UK foreign ministry to raise issue of treatment of minorities with Pakistan

[MultaniGuy]

Umm, I have said this before and I will repeat myself again. My time here on PDF is academic, I wish to interact and learn about the Pakistani thought process behind certain drivers. This is not a US and Them game as you are making out in your post.

You speak about "let us deal with our own back yard", part of my role is working closely with organisations like Tell Mama so I do know what is going on in the U.K and actually do my part in countering hate speech and violent extremism in the United Kingdom.

At present I would like to learn from Pakistanis why is it that there is a selective approach to protection of faith but not of cultural identity? You are free to interject so long as it drives this existing trust of the original question forward without further deviation.

@dsr478 you sound most reasonable, please explain can you protect the faith and ignore the cultural aspects of the Kalash people. Or would you agree with @Iqbal Ali that should Kalash convert they would remain Kalash but become "Muslim" Kalash?

If that were the case then once the Kalash were all Muslim, there would be no reason to celebrate the festival of Choimus which is a pagan festival and idolatry is forbidden in Islam. It would also mean that the house temples would need to be desecrated and overall would diminish a very vibrant and beautiful culture from human history.

You are free ofcourse to correct me or add your own narrative so that I may better understand your reasoning.

Cheers!



So the grievances of the Baloch people are baseless?

I said if all the Kalash convert to Islam by their own choice, then where is the need to protect their "Pagan beliefs and practices."

If there are Kalash who are still pagan, they have the right to practice their beliefs as a minority in Pakistan.

 

[Hamza913]

@dsr478 you sound most reasonable, please explain can you protect the faith and ignore the cultural aspects of the Kalash people. Or would you agree with @Iqbal Ali that should Kalash convert they would remain Kalash but become "Muslim" Kalash?

If that were the case then once the Kalash were all Muslim, there would be no reason to celebrate the festival of Choimus which is a pagan festival and idolatry is forbidden in Islam. It would also mean that the house temples would need to be desecrated and overall would diminish a very vibrant and beautiful culture from human history.

You are free ofcourse to correct me or add your own narrative so that I may better understand your reasoning.

Cheers!

If the Kalash convert wholesale (a lot of them are already becoming Muslim so this seems pretty likely) then they would most likely adopt Islam, but keep their Kalash culture. After a while, some parts of it may slowly be removed from their culture but in all probability a large amount of it will still remain (unless the Kalash community decides to mix with other ethnic groups).

I would prefer that if they did convert to Islam, they completely purge their culture of anything haram, but very few (if any) other Pakistani ethnic groups have done that even though we've been Muslim much longer, so I doubt they will either.

So the grievances of the Baloch people are baseless?

No, but it's less to do with them being Baluchi and more to do with just plain old corrupt management.

 

[Wolfhunter]

If the Kalash convert wholesale (a lot of them are already becoming Muslim so this seems pretty likely) then they would most likely adopt Islam, but keep their Kalash culture. After a while, some parts of it may slowly be removed from their culture but in all probability a large amount of it will still remain (unless the Kalash community decides to mix with other ethnic groups).

I would prefer that if they did convert to Islam, they completely purge their culture of anything haram, but very few (if any) other Pakistani ethnic groups have done that even though we've been Muslim much longer, so I doubt they will either.



No, but it's less to do with them being Baluchi and more to do with just plain old corrupt management.

Okay, now I understand what your are trying to say, but would you not agree that this disbanding of centuries old culture and practice would be overall detrimental to the diversity and cultural strength of Pakistan, afterall travelling to Taxila and D.I Khan you can see ruins of Hindu temples such as Kafir Kot and these add beauty and mystery to the land do they not?

And should the Kalash all convert and become Muslim and abolish their pagan culture, beliefs and temples, would it stop with them or would it extend to the tiny Sikh, Christian and Hindu population as well?

 

[Divergent]

Umm, I have said this before and I will repeat myself again. My time here on PDF is academic, I wish to interact and learn about the Pakistani thought process behind certain drivers. This is not a US and Them game as you are making out in your post.

