U.S. Weighs Strikes Into Baluchistan

[RedBaron]

As always, a fascinating debate between AM/Kasrkin and S-2/Energon teams. Keep it coming, guys...

I must confess that on this rare occasion, I do find S-2's allegation that GoP/PA failed to secure the Durand, unfair and a tad bit simplistic and I'm puzzled by this. S-2 clearly understands that the rugged landscape that the Durand line cuts through is nothing like the Texas-Mexico border. Kasrkin has some very valid points on the practical difficulties of securing the Durand by any army, let alone PA. And where exactly would PA position its troops? The key Taliban leaders who direct anti-coalition troops from Pakistan probably number less than 500 and these guys would find a way through, even if the entire standing PA manned the Durand.

I would suggest S-2 to come up with a hypothesis to validate his assumption that PA could indeed secure the Durand. E.g. In 2001, PA could deploy X men from Y divisions in Area A measuring Z sq miles of the border, thereby preventing key Taliban leaders from crossing into Pakistan.
We could then test the hypotheses for validity. What do you say?

 

[BaburCM]

An attack on the province of Baluchistan will surely tantamount to an act of war. It will also fully reveal US motives within the region. A lot of vile eyes are focused on this precious province of Pakistan. The US has made it clear that Chinese presence in Baluchistan isn't to their liking. The Gwadar developments can be considered as a thorn to US plans. These strike threats are hardly a surprise. We can safely assume that the illegitimate WoT has been replaced from Iraq to Pakistan. Pakistan would do wise by seeking help and advise from China in this regard. China is an important stakeholder in Baluchistan. China too cannot afford a destabilized Baluchistan. Baluchistan mustn't be turned into another tribal areas. Baluchistan is too important for Pakistan. It represents a beacon of hope and prosperity. Baluchistan has the potential of transforming the whole of Pakistan. Baluchistan is the jugular vain of Pakistan. Bloodshed in Baluchistan will have devastating consequences for Pakistan.

 

[muse]

An attack on the province of Baluchistan will surely tantamount to an act of war

Sir, it is claimed that Talib and Al-Qaida have set themselves up in B'stan - why was that not an act of war? Also note Predator attacks are against individuals and groups identified as talib and AQ and not against any province or country.

A lot of vile eyes are focused on this precious province of Pakistan

.

How precious could it be that we left it underdeveloped as compared with the rest of our underdeveloped country? How precious coul dit be that we allowed the impression that the Talib Shura functions there? Maybe a new meaning for precious.

These strike threats are hardly a surprise

Why then the indignation? What kindsof people know something they hold "precious" will come under attack and still prefer to sit on their thumbs and take solce in indignation and complaining?

Maybe, perhaps, possibly, we may begin to assert Pakistani authority in the whole of Pakistan at whatever the cost, it may go a long way to reflect that we know how to hold what is precious to us. Nothing is more precious than Pakistan, not any damn talib or any murderous Islamist terrorist - these are enmies of Pakistan and I encourage all Pakistanis to show sense and pride of ownership in Pakistan, have we not had enough of this empty discourse of defiance and rejection and playing the victim?

 

[BaburCM]

Sir, it is claimed that Talib and Al-Qaida have set themselves up in B'stan - why was that not an act of war? Also note Predator attacks are against individuals and groups identified as talib and AQ and not against any province or country.

.

How precious could it be that we left it underdeveloped as compared with the rest of our underdeveloped country? How precious coul dit be that we allowed the impression that the Talib Shura functions there? Maybe a new meaning for precious.

Why then the indignation? What kindsof people know something they hold "precious" will come under attack and still prefer to sit on their thumbs and take solce in indignation and complaining?

Maybe, perhaps, possibly, we may begin to assert Pakistani authority in the whole of Pakistan at whatever the cost, it may go a long way to reflect that we know how to hold what is precious to us. Nothing is more precious than Pakistan, not any damn talib or any murderous Islamist terrorist - these are enmies of Pakistan and I encourage all Pakistanis to show sense and pride of ownership in Pakistan, have we not had enough of this empty discourse of defiance and rejection and playing the victim?

