UAE, Pakistan and Mirage 2000-9s

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well the MiRAGE 2000-9 since are 50% used I would imagine it would be reflected in the price , obviously flying in desert area is bad for some parts and engine etc , so I would not imagine it would be more then 60% less then asking price

The UAE desert environment is really bad for engines and all internals etc

I am sure once we (if we get it) we will have to perhaps evaluate the internals , do some service (if we get this plane which I doubt)

Its just better business to go for new planes but if Airforce has some plans in mind we will see

It would just be a short term deal (if we get it or if it materializes , which I am sure can only happen once we have credible source)

Pakistan does have Engineering capability to restore performance and ability of plane so may be the deal works (who knows, if it happens of course)

• Obviously going for the J-31 , brand new plane , full of new features and exciting new platform (Obvious choice for PAF)

 

[ghazi768]

For the statement you have made you have my heartfelt sympathies. Just to update you, the M2k-9 stands for Mirage2000-9 built by Dassault of France, and NOT the UAE Air Force.

Btw, our first four Air Chiefs were Pakistani, we have always had trainers / instructors form PAF, either on deputation, or on contracts. So if they haven't imparted any knowledge, or refined our air war doctrines, then it is a sad day for PAF, and Pakistanis as a whole, as well. Please accept my heartfelt condolences.

Do not forget to let the PAF know, that since the M2k-9 "does not inspire trust in you," you would rather not see it in PAF colors, IF an opportunity arises.

I sincerely believe that you should not take a few comments to heart, there are all kinds of characters on these forums and some comments I read on this thread addressing you are despicable to say the least.

But I also sincerely believe that we should tamper our enthusiasm for M2Ks.. M2Ks are excellent aircraft and there's always a room for a squadron or two, actually we may be short by one in TS role after refusal from USA. but because of the reasons I mentioned earlier, I do not see much of a chance and do not believe that PAF should seriously look into acquiring them.

As a Pakistani I think that unless there are strong reasons and immediate threats to do otherwise, it is better for us to have a home grown solution for strike role, custom built for what we need, rather than having a disparate set of platforms, all in small quantities with difficult, inflexible logistics to manage. For example to keep availability up, if you have experience with such operations, what will you do? an extra six set? for wartime contingencies and alternative base of operations? extra kits for spare diagnostics? and what about staff? and will all these still compare with extra synergies achieved with a unified platform?
And what about other questions.. such as do you believe French will be even ready to integrate Raad? they are off-course MTCR and NSG members.. will they be ready to bite this bullet for some proceeds from around 50 M2Ks?

And also because I believe that there are guys on these forum with very sinister agenda, may be tasked with disinformation campaigns. And the way most Pakistani users visiting these forums are, novices at best, they can be exploited more by building up expectations and than exploited later..

 

[araz]

Sir,
1) Are these still available?
2) If cost was $60 million in 2002 what would they approximately cost today?

Just thinking loud...
With F-16 blk 15 out, do you think PAF might increase the numbers if M2K's are selected?

Initially PAF wanted to have 110-150 F-16's. PAF has aprox 70 F-16's which would be used for strike roles and JF-17 for point defence.

Now replacing Mirage III/V and PN wanting medium to heavy category aircraft, 100-120 could be possible.

Keeping in view PAF is to replace 190 aircraft and JF-17's being developed till block 4 (200 aircraft).

They have not been sold to anyone. I cant in all honesty say whether they have not been used up as spares. I still maintain that the m2k ERA HAS COME AND GONE. It is time to move on. It is important to assess what we have in front of us. j10 B/C/D are round the corner, and yet PAF has shown no interest in them. WHY?? We may have our eyes on something else.????
F16s are a bonus , if we get them cheap enough well and good otherwise we are not fussed. So the question is what is our plan for procurement? I think the JFT has exceeded expectations as its expected upgrades has given us a platform which is capable of holding its own against any platform. However the problems get compounded with the upgrades of M2Ks, MKIs and the rafale induction. PAF assumes Rafale induction to be completed in 2021-22 bracket. MKI and M2K upgrades will come on line in 2018-20 bracket (my estimate therefore feel free to disagree/correct). In my view PAF feels it has 3 yrs to counter the modernization spree and 6 yrs for the newer acquisitions.
As to the former it is a question of modernization of JFT with AESA and better armaments(PL15??). I would have liked to see the same done with the 16s but that is not going to be possible so we will have to rely on the 16s and their cover by AWACS.Perhaps if we are lucky AIM 120Dand 9X.
As to the countering of the Rafale we need a generation boost to overcome the huge advantage that the rafale induction would give to the IAF.I dont think the 16s are the answer here and JFTs would be found lacking as well, due to range loitering time and other issues. The answer lies in a fifth generation platform. Where that comes from is another issue and the likely provider is China and the most likely replacement platform is J31.
A