You speak about "let us deal with our own back yard", part of my role is working closely with organisations like Tell Mama so I do know what is going on in the U.K and actually do my part in countering hate speech and violent extremism in the United Kingdom.

At present I would like to learn from Pakistanis why is it that there is a selective approach to protection of faith but not of cultural identity? You are free to interject so long as it drives this existing trust of the original question forward without further deviation.

@dsr478 you sound most reasonable, please explain can you protect the faith and ignore the cultural aspects of the Kalash people. Or would you agree with @Iqbal Ali that should Kalash convert they would remain Kalash but become "Muslim" Kalash?

If that were the case then once the Kalash were all Muslim, there would be no reason to celebrate the festival of Choimus which is a pagan festival and idolatry is forbidden in Islam. It would also mean that the house temples would need to be desecrated and overall would diminish a very vibrant and beautiful culture from human history.

You are free ofcourse to correct me or add your own narrative so that I may better understand your reasoning.

Cheers!

The thought process on here is pretty narrow minded but doesn’t represent the whole Nation just as Britain’s First doesn’t represent Britain - it’s the internet. There’s a lot I do too to counter terrorism or help take out those who finance it but that’s something I won’t go into on a public forum.

I once was very against Blasphemy Laws and I still am in all fairness, however Pakistan has now also launched a new law which means anyone who accuses someone of false blasphemy or untrue allegations will also meet the equivalent fate of a lifetime death. This therefore deters false accusations. On the other hand till date The State hasn’t actually Issued ‘death sentence’. It’s just a law sat on shelf.

Pakistan has also got a Dalit Hindu as part of their political party, the first female PM which after the UK no other Western State has achieved. First woman pilot.

Deepak Perwani a Pakistani Hindu designer who showcases the beautiful art and culture of the Country through his work.

Okay, now I understand what your are trying to say, but would you not agree that this disbanding of centuries old culture and practice would be overall detrimental to the diversity and cultural strength of Pakistan, afterall travelling to Taxila and D.I Khan you can see ruins of Hindu temples such as Kafir Kot and these add beauty and mystery to the land do they not?

And should the Kalash all convert and become Muslim and abolish their pagan culture, beliefs and temples, would it stop with them or would it extend to the tiny Sikh, Christian and Hindu population as well?

Omg you’re actually not taking this extremist seriously are you. For Pete’s sake.

 

[Wolfhunter]

The thought process on here is pretty narrow minded but doesn’t represent the whole Nation just as Britain’s First doesn’t represent Britain - it’s the internet. There’s a lot I do too to counter terrorism or help take out those who finance it but that’s something I won’t go into on a public forum.

I once was very against Blasphemy Laws and I still am in all fairness, however Pakistan has now also launched a new law which means anyone who accuses someone of false blasphemy or untrue allegations will also meet the equivalent fate of a lifetime death. This therefore deters false accusations. On the other hand till date The State hasn’t actually Issued ‘death sentence’. It’s just a law sat on shelf.

Pakistan has also got a Dalit Hindu as part of their political party, the first female PM which after the UK no other Western State has achieved. First woman pilot.

Deepak Perwani a Pakistani Hindu designer who showcases the beautiful art and culture of the Country through his work.



Omg you’re actually not taking this extremist seriously are you. For Pete’s sake.

Yes that all great, but what is the main reason for people to believe in "purging" the "stranger". I know the EU and UK narrative of mass immigration, poorly educated reprobates taken advantage of silver tonged serpents like Farrage and Robinson, but scratch the surface and you see that they all converge at the same apex.

In Pakistan is it purely the religious leaders and their followers/supporters and sympathiers or is it much larger, I have spoken to perfectly well educated Pakistani elite who also support a very toxic narrative, so I want to learn more.

And the Internet is the best place to do so, because the presumed veil of anonymity allows you to get the "truth" people wouldn't normally reveal in person.

Omg you’re actually not taking this extremist seriously are you. For Pete’s sake.

Again, this is part of my questioning process, would be nice if you didn't interrupt. For someone who is engaged in Forensic accounting, your investigative interviewing is poor to say the least.