Brother muse, there are mainly nationalistic elements present in Baluchistan. We shouldn’t confuse the nationalistic movements with Taliban or AQ. The Taliban/AQ hardly have any foothold in Baluchistan. The US will obviously make such ridiculous claims in order to justify another strike in such a valuable area. It’s in their interest to break this province. Haven’t you seen the maps floating around the internet? Haven't you heard or read the claims made by prominent US think tanks to break away Baluchistan from Pakistan? We cannot begin to comprehend the far-reaching consequence of US interference in this province.

Let’s try to understand the importance of Baluchistan instead of being negative and dwelling in the past. I agree that the past leadership has abandoned and neglected Baluchistan and other parts of Pakistan. That’s a huge failure on their part and Pakistan is today paying for their sins. However, your pessimism won’t lead Pakistan anywhere. There is no Taliban present in Baluchistan. That's a lie and a perception that the US is trying to create. Baluchistan has for centuries had its own rule of law and customs. Perhaps a little outdated and cruel, but they have nothing in common with Taliban practice. Most nationalistic groups based in Baluchistan, believe in negotiating.

Let’s not pretend that the US is here to help Pakistan because they admire us so much. On the contrary, the US is here to redraw the map and they haven’t made any secret about it. It would be highly naive and wishful to think in such a short-sighted way. Please differentiate between your genuine friends and foes. True friends don't apply double standards. When will we understand that a country that provides one nation with advanced nuke tech and doesn't even allow another country to build their own reactors cannot be regarded as your friend? Don't you sense a level of hypocrisy and double standards? Why can't this nation decide its own destiny instead of leaning on malign superpowers that only know how to exploit? Haven't you had enough of the exploitation since the Cold War? Haven't you had enough of the blame games and the do more preaching? Haven't you had enough of the shackles of aid that Pakistan has been living on for the past decades?

Does Pakistan need to get rid of the extremists? Yes! Does Pakistan need to get control over its borders? Yes! Does Pakistan need to establish the rule of law across the land? Yes! Does Pakistan need to appreciate each and every province on an equal basis? Yes! Does Pakistan need to allow US interference in its own matters? No! There is no victim mentality, but just the reality. You either accept the reality or become another puppet Iraq marred by a civil war.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

BaburCM:
You state the following:
“Baluchistan is too important for Pakistan. It represents a beacon of hope and prosperity. Baluchistan has the potential of transforming the whole of Pakistan. Baluchistan is the jugular vain of Pakistan.”

If this is so correct why then has the province deteriorated to as Muse puts it so eloquently “we left it underdeveloped as compared with the rest of our underdeveloped country”.

So in reality though it is such a great place bluntly who in the F cares!

Actually face a bit of reality no one cares about the place it is obvious.
Start with this:
Death in the Mines
Death in the Mines
With no access to even basic medical amenities, coal miners continue to work in horrendous, life-threatening conditions.
Deep in the bowels of the Balochistan coal mines, thousands of coal miners toil under life-threatening conditions, with little or no safety precautions in place. Bonded for their working life through contractors, young boys of 13 work till they are 30 years old for a paltry sum until their damaged lungs can no longer withstand the chronic exposure to coal dust. Digging thousands of feet below ground, in a hollow tunnel in a mountain, what are the living conditions of the coal miners? What safety standards do they operate under? What is the human cost of mining coal and do the workers get the monetary rewards that they deserve?

That is dated 2006. What is depicted here for work practices is about 1906.

Try this as well
14 killed in Balochistan coal mine blast

14 killed in Balochistan coal mine blast - Friday, March 06, 2009

QUETTA: Fourteen miners were killed and eight others were injured in a coal mine explosion in Sorenje area on Thursday.

Official sources said 37 miners were working in a coal mine in Sorenje area when a blast rocked the mine at 12:10 pm. As a result, 14 workers suffocated to death, eight others were injured while the remaining survived. “We retrieved all the bodies from the debris by afternoon,” said an official while talking to newsmen at the site.

Reason:
According to reports, the explosion was caused due to the accumulation of methane, an inflammable gas with tendency to cause explosion, which probably got ignited by some spark.

A pathetic excuse. BUT an indication no one cares.

If this province was so valuable you would have qualified mine engineers in there, well paid workers and at least continuous miners not by hand methods.


Your other great piece of “I forgot to read”.
An attack on the province of Baluchistan will surely tantamount to an act of war. It will also fully reveal US motives within the region

Try going back to post #48
Here is a little link so you don’t get lost
http://www.defence.pk/forums/330617-post48.html
It is by AgNoStIc MuSliM and caries the heading of a news article
No drone attacks in Balochistan: Gates

 

[roadrunner]

Ratus Ratus,

You will find that mining accidents are common all over Pakistan, not just Balochistan.

