sadly, the present forum included.



I chuckled at that simile.

If I might make amends for the hiatus caused by two onion parathas and a portion of egg bhurji, @Gufi has made some points which are encouraging. It does seem as if he did not quite get the moral penumbra surrounding my post, which is just as well. His post was a reminder that the man in the street does not sink into a metaphysical mist every morning as he sets out to do his work, but gets on with it.

Where it did impinge on my views was to remind me and everyone else that a transcendental view of existence helps in that the individual is no longer relentlessly the measure of all that exists; something of greater moral weight is. That is why his perhaps obtuse, perhaps inflected reflection of contemporary Pakistani society and its ways becomes so interesting; he is telling us that we spend too much time on metaphysics, too little on work measurement and output measurement. The average Pakistani 'gets on' with it; that is, in his view, the salvation of Pakistan. Quite possibly so; and in an unintentionally harsh simile, when he spoke of belonging to a generation that was reduced to flinging poo as a substitute for rational argument, he also reminded us that those of us who slide into 'idealism' in the Marxian sense are also in much the same position. We are obsessed with the underlying realities of a situation where the underlying realities don't exist; we would be better off being dialectical materialists and observing what is going on in hard practical terms.

To link this back to your question, how does it seem that Pakistan and China will cope with these contradictions, it seems that the common grounds are economic and materialistic. The Chinese are committed to this view, both in cultural and in political philosophical terms; the Pakistanis, it would appear, from a distanced point of view dependent on reportage for its raw material of analysis, have grasped it, the materialistic and economy-driven world, as the reality in an otherwise hopelessly theological quagmire.

If they can keep this common ground in front of them, and if the Pakistan side does not lose its enthusiasm for prosperity and for the creation of wealth, and the Chinese side does not burn out too soon but lasts another fifty years, an eminently possible situation, both should prosper. At least for the duration. Predicting events beyond 2050 is, to my mind, meaningless.

 

[VCheng]

it seems that the common grounds are economic and materialistic.

What an insightful post! Your quote above is the key, for I therefore have great faith in that the economic interests of both sides will prevail over any theological or political philosophical considerations. The average Pakistani will get on with it, surely, if allowed to, as before.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What an insightful post! Your quote above is the key, for I therefore have great faith in that the economic interests of both sides will prevail over any theological or political philosophical considerations. The average Pakistani will get on with it, surely, if allowed to, as before.

The insights were due to your prodding and to @Gufi's hints. He is precocious, if he is a twenty-something year old.

 

[VCheng]

The insights were due to your prodding and to @Gufi's hints. He is precocious, if he is a twenty-something year old.

Sir, I do not prod anyone, but try to participate positively in an adverse environment. Members like you offer insights available nowhere else, despite the plenty of excreta being flung around.

Carrying on, do you see CPEC upsetting the monopolistic holds that have kept the average Pakistani no more than a busker (as you hinted earlier) or would broad-based economic success finally bring about the change that Pakistan so desperately needs?

 

[Gufi]

It does seem as if he did not quite get the moral penumbra surrounding my post, which is just as well.

Sir, when one goes through classical literature one sees the battle between morals and its application in the real world. The one who believes in always doing the right thing and being selfless will end up like the Prince in The Idiot. I agree that what is transpiring is not the best case scenario for us, but at the moment it is what is required.
What one needs to do is work in a Government hospital for a few years in our region and only then can one understand the real needs of the people. No one cares about foreign policy or the strings attached to deals, or the similarities or differences between ideologies, all they know is that employment will be guaranteed for a few years which will make life easier for them.
Affluence fosters idealism, while poverty breaks down the well meant arguments into what will I eat tonight... Thank you for the detailed answer, and as always, I have learnt something new from you.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir, when one goes through classical literature one sees the battle between morals and its application in the real world. The one who believes in always doing the right thing and being selfless will end up like the Prince in The Idiot. I agree that what is transpiring is not the best case scenario for us, but at the moment it is what is required.
What one needs to do is work in a Government hospital for a few years in our region and only then can one understand the real needs of the people. No one cares about foreign policy or the strings attached to deals, or the similarities or differences between ideologies, all they know is that employment will be guaranteed for a few years which will make life easier for them.
Affluence fosters idealism, while poverty breaks down the well meant arguments into what will I eat tonight... Thank you for the detailed answer, and as always, I have learnt something new from you.

The appreciation is mutual. It was interesting to consider the matter from a different perspective, the one you articulate above.

 

[somebozo]

Self appointed experts farting their mind..Politics are like ****..the more obscene you get..the more popular you become..

 

[Joe Shearer]

Self appointed experts farting their mind..Politics are like ****..the more obscene you get..the more popular you become..

Thank you so much and congratulations. Now that you have taken over the appointment of experts, there is little doubt that they will fart easier.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

That is exactly the reason why India has to take the alternate route. When you there are historical trade links, you don't block them just because its a good deal.
Now that you are taking care of your good deal, let us take care of the bad deal that we got. I would have loved to use the existing routes going via Pakistan. But if my money depends on your whims and fancies, I'd be a fool not to make proper alternate arrangements.
So this is India just taking care of its money.

Sure, wont argue with that

Self appointed experts farting their mind..Politics are like ****..the more obscene you get..the more popular you become..

They come a DIME A DOZEN here, as you and we have seen