 

[Centurion2016]

The options to counter rafale are limited to j31at best by 2025.

Or j10. Now to 2024

Anything else you discuss like su35/typhoons and f15 etc are fantasy.

It will be chinease only or used falcons

That's startegy will not change as there is no viability to do anything else.

Trump Oscars isolationist he will give nothing to any one even the uk.

 

[Centurion2016]

The thread started after passing comment from a Pakistani General suggesting that when UAE decided to sell their mirages when the rafale deal.is signed that Pakistan may consider buying them .

What people do not realise UAE are five years away from signing and getting rafales.

People thought like they are guranteed to come and come soon or next year.

Which is million miles from truth

It's actually a very good plane Pakistanis are hoping to get them for cheap hence the excitement.

 

[-BAJWA-]

After visit of Prince of UAE to New Delhi and "papyian and Japhian" of Modi, everyone should realize the shift of relations in the region so in current scenario, it is impossible for PAF to get those M-2000s and i think PAF is more focused on JFT rather than collecting jets from all over the world.

 

[Centurion2016]

PAF has a imment need for a hi end late fourth generation or a fifth generation fighter to answer the rafale threat effectively.

PAF still has not effectively answered the current threat of 225 su30mki that is relevant now this very second . A threat that will rise to 272 fighters and follow a massive mlu programme to add area radars and betters sensors and we suites to fifth generation level.

Ask your selves seventy odd falcons and similar no if light weight single engines thunders is PAF strategy to tackle the massive flanker threat.

This threat is further compunded by mirage2000/5 upgrades and over 100 mig29 in navy and air force.

 

[Centurion2016]

When you have a serious look at what threats are emerging and you start to analyse PAF conversations or assessment of used falcons or used miragess you do ask yourselves are they serious about challenging the enemy with these solutions.

What do PAF hope to achieve with used falcons

Surely the need is 100 block 52,now that can add serious punch for next two decades

Used falcons shows how little faith there is the thunders .
if the thunders had a real road map to extensive upgrades you will not be shopping for peoples obselete fighters

 

[ziaulislam]

When you have a serious look at what threats are emerging and you start to analyse PAF conversations or assessment of used falcons or used miragess you do ask yourselves are they serious about challenging the enemy with these solutions.

What do PAF hope to achieve with used falcons

Surely the need is 100 block 52,now that can add serious punch for next two decades

Used falcons shows how little faith there is the thunders .
if the thunders had a real road map to extensive upgrades you will not be shopping for peoples obselete fighters

can you please spit out 12-14 billion dollars

 

[TOPGUN]

When you have a serious look at what threats are emerging and you start to analyse PAF conversations or assessment of used falcons or used miragess you do ask yourselves are they serious about challenging the enemy with these solutions.

What do PAF hope to achieve with used falcons

Surely the need is 100 block 52,now that can add serious punch for next two decades

Used falcons shows how little faith there is the thunders .
if the thunders had a real road map to extensive upgrades you will not be shopping for peoples obselete fighters

Why are you so concerned ? don't worry about it ............. are you and storm force related ? lolz

 

[The SC]

After visit of Prince of UAE to New Delhi and "papyian and Japhian" of Modi, everyone should realize the shift of relations in the region so in current scenario, it is impossible for PAF to get those M-2000s and i think PAF is more focused on JFT rather than collecting jets from all over the world.

And because the Chinese president visited China, it was impossible of buying anything from China? Is this your logic?

The options to counter rafale are limited to j31at best by 2025.

Or j10. Now to 2024

Anything else you discuss like su35/typhoons and f15 etc are fantasy.