Balochistan is underdeveloped because it contains 1/40th the population of Pakistan.

It is economically valuable to Pakistan (and other countries) because it churns out most of Pakistan's gas from its grounds. It is believed to contain billions of dollars worth of oil in it too.

 

[Ratus Ratus]

Mining accidents should not happen.
But when you use such, and sorry to say, backward methods you will get people killed fast.
Same reason they have accidents in China.

Also if such methods were even slightly updated and the Inspectorate did its job then people would see working as some reward. Adds to the community value.

The comment about population and development is possibly valid but where mining takes place it should be developed. While the mining companies are allowed to get away with fundamentally slave labour you will get unrest, and no development.

 

[BaburCM]

BaburCM:
You state the following:
“Baluchistan is too important for Pakistan. It represents a beacon of hope and prosperity. Baluchistan has the potential of transforming the whole of Pakistan. Baluchistan is the jugular vain of Pakistan.”

If this is so correct why then has the province deteriorated to as Muse puts it so eloquently “we left it underdeveloped as compared with the rest of our underdeveloped country”.

So in reality though it is such a great place bluntly who in the F cares!

Actually face a bit of reality no one cares about the place it is obvious.
Start with this:
Death in the Mines
Death in the Mines
With no access to even basic medical amenities, coal miners continue to work in horrendous, life-threatening conditions.
Deep in the bowels of the Balochistan coal mines, thousands of coal miners toil under life-threatening conditions, with little or no safety precautions in place. Bonded for their working life through contractors, young boys of 13 work till they are 30 years old for a paltry sum until their damaged lungs can no longer withstand the chronic exposure to coal dust. Digging thousands of feet below ground, in a hollow tunnel in a mountain, what are the living conditions of the coal miners? What safety standards do they operate under? What is the human cost of mining coal and do the workers get the monetary rewards that they deserve?

That is dated 2006. What is depicted here for work practices is about 1906.

Try this as well
14 killed in Balochistan coal mine blast

14 killed in Balochistan coal mine blast - Friday, March 06, 2009

QUETTA: Fourteen miners were killed and eight others were injured in a coal mine explosion in Sorenje area on Thursday.

Official sources said 37 miners were working in a coal mine in Sorenje area when a blast rocked the mine at 12:10 pm. As a result, 14 workers suffocated to death, eight others were injured while the remaining survived. “We retrieved all the bodies from the debris by afternoon,” said an official while talking to newsmen at the site.

Reason:
According to reports, the explosion was caused due to the accumulation of methane, an inflammable gas with tendency to cause explosion, which probably got ignited by some spark.

A pathetic excuse. BUT an indication no one cares.

If this province was so valuable you would have qualified mine engineers in there, well paid workers and at least continuous miners not by hand methods.


Your other great piece of “I forgot to read”.
An attack on the province of Baluchistan will surely tantamount to an act of war. It will also fully reveal US motives within the region

Try going back to post #48
Here is a little link so you don’t get lost
http://www.defence.pk/forums/330617-post48.html
It is by AgNoStIc MuSliM and caries the heading of a news article
No drone attacks in Balochistan: Gates

Dude, first of all take a deep breath and stop putting words in my mouth. Also, read my previous post properly before making hollow accusations.

I have already acknowledged that not only Baluchistan, but also many other parts of Pakistan have wrongfully been neglected by the past and current leadership. That’s a failure on their part, but what solace does this provide to the common man in Pakistan? It’s a negative and pessimistic thought. Leave the past behind you and focus on the future. If we go by your wonderful logic Pakistan shouldn’t even exist today.

Yes, those people that reside in Pakistan do F care! They care about their future! They care when Gwadar port provides them with a job. They care about when Baluchistan will prosper it will provide opportunity all across Pakistan. You’re living comfortably abroad in Australia and I understand why you don’t care.

Those articles indeed suggest the ugly side of Pakistan which I have never condoned or hidden. I’m aware of the hardships and double standards applied by the previous and current government of Pakistan. Also, such unfortunate exploitation occurs everywhere on the planet. Let’s not try to isolate the incident and only apply it in this particular instance. These greedy and nasty politicians have exploited the wealth of the nation. I have acknowledged that before. You don’t need to lecture me on that.