 

[Divergent]

Yes that all great, but what is the main reason for people to believe in "purging" the "stranger". I know the EU and UK narrative of mass immigration, poorly educated reprobates taken advantage of silver tonged serpents like Farrage and Robinson, but scratch the surface and you see that they all converge at the same apex.

In Pakistan is it purely the religious leaders and their followers/supporters and sympathiers or is it much larger, I have spoken to perfectly well educated Pakistani elite who also support a very toxic narrative, so I want to learn more.

And the Internet is the best place to do so, because the presumed veil of anonymity allows you to get the "truth" people wouldn't normally reveal in person.



Again, this is part of my questioning process, would be nice if you didn't interrupt. For someone who is engaged in Forensic accounting, your investigative interviewing is poor to say the least.

I’ve visited the Country a few times and the ground reality is far from what meets the eye. The truth is the internet makes it look a lot more conservative than it actually is, I’ve travelled alone. Stayed in apartments to carry out work and I assure you the service I got there was probably a lot better than my Spain Costa Bravo vacation. Except the beach ofcourse

 

[Hamza913]

Okay, now I understand what your are trying to say, but would you not agree that this disbanding of centuries old culture and practice would be overall detrimental to the diversity and cultural strength of Pakistan, afterall travelling to Taxila and D.I Khan you can see ruins of Hindu temples such as Kafir Kot and these add beauty and mystery to the land do they not?

And should the Kalash all convert and become Muslim and abolish their pagan culture, beliefs and temples, would it stop with them or would it extend to the tiny Sikh, Christian and Hindu population as well?

The Kalash culture should be documented for academic purposes, but I see no harm in them abandoning it if they wish to do so.

Hindu temples and what not are in ruins because of the frequent Muslim-Kafir wars of the sub-continent. The Kalash are not having a war with us, therefore, their artefacts would and should be preserved in a museum so long as they are halal. If they are not halal, then we should make them halal (e.g smashing the faces of statues) and then preserve them. However, I'm sceptical of Pakistani historians doing the last step.

I would prefer for them to become Muslim, but if they wish to remain as Kafirs I have no problem, so long as they abide by the laws of the country. Same with every other minority in Pakistan.

If they did become Muslim, I would hope for them to reject any haram aspects of their culture wholesale, but I doubt they would. Same for every other minority in Pakistan.

 

[TMA]

They're British most are fourth generation now. Your post is stupid beyond belief.

Even if they are fortieth generation they will never be real Britons...unless they marry into the British nation(s)...

You nailed it ! If the Kalash convert to Islam that their choice. Its not like they are not Kalash anymore. They just lost their pagan faith and accepted Islam.

Just like many of our ancestors converted from whatever they followed. They did not just turn into Arabs or Persians or Turks (although recently many Pakistanis in the UK at least don't get this...)

Okay, now I understand what your are trying to say, but would you not agree that this disbanding of centuries old culture and practice would be overall detrimental to the diversity and cultural strength of Pakistan, afterall travelling to Taxila and D.I Khan you can see ruins of Hindu temples such as Kafir Kot and these add beauty and mystery to the land do they not?

And should the Kalash all convert and become Muslim and abolish their pagan culture, beliefs and temples, would it stop with them or would it extend to the tiny Sikh, Christian and Hindu population as well?

Nope Islam would make their culture even more beautiful, just like it made Persia's better and Land of the Indus's better (there is still a lot of work to be done though.... a lot!)

 

[Divergent]

The Kalash culture should be documented for academic purposes, but I see no harm in them abandoning it if they wish to do so.

Hindu temples and what not are in ruins because of the frequent Muslim-Kafir wars of the sub-continent. The Kalash are not having a war with us, therefore, their artefacts would and should be preserved in a museum so long as they are halal. If they are not halal, then we should make them halal (e.g smashing the faces of statues) and then preserve them. However, I'm sceptical of Pakistani historians doing the last step.

I would prefer for them to become Muslim, but if they wish to remain as Kafirs I have no problem, so long as they abide by the laws of the country. Same with every other minority in Pakistan.

