Unironically: Could declaring Sharia Law in Pakistan solve it's insurgency problem?

[AgnosticIndian]

As someone said before, ideally it would be like this:

For those looking for an indigenous sect with a progressive outlook for Pakistan, I propose Ahl al-Qur'an led by Chakralwi from the Pakistani village of Chakral, and historically seated at Lahore.

It has been mentioned previously on forum, and there's a great book on it by Ali Usman Qasmi.

You might be declared a kaffir for Fitna-e-Inkar-e-Hadees though. But all that comes with changing sects, always. The Engineer Ali sect at Jhelam is always available as an alternative if you don't want to too far.

 

[Ssan]

And yes the point is that all of our separatist movements are ethnic or regional in nature. The reason for this is simple. People feel, rightly or wrongly, that the establishment plays ethnic favorites. And the only thing that holds this country together is the Muslim identity. Remove it from Pakistan and what exactly holds the state together? So it will not be just islamists like TTP but commie secularists like BLA. Strengthening the national narrative of muslim identity is a counter narrative to the ethnic ideas that fuel these insurgencies.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

And frankly those that think that firqah and fiqh issues are the blockers don’t understand the reality of what has already been built. We already have an Islamic advisory council that has the buy off from all the fiqhs we recognize.

The point is not about TTP per se but about the gap between what Pakistan ought to be and what it is. Closing this gap makes us less of a joke of a country and strengthens our national narrative. That goes a long way in winning peoples minds.

The reason that KPK has sympathy for Taliban is because Taliban represent the conservative Pashtun faction. The state made numerous errors in the war on terror. Allowing drone strikes that killed mainly Pashtuns- the Sharifs telling the Taliban that literally do what you want but don’t do it in Punjab- the lack of law and order in KPK- add to this the general dysfunction of the state.

That's not the reality on the ground. When is the last time you visited KP ?

Btw FYI, the difference between TTPs and ordinary Pakistanis is massive. These are known criminals, many who were abused in the Madrassahs in their childhood are now regional commanders. Their history is known to people in Waziristan and few areas of KP. Majority disgusts on even such idea to equate them with such filth.

People demonstrated & protested in KP swat recently as people are fedup with their stupid sharia implementations that people witnessed in last dark & brief period of TTP rule over swat.

Please nationals of US & UK should first better live in these areas and then better suggest sharia law. You guys living in secular countries really have audacity to pass on such ideas ? This is beyond disgusting. People of Pakistan Don't want Sharia. If we wanted, we would have it already. period.

 

[Indos]

I mean it sounds like it would work to Pakistan's favour very well, considering how insurgencies are the biggest hurdle to it's stability and prevent economic growth and internal development. They are designed this way to keep it preoccupied in endless wars.

I think this could work if Pakistan implements a meritocratic system alongside it, however I don't think this would ever happen as it would cause international outcry.

Can you imagine a nuclear armed nation, with the world's 7th largest army, declaring Sharia Law? They wouldn't just let that happen...

What do you think about OP's idea? @Indos

Indonesia does give Sharia Law (Their Sharia Islam version) to Aceh Province and makes peace agreement with them.

Shariah law that is not implemented in most Muslim world is just regarding to punishment on killing, stealing, and Zinah.

There are thousands of laws in many Muslim countries like happening in Indonesia, I dont see them as against Islamic law at all.

-------------------------------------

Here another example :

At the same time, the law regulates that a marriage between two people of different faiths is prohibited if their religions forbade them such a union. In the court’s ruling issued on Tuesday, the bench argued that the law authorised religious institutions to declare the legality of a marriage, and that the state only dealt with registering marriages that had been deemed legitimate by religious institutions in order to guarantee marital rights.


The justices thus concluded that the provisions named in the petition did not intend to harm religious freedom or the right to marry and found a family. The provisions in question “do not contradict the principles that guarantee the right of worship and belief, equality before law and government, the right to live and be free from discriminatory treatment, as well as the right to form a family and procreate", Constitutional Court justice Wahiduddin Adams read out the ruling.

The petitioner in the case is Ramos Patege, a Catholic man from Papua who had to cancel his plan to wed his Muslim partner of three years because of their different faiths.

Still no ‘freedom’ for interfaith marriages

JAKARTA (The Jakarta Post/Asia News Network): The Constitutional Court on Tuesday (Jan 31) upheld ambiguous provisions in the Marriage Law that often hinder interfaith marriages and make it hard for couples of different religions to formalise their union.

www.thestar.com.my

Indonesia raises $949 mln from Islamic bond auction​

JAKARTA, Jan 24 (Reuters) - Indonesia's finance ministry said on Tuesday that it has raised 14.15 trillion rupiah ($949.98 million) in an Islamic bond auction, higher than an indicative target of 14 trillion rupiah ($939.91 million).

Incoming bids were 28.5 trillion rupiah ($1.91 billion), it added. Most of the sukuk sold carried lower weighted average yields compared to the last auction on January 10.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/indonesia-raises-$949-mln-from-islamic-bond-auction

BSI's Two-Year Commemoration, Profit Grows Impressively 40.68 Percent to Reach Rp4.26 Trillion​

Wednesday, 1 February 2023 20:57

TRIBUNJABAR.ID, BANDUNG - PT Bank Syariah Indonesia Tbk (BSI) posted an impressive performance throughout 2022 by posting a net profit of IDR 4.26 trillion, growing 40.68 percent on an annual basis (yoy).