Perhaps not yet, but still no reason to sit idle and assume that all is fine. There are strong indications that the US is willing to take apart Baluchistan for its clandestine purposes. They have made no secret about it. Just because Mr. Gates changes the headline for one day doesn't mean a thing. Vigilance is required because Pakistan cannot afford another crisis.

 

[roadrunner]

Does Pakistan need to establish the rule of law across the land? Yes!

FATA needs a referendum, if you want to establish rule across it.

Fully integrate with Pakistan, or become an independent country being the choices.

 

[Omar1984]

FATA needs a referendum, if you want to establish rule across it.

Fully integrate with Pakistan, or become an independent country being the choices.

FATA was one of the most peaceful areas in Pakistan before US and India arrived in Afghanistan.

Things were going great from 1947-2001, the agreement between Quaid-e-Azam and Tribal elders in FATA were going great.

We need to bring back the FATA of pre-2001.

FATA is not a disputed territory like Kashmir where you need to have a referendum.

 

[BaburCM]

FATA needs a referendum, if you want to establish rule across it.

Fully integrate with Pakistan, or become an independent country being the choices.

Brother roadrunner, it would be a catastrophe to let go one part of Pakistan because we simply failed to bring stability and peace to that region. What precedent will this set for Baluchistan or the Kashmir issue? The only option is to secure and impose the rule of law. No other option.

 

[roadrunner]

Brother roadrunner, it would be a catastrophe to let go one part of Pakistan because we simply failed to bring stability and peace to that region. What precedent will this set for Baluchistan or the Kashmir issue? The only option is to secure and impose the rule of law. No other option.

I'm not saying you need to let it go.

I'm saying if they joined on agreement of something, then if you want to change the conditions of that agreement, you need to get a consensus of the people. So if you want to impose Pakistani civil law in FATA, you will need to get the people of FATA's vote. You could of course tempt them to vote for this.

Kashmir and Balochistan are different issues with their own set of conditions. You can't compare them all with each other.

 

[BaburCM]

I'm not saying you need to let it go.

I'm saying if they joined on agreement of something, then if you want to change the conditions of that agreement, you need to get a consensus of the people. So if you want to impose Pakistani civil law in FATA, you will need to get the people of FATA's vote. You could of course tempt them to vote for this.

Kashmir and Balochistan are different issues with their own set of conditions. You can't compare them all with each other.

Still, I have my reservations about a referendum on implementing the rule of law in FATA. It would set the dangerous precedent of regions becoming lawless as they have been for so many decades. It's high time to integrate these regions into Pakistan. This is exactly the excuse used by the US and others for blaming Pakistan that it doesn't control its border regions. I'm certain that the majority of law-abiding and peace loving people in FATA will stand squarely behind establishing the rule of law.

 

[Omar1984]

I'm not saying you need to let it go.

I'm saying if they joined on agreement of something, then if you want to change the conditions of that agreement, you need to get a consensus of the people. So if you want to impose Pakistani civil law in FATA, you will need to get the people of FATA's vote. You could of course tempt them to vote for this.

Kashmir and Balochistan are different issues with their own set of conditions. You can't compare them all with each other.

Before Bush decided to invade Afghanistan, the most dangerous areas in Pakistan were Karachi and Lahore, it was never FATA. Sindh and Punjab was much more dangerous.

We have to think what happened that made Sindh and Punjab the peaceful areas and FATA a dangerous place now. We have to fix that, and bring back the peace that we saw pre-2001. That should be Pakistan's priority. Referendums are made only for disputed areas ie Kashmir.

The problem here in not the people of FATA, the problem today is the atmosphere in that area, created because Bush had called for a "war on terror", which in one of his speeches he called a crusade....thats the problem.

 

[roadrunner]

Still, I have my reservations about a referendum on implementing the rule of law in FATA. It would set the dangerous precedent of regions becoming lawless as they have been for so many decades. It's high time to integrate these regions into Pakistan. This is exactly the excuse used by the US and others in blaming Pakistan that it doesn't control its border regions. I'm certain that the majority of law-abiding and peace loving people in FATA will stand squarely behind the establishing the rule of law.

No other region of Pakistan would have the right, since they all were signed to join Pakistan unconditionally. FATA did not join unconditionally afaik.