U.S. Effort to Help India Build Up Navy Hits Snag

[Sully3]

'we', trying too hard to fit in eh? .... You need to smell the coffee and wake up!


You have no idea about self respect and hard work...... Do you?

truth hurts bruh

 

[monitor]

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/...-help-india-build-up-navy-hits-snag/?mod=e2fb

When top American naval engineers recently inspected India’s first locally made aircraft carrier they expected to find a near battle-ready ship set to help counter China’s growing sway in the Indian Ocean.

Instead, they discovered the carrier wouldn’t be operational for up to a decade and other shortcomings: no small missile system to defend itself, a limited ability to launch sorties and no defined strategy for how to use the ship in combat. The findings alarmed U.S. officials hoping to enlist India as a bulwark against China, people close to the meeting said.

“China’s navy will be the biggest in the world soon, and they’re definitely eyeing the Indian Ocean with ports planned in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh,” said retired Admiral Arun Prakash, the former commander of India’s navy. “The Indian navy is concerned about this.”

The February carrier inspection, in the port of Kochi, formed part of U.S. plans to share aircraft carrier technology with India. Indian naval officials followed up with a tour of an American shipbuilding yard in Virginia and strategy briefings at the Pentagon in September, the people close to the meetings said.

The U.S. and India are drawing closer politically and militarily. The two have participated in joint naval exercises with Japan. The U.S. has agreed to sell New Delhi everything from attack helicopters to artillery. Washington has approved proposals by Lockheed Martin and Boeing Co. to make advanced jet fighters in India. And in August, the two countries signed a military logistics-sharing accord

I think they are misinformed it would have Barak LR system and CIWS to defend itself .

 

[Haris Mansoor]

According to you guys OSAMA is not dead because US did not provide you with the body, can you dare to ask same proof from US and what could be the Answer from AMREEKA bhaadur ?

"AMREEKA bhaadur" did surgical strike without any doubts, they showed it to world, I am happy if Usama Bin Laden is not dead, I don't want proof of his death. BTW How does it relates to
"IN won't going to discuss how they going to use carrier in combat..."
Or IA not providing proof of "Surgi Kal Strike"??? or the technique of Indian Army???

 

[Super Commando Dhruva]

"AMREEKA bhaadur" did surgical strike without any doubts, they showed it to world, I am happy if Usama Bin Laden is not dead, I don't want proof of his death. BTW How does it relates to
"IN won't going to discuss how they going to use carrier in combat..."
Or IA not providing proof of "Surgi Kal Strike"??? or the technique of Indian Army???

OOO soo APKO bura laga ki INDIA ne jhoot bola. Dont ask what you guys said about proof given by AMREEKA....
Watch out Bramos may land in your backyard incase Terrorist are hiding there...

 

[Nan Yang]

Believe what you want, everyone here knows who has been operating Aircraft carriers since the 60s.

Don't be stupid @Beast

You only have to study the history of India’s aircraft carrier program and you will see what I mean.


INS Vikrant (1961 to 1997) - This was India first aircraft carrier. This was a brand new zero mileage aircraft carrier with catapult launch and has an angle deck which at that time was an advance design. It operated the Seahawk which at that time was a very successful aircraft carrier based fighter.

So it was fair to say this aircraft carrier capability was pretty much comparable with the best in the world at that timeframe ie 1960s and 70s. This was a good opportunity to learn and master aircraft carrier technologies.

However, India did not learn or master any of the aircraft carrier technology like the catapult, the arrestor landing and the aircraft carrier based fighter.


INS Viraat (1987 to 2020) – This is India’s second aircraft carrier. Now this was first launch in 1945 for the Royal Navy so it was launch even earlier than India’s first aircraft carrier INS Vikrant ! So what India got was a second hand, even older hand down aircraft carrier with a ski ramp instead of catapult launch. Its capability thus fell behind the catapult launch carrier but still quite capable. Today it’s a decrepitated aircraft carrier used only for show.


Now it get worst.


INS Vikramaditya (2013) – This is India’s third aircraft carrier. Not only is this another second hand, hand down aircraft carrier, it’s not even an aircraft carrier but originally a helicopter carrier. It has no blast shield, it is small with its infrastructure located near the center and its elevators located in the center blocking landing operations. Only one elevator can fit the MIG29. Its bridge control room looks like something from the 1980s. Even INS Vikramaditya will be dock soon for a refit to add an air defense.


So today, after over 50 years of operating aircraft carriers, India only have one modified helicopter carrier (Not counting that decrepitated INS Viraat ).

 

[Echo_419]

You only have to study the history of India’s aircraft carrier program and you will see what I mean.


INS Vikrant (1961 to 1997) - This was India first aircraft carrier. This was a brand new zero mileage aircraft carrier with catapult launch and has an angle deck which at that time was an advance design. It operated the Seahawk which at that time was a very successful aircraft carrier based fighter.

So it was fair to say this aircraft carrier capability was pretty much comparable with the best in the world at that timeframe ie 1960s and 70s. This was a good opportunity to learn and master aircraft carrier technologies.

However, India did not learn or master any of the aircraft carrier technology like the catapult, the arrestor landing and the aircraft carrier based fighter.


INS Viraat (1987 to 2020) – This is India’s second aircraft carrier. Now this was first launch in 1945 for the Royal Navy so it was launch even earlier than India’s first aircraft carrier INS Vikrant ! So what India got was a second hand, even older hand down aircraft carrier with a ski ramp instead of catapult launch. Its capability thus fell behind the catapult launch carrier but still quite capable. Today it’s a decrepitated aircraft carrier used only for show.


Now it get worst.