This achievement is the highest profit in the history of the establishment of Islamic banks in Indonesia.

https://jabar.tribunnews.com/2023/0...mbuh-impresif-4068-persen-capai-rp426-triliun.

 

[TheSolution]

For those looking for an indigenous sect with a progressive outlook for Pakistan, I propose Ahl al-Qur'an led by Chakralwi from the Pakistani village of Chakral, and historically seated at Lahore.View attachment 914481
It has been mentioned previously on forum, and there's a great book on it by Ali Usman Qasmi.

You might be declared a kaffir for Fitna-e-Inkar-e-Hadees though. But all that comes with changing sects, always. The Engineer Ali sect at Jhelam is always available as an alternative if you don't want to too far.

Respectfully I wouldn't trust anything Islamic that comes out of Lahore

 

[Mirzali Khan]

Please hear out my explanation below and then give your opinion.

The main insurgent groups in Pakistan are the TTP, followed by minor ethnonationalist groups like the BLA network. The TTP especially finds a lot of sympathy and support within Pakistani society, and is the most powerful destabilising element.

The reason for this can be linked back to Pakistan sitting on the fence with it's Islamic identity, it claims itself to be an Islamic state while having a practising Muslim majority population > 96%, but doesn't have have an integral governance structure of Islam. The Sharia Law.

So when a militant group comes along claiming to want to implement Sharia Law, people are subconsciously sympathetic towards them, because that's what an Islamic state inherently requires, and they don't see it present in Pakistan, no matter how much they are pro-state.

(A lot of the time this militant group has covert goals unrelated to Islam, for example the TTP is more of a Pashtun tribal insurgency hence it focuses on the FATA merger reversal, and is also labelled as a criminal organisation which extorts locals for money. The Sharia Law aspect is only used a selling point in society to gain support, but many people don't realise this)

So my question is, if Pakistan fully embraces it's Islamic identity without sitting on the fence, and makes Sharia Law official, it could fully gain back control and the state narrative would reign supreme.

Instantly any group that picks up arms against the state can confidently be labelled as Khawarijs, it will have the full support and trust of the people and their sympathies towards any militant groups will disappear immediately.

The state will have regained full control and the narrative will completely be on it's side against any group, including ethnonationalist groups.

Should Pakistan implement Sharia Law to get rid of all these destabilising elements and have the ability to crush down on them hard with a powerful narrative? Any insurgent group would become powerless in it's narrative.

If you're a Muslim, which the majority of Pakistan is, this should not be as a problem to you should it? If you believe in Islam then surely you believe in your God's governance system.

@Sayfullah @Mirzali Khan @villageidiot @Menace2Society @SaadH @kingQamaR @Areesh @Signalian @epebble @_NOBODY_ @PanzerKiel @hussain0216 @R2D2 @Al_Muhannad @akramishaqkhan @AZMwi @Great Janjua @Olympus81 @COOKie LOOkie....

Joylandistani elite will never let that happen.

Children of elite in overseas look down upon Islam and poor Pakistani people.

 

[TheSolution]

And yes the point is that all of our separatist movements are ethnic or regional in nature. The reason for this is simple. People feel, rightly or wrongly, that the establishment plays ethnic favorites. And the only thing that holds this country together is the Muslim identity. Remove it from Pakistan and what exactly holds the state together? So it will not be just islamists like TTP but commie secularists like BLA. Strengthening the national narrative of muslim identity is a counter narrative to the ethnic ideas that fuel these insurgencies.

This is one of the many reasons I suggested the above.

It has a berth of benefits, and that's simply because Pakistan at its core is founded upon Islam.

 

[Ssan]

That's not the reality on the ground. When is the last time you visited KP ?

Btw FYI, the difference between TTPs and ordinary Pakistanis is massive. These are known criminals, many who were abused in the Madrassahs in their childhood are now regional commanders. Their history is known to people in Waziristan and few areas of KP. Majority disgusts on even such idea to equate them with such filth.

People demonstrated & protested in KP swat recently as people are fedup with their stupid sharia implementations that people witnessed in last dark & brief period of TTP rule over swat.

I mean I think the majority are disgusted by it. And the fringe is not necessarily rational to support TTP. I am just highlighting various grievances that explain why there is support for TTP in the first place. Yes majority of KPK, much less Pakistan, cannot stomach the sort of Islamic law that he Taliban have brought in Afghanistan. That does not mean the majority of us does not want an Islamic law

 

[TheSolution]

So far the arguments I hear AGAINST it is that:

- There will be infighting regarding what laws are actually the correct laws. Interpretation disagreements.

Personally I think this is a non-issue since TTP is much worse than any interpretation disagreements that could occur.

- It will stagnate any arts, scientific and technological advancements and research - taking us to the stone age.

I fail to see how, as long as you continue investment into quality education and STEM focused universities. It should be explicitly encouraged to strengthen the power of the state. I guess this depends on the sect of Islam?