It will be chinease only or used falcons

That's startegy will not change as there is no viability to do anything else.

Trump Oscars isolationist he will give nothing to any one even the uk.

The episode is quite famous because in late December of the same year the French Ministry of Defense released the captures taken by the Rafale’s OSF (Optronique Secteur Frontal) showing an F-22 in aerial combat. In fact, although the U.S. Air Force pilots told that their plane was undefeated during the exercise, the French were killed once in six 1 vs 1 WVR (Within Visual Range) engagements versus the F-22 (the other 5 ended with a “draw”) and one Raptor was claimed as killed by a UAE Mirage 2000 during a mock engagement.

Here’s the famous capture released at the time and published for the first time by Air & Cosmos magazine.


https://theaviationist.com/2012/04/30/iran-f-22/

 

[Centurion2016]

Their simple reason why French fighters and missiles cost so much.

Be it mirage 2000.and mica

Or rafale with spectra and mica meteore

THEY are lethel and they work

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

what are you smoking....

this is not even must best case scenrio lol

by 2025 if we are extremely look we might get to 150(highly unlikely will require 2-3 billion dollars investment)
200 Jf-17 yes we would probably reach tehre
M2K not coming

Sir,
Not smoking anything except polluted air.

150-200 Jf-17's are required to replace F-7s. Historically PAF has liked to keep two western and two eastern platforms. If we keep this tradition then JF-17's and F-7PG's would remain till 5th gen is available.

M2K was to replace Mirage III/V and F1's. M2K-9 being the most advanced version bearing most of the technologies of the Rafale would bring a new spectrum to the JF-17 program. Something countries using Mirages would like to see in the JF-17.

Rafales and EFT are out of question. SU-35 and J-11 is also out of question. This leaves F-16's, M2K and Gripen as the single engine options. F-16's and Gripen are out of question this leaves only one option M2K's, now the only problem is price and specification.

PAF would not opt for the J-31 till China guaranties it would also induct it. This new aircraft would mature not before 2025-2030 some thing PAF can not afford with the Indian's rapidly increasing their 4.5++ aircraft.

Well since folks brought the case of Best case scenario well , if I had a choice here is what I would have preferred

• 150 JF-17 Thunder , Block 3 Joint Program with China, possible Block 4 Upgrade
  
• 100 F-16 Block C/D
  
• 40 J-31 (First Export Outside of China)
  
• 40 Typhoons or 40 Rafale or 40 J-11 or 50 Mirage 2000-9 or 40 Sukhoi-35
  
• 5th Generation Joint Program with Turkey (Might need some initiative from Government/Military to kick start things)

This would be sufficient till 2022 planning , with assumption that Mirage 3/5 retired and F-7PG retired.


*Retirement of 190 planes and Induction of about 165 planes

Going above the figure would be over kill

You want only 290-300 4 - 4.5 gen aircraft? This is no best case scenario.

Some on said FC31 will start LRIP at year 2019, and already has first user.

Even though it is being fast tracked for 2019 but it would not have evolved till 2025-2027 at the earliest.

They have not been sold to anyone. I cant in all honesty say whether they have not been used up as spares. I still maintain that the m2k ERA HAS COME AND GONE. It is time to move on. It is important to assess what we have in front of us. j10 B/C/D are round the corner, and yet PAF has shown no interest in them. WHY?? We may have our eyes on something else.????
F16s are a bonus , if we get them cheap enough well and good otherwise we are not fussed. So the question is what is our plan for procurement? I think the JFT has exceeded expectations as its expected upgrades has given us a platform which is capable of holding its own against any platform. However the problems get compounded with the upgrades of M2Ks, MKIs and the rafale induction. PAF assumes Rafale induction to be completed in 2021-22 bracket. MKI and M2K upgrades will come on line in 2018-20 bracket (my estimate therefore feel free to disagree/correct). In my view PAF feels it has 3 yrs to counter the modernization spree and 6 yrs for the newer acquisitions.
As to the former it is a question of modernization of JFT with AESA and better armaments(PL15??). I would have liked to see the same done with the 16s but that is not going to be possible so we will have to rely on the 16s and their cover by AWACS.Perhaps if we are lucky AIM 120Dand 9X.
As to the countering of the Rafale we need a generation boost to overcome the huge advantage that the rafale induction would give to the IAF.I dont think the 16s are the answer here and JFTs would be found lacking as well, due to range loitering time and other issues. The answer lies in a fifth generation platform. Where that comes from is another issue and the likely provider is China and the most likely replacement platform is J31.
A