If they did become Muslim, I would hope for them to reject any haram aspects of their culture wholesale, but I doubt they would. Same for every other minority in Pakistan.

And who decides the Halal and Haram, you? You need to keep your version as an opinion and not state it is a fact.

 

[Hamza913]

And who decides the Halal and Haram, you? You need to keep your version as an opinion and not state it is a fact.

Statues are unanimously regarded as haram.

Our religion isn't like play dough that can be moulded to fit whatever shape someone wants, by that logic Al Qaeda and ISIS are fine as their Islam is just another interpretation.

Most of our rules are fixed and non negotiable. Logic like yours leads to extremism.

 

[Divergent]

Statues are unanimously regarded as haram.

Our religion isn't like play dough that can be moulded to fit whatever shape someone wants, by that logic Al Qaeda and ISIS are fine as their Islam is just another interpretation.

Most of our rules are fixed and non negotiable. Logic like yours leads to extremism.

Extremism and I are the two complete opposites. Respect other people’s beliefs.

 

[Hamza913]

Extremism and I are the two complete opposites. Respect other people’s beliefs.

You and extremists are only opposite in your conclusions. Your methods are almost identical, which should concern you.

I haven't disrespected anyone's beliefs.

 

[Nalini]

Perhaps if you had bothered to read my introduction post, I am a post graduate student on Criminology and Terrorism studies at a U.K university, part of my study is understanding the causal nature of extremist violence ideology in South Asia and Central Asia.

I am also a certified Anti Terrorism Officer qualified from the S2 Safety and Intelligence Institute in Florida. I have been a guest of Pakistan government where I spent time with your Police force and Anti Terrorism Police to better understand the challenges faced by Pakistanis:

This is a picture of me with Guards and officers of Islamabad Police and Instructors from the Anti Terrorist Force.
View attachment 458662

I am not a white supremacist nor am I an Indian. I really do appreciate Pakistan and Pakistanis but also am critical of things Pakistan is doing which is harming it's image and ability to achieve it's full potential!



So are you saying that the Kalash and their way of life is NOT under threat and that the UN and UNESCO is making all this up?

Pakistan keeps thinking it can have normal relation with Afghanistan, Iran but not with India. Even if China is exploiting them they are willing to sell their country just for their hatred of Hindu India.

They don’t want to come to terms, things are going to only intensify, till the day Pakistan decides to make peace with India. By the time it will be too late. People just show their heroics in such forums, but in practical nobody wants to seriously see, Pakistan is getting deeper & deeper in trouble & the world is ganging up, one by one to strangulate Pakistan.

Unless the common man questions the policy of hostility with India, & put a sincere & immediate effort to stop it, the political & Military establishment will only keep pushing the country in to more chaos & finally towards riots, civil war & break up. India is in a far better position than Pakistan, so you have to surrender to save your misery. I am not saying this because I am a India, because these are facts.

And there will definitely be another terrorist attack in UK this year itself I fee & when it happens, mark my words there will be people, who will come out on streets for protest in large numbers. It will give birth to many Geert Wilders across Europe. Teresa May will be under immense pressure & in dilemma, how to deal with the situation & she will be forced to put a ban on Muslim immigration & it will also lead to slow deportation of the immigrants from Europe. This is going to grip Germany & through out the world. But the fears of Muslims are just only going to turn in to more bitterness & hatred with every terror attack & this will have an effect on Pakistan, worse if there is any connection established to Pakistan to these attacks.

 

[Divergent]

You and extremists are only opposite in your conclusions. Your methods are almost identical, which should concern you.

I haven't disrespected anyone's beliefs.

Firstly no. Secondly no and lastly no.

 

[Hamza913]

Firstly no. Secondly no and lastly no.

Uh yes, yes and yes.

You both make your own interpretations of Islam, completely ignoring the 1400 year history of what scholars have said about the religion, only difference one of you is more popular than the other since the modern world prefers you guys to them.

Please prove where I have insulted someone else's beliefs.