- Most people are against the establishment of Sharia Law. (Is there any study on this for Pakistan?)

Sounds very untrue, I think I remember reading a survey which stated the opposite.

- TTP would take over the government easily.

If the national government is strong with strong institutions that can hold proper dialogues I don't think so.

There should be policies that we structure our laws around. Things like keeping up with scientific and technological research. Positive foreign policy wherever possible. Female education especially in areas where women are required in daily life.

These should be core policies.

 

[villageidiot]

It should be an internalised version, that also incorporates and respects local cultures.

It should allow arts, local traditional architecture, scientific and technological advancements to flourish.

Yes, local traditions should be incorporated. Corruption should be legal and like zakat, bribery should be mandated.

Islam with a meritocratic structure is the only viable one.

No, that's the old Islam. The new one with Pakistani flavor and culture should go full throttle for nepotism and baradri-ism

 

[Imran Khan]

if you impose sharia then you have to behead all taliban and most of mullahs as per law .

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

I mean I think the majority are disgusted by it. And the fringe is not necessarily rational to support TTP. I am just highlighting various grievances that explain why there is support for TTP in the first place. Yes majority of KPK, much less Pakistan, cannot stomach the sort of Islamic law that he Taliban have brought in Afghanistan. That does not mean the majority of us does not want an Islamic law

Just telling with my interactions and experience, I can bet 99% of Sindh & Baluchistan, 80% of Punjab DO NOT WANT Sharia. I have spent 40 years of my life in various major cities of the country. In KP the demographics are completely different from region to region. For instance 100% of Gilgit NEVER want anything even remotely close to Sharia. But there are few regions where people still would want to have it. I would disagree that majority wants Sharia. Nope it do not. You can see from election results.. Never islamic parties win comes in top 3. PTI, PMLN, PPP are the 3 main parites .. none of them have ever said about islamic law. Otherwise they will lose their support INSTANTLY. Only party which promises for islamic law is Jamaat-e-Islami.. The kind or percentage of support it has actually reflects the number of people who want sharia in this country.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The country's governing institutions and laws are a reflection of both its people and its ruling elite. If our ruling elite were accustomed to independence, sincerity, and God-fearing-ness, then the 'system' will reflect it. So, when talking about Shariah in Pakistan, we have to go back to when Islam was properly established as a system of rule (from nothing) the last time -- in Madina.

Though idol worshippers, the Aws and Khazraj in Madina did embody the good qualities above (i.e., independence, sincerity, and God-fearing-ness).

In fact, some among the Aws and Khazraj were already seeking Rasul'Allah (SAW). Some years after the Bu'ath and before Hijrah, the Yahood told Aws and Khazraj about the upcoming prophet and stuff. The Aws and Khazraj wanted to meet the new prophet before the Yahood did.

Even in state of Kufr, the Aws and Khazraj were genuinely good people, especially the leaders. When Mus'ab ibn Umair (RA) started propagating Islam in Madina, Saad ibn Muadh (RA) wanted to stop him because he feared Mus'ab was a snake oil salesman.

On the other hand, there was another tribe that wanted to give authority to Rasul'Allah (SAW) and Islam. But they had a catch. They told Rasul'Allah (SAW) that after he (SAW) passes away, the ruling authority should go to their tribe. Rasul'Allah (SAW) basically told them to get lost.

So, overall, we see from these cases that there is a bar for giving leadership to people. It's not just about Shariah or Islam, but leadership in general (be it religious or secular). We need to recognize that the ones ruling Pakistan aren't sincere, aren't independent, and aren't God-fearing. If they were, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation (either we'd have our Shariah or the situation under the secular rule would be so much better that we wouldn't even think about it).

Frankly, unless our leadership categorically changes, any claim about Shariah from them is 110% fake. They'll find some Lalu Khed maulvi sahib and call him Amir, chop some hands, mandate burqa, and call it a day. These "leaders" of ours will do as much damage to Islam as Da'ish did. This is why this discussion of "should we have Shariah" isn't a complete discussion.

The real question should be is, "when will we get rid of our ruling elite?"

 

[villageidiot]

Only if you let them. To what extent this influence works, or not, is ALWAYS up to Pakistan itself.

You seem thoroughly convinced that Pakistan has acquired Thanos's gauntlet.

 

[Ssan]

Just telling with my interactions and experience, I can bet 99% of Sindh & Baluchistan, 80% of Punjab DO NOT WANT Sharia. I have spent 40 years of my life in various major cities of the country. In KP the demographics are completely different from region to region. For instance 100% of Gilgit NEVER want anything even remotely close to Sharia. But there are few regions where people still would want to have it. I would disagree that majority wants Sharia. Nope it do not. You can see from election results.. Never islamic parties win comes in top 3. PTI, PMLN, PPP are the 3 main parites .. none of them have ever said about islamic law. Otherwise they will lose their support INSTANTLY.

It depends on how you ask/ say it. If you say shariah and they imagine taliban version of sharia- then yes no one wants that. If you say Islam and Muslims law then majority do want it. From my own sampling which may be biased.