Sir,
You realize you are talking about PAF. They are using Mirage III/V till now. So the ERA is still there for the M2K.
We have to realize JF-17 and F-16 are not enough for what PAF might face in the near future. J-10's would only give numerical superiority but not the technological edge and diversified weapons. A similar option to the J-10's could be the T-50 Golden Eagle provided PAF gets the ones in use of Korean Air Force.

For Rafales we would require a dedicated air-superiority aircraft probably a western one. However things are not looking bright.
Chinese and western 5th gen options would take time, so why not fight asymetrical

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well, JF17 Thunder main purpose was to serve few important goals

• Mordernization of the Aifroce with reliable Units, which are 0km mint planes, offer depandability and reliability not to mention confidence
  
• Second aim was / is to help retire the planes which have been flying for 20-25 year period

Block 3 , will certainly be a performance mile stone , which will make the fighter Jet a 4.5 Generation plane , new engine and improve radar

• A further 4th Block might be possible , with advancement in weapons/ Stealthier body / Weapons Hardpoints. I would be suprised if we did not had a Block 4

The plane is a Multipurpose Unit , which has its core duties to be a workhorse , handle maximum amount of missions and give Pakistan Airforce , easy maintainable platform to safe guard their air space.

• Double seat variants might be able to allow Trainers a more advantage to train new pilots

The Thunder offers freedom to continuously improve a platform we have serving now for 6-7 years, at our own speed and need

The other suggestions I made

• J-31 , would be a future direction , the 40 crafts would ensure - we have a special dedicated force for future generation fighter Jet, which would / could be used for strategic purpose.

• Turkish/ Pakistan , 5the Generation could also be a vital program which has impact beyond the 2025 period, since both Turkey or Pakistan might be interested to introduce a new Jet into their airforces

 

[mrrehan]

The french may have problems as well. In 2002 they had 59 aircrafts which were armie de aire 2000/5 which were the ones PAF was interested in. The air frames were going to be upgraded and all the frills and whistles PAF wanted were on offer. The cost remained an issue. If there is to be a sale they might want PAF to take the frsnch planes rather than the UAE ones. There cannot be any sale without the agreement of the provider.
PAF decided in 2002 to not avail the offer at $60 million a pop. I do not think they will go down the route again.
As to those who think UAE M2K9s are junk I am amazed that you guys without any knowledge are purporting views which border on the verge of being moronic. As @Khafee has said the M2k9s are not for sale at the moment and this is how it stands. So please listen to people who know better than you instead of arguing pointlessly.
Regards
A

Correct I am agree

M2K was to replace Mirage III/V and F1's. M2K-9 being the most advanced version bearing most of the technologies of the Rafale would bring a new spectrum to the JF-17 program. Something countries using Mirages would like to see in the JF-17.

Rafales and EFT are out of question. SU-35 and J-11 is also out of question. This leaves F-16's, M2K and Gripen as the single engine options. F-16's and Gripen are out of question this leaves only one option M2K's, now the only problem is price and specification.

I think you miss out J-10B/C option

The french may have problems as well. In 2002 they had 59 aircrafts which were armie de aire 2000/5 which were the ones PAF was interested in. The air frames were going to be upgraded and all the frills and whistles PAF wanted were on offer. The cost remained an issue. If there is to be a sale they might want PAF to take the frsnch planes rather than the UAE ones. There cannot be any sale without the agreement of the provider.
PAF decided in 2002 to not avail the offer at $60 million a pop. I do not think they will go down the route again.
As to those who think UAE M2K9s are junk I am amazed that you guys without any knowledge are purporting views which border on the verge of being moronic. As @Khafee has said the M2k9s are not for sale at the moment and this is how it stands. So please listen to people who know better than you instead of arguing pointlessly.
Regards
A

Just in case if M2K9 is not accessible for Pakistan. Then what do you think about J-10B/C. and is there any comparison between M2K9 and J-10B/C especially is there any Fly by wire for J-10B/C