INS Vikramaditya (2013) – This is India’s third aircraft carrier. Not only is this another second hand, hand down aircraft carrier, it’s not even an aircraft carrier but originally a helicopter carrier. It has no blast shield, it is small with its infrastructure located near the center and its elevators located in the center blocking landing operations. Only one elevator can fit the MIG29. Its bridge control room looks like something from the 1980s. Even INS Vikramaditya will be dock soon for a refit to add an air defense.


So today, after over 50 years of operating aircraft carriers, India only have one modified helicopter carrier (Not counting that decrepitated INS Viraat ).

INS Vikramaditya is already operational & when the IAC-1 is commissioned we will become the 2nd country in Asia, after Japan, to design, develop and build our own aircraft carrier.

 

[anon45]

One of the reasons could be that India is the biggest market for defence sales,India needs new gear and the US among others can provide.

Wouldn't you have a strategy and then buy the gear that can best carry out that strategy, not the other way around?

 

[randomradio]

You only have to study the history of India’s aircraft carrier program and you will see what I mean.


INS Vikrant (1961 to 1997) - This was India first aircraft carrier. This was a brand new zero mileage aircraft carrier with catapult launch and has an angle deck which at that time was an advance design. It operated the Seahawk which at that time was a very successful aircraft carrier based fighter.

So it was fair to say this aircraft carrier capability was pretty much comparable with the best in the world at that timeframe ie 1960s and 70s. This was a good opportunity to learn and master aircraft carrier technologies.

However, India did not learn or master any of the aircraft carrier technology like the catapult, the arrestor landing and the aircraft carrier based fighter.


INS Viraat (1987 to 2020) – This is India’s second aircraft carrier. Now this was first launch in 1945 for the Royal Navy so it was launch even earlier than India’s first aircraft carrier INS Vikrant ! So what India got was a second hand, even older hand down aircraft carrier with a ski ramp instead of catapult launch. Its capability thus fell behind the catapult launch carrier but still quite capable. Today it’s a decrepitated aircraft carrier used only for show.


Now it get worst.


INS Vikramaditya (2013) – This is India’s third aircraft carrier. Not only is this another second hand, hand down aircraft carrier, it’s not even an aircraft carrier but originally a helicopter carrier. It has no blast shield, it is small with its infrastructure located near the center and its elevators located in the center blocking landing operations. Only one elevator can fit the MIG29. Its bridge control room looks like something from the 1980s. Even INS Vikramaditya will be dock soon for a refit to add an air defense.


So today, after over 50 years of operating aircraft carriers, India only have one modified helicopter carrier (Not counting that decrepitated INS Viraat ).

Where are you all getting your half-baked information from?

The first three carriers were all second hand. We don't copy paste technology. What the carriers gave us is experience and capability in operating carriers. China will take at least 30 years to get to our level.

The Vikramaditya and Vikrant are not helicopter carriers, they have the capability to handle 30-40 fighter aircraft each. We have 45 Mig-29Ks, all capable of operating from carriers and that's considered a shortage of carrier fighters, that's why we also plan to buy F-35Bs now.

All our carriers are small but full fledged carriers.

Can you please look at these pictures and tell me what's missing for it to not be a carrier?

Two elevators on the Vikramaditya can handle the Mig-29K. That's plenty.

Don't forget we paid only $2.35B for this and will get 30 years out of it. That's a steal. There's no chance of ever getting a better bargain than this.

Otoh, the lone Chinese carrier is just a training vessel, whereas the IN is now equipped enough to take the Vikramaditya to war.

 

[Nan Yang]

Wouldn't you have a strategy and then buy the gear that can best carry out that strategy, not the other way around?

India's greatest threat is their internal Maoist insurgency as stated by their previous PM. Their second threat probably is Pakistan which is just next door and Kashmir which is inland. Then they have border issues with China which is thousands of miles inland and thousands of feet high.

Go figure out an aircraft carrier strategy.
Basically its a "India wants to be recognized as a super power" strategy . That's it.

 

[Fenrir]

Wouldn't you have a strategy and then buy the gear that can best carry out that strategy, not the other way around?

One would think so, but often with capital assets a nation identifies that it wants one and then crafts a doctrine around it. Strategies are ever changing and so are the assets that support them. In the span of a few years the US went from a full CBG concept to a more limited task group headed by assault ships to a cruiser or destroyer led regional strike and interdiction package, as seen in the Arabian sea with USS Gravely and its supporting assets like Cyclone Class patrol vessels.

If the region got hot you could see additional assets added to the region and the strategy would be further amended. Or even a full NATO SNMG. This is SNMG-1.

Depending on the assets included in the group, the nature of the action being undertaken and the nations involved, the strategy and chain of command will differ.

In many cases a nation will outline what their threat profile is, the regional topography, and other key metrics and fill out their fleet in accordance to their plan, but it's when they have the assets that they begin to develop a strategy and experiment with different battle concepts.

The IN knows it wants a carrier and knows what it wants to do with it or what areas it want to effect with it, but once the carrier is ready and supporting assets are built and ready for deployment, then the IN begins to craft the battlegroup around the carrier.

That group will change depending on shifts in threat or mission profile, just as the USN's battlegroups do or NATO's Standing Maritime Groups do.

 

[Nan Yang]

Can you please look at these pictures and tell me what's missing for it to not be a carrier?

Two elevators on the Vikramaditya can handle the Mig-29K. That's plenty

Don't forget we paid only $2.35B for this and will get 30 years out of it. That's a steal. There's no chance of ever getting a better bargain than this.

Otoh, the lone Chinese carrier is just a training vessel, whereas the IN is now equipped enough to take the Vikramaditya to war.

Vikramatiya’s infrastructure is near the center of the carrier. Because it used to be a helicopter carrier.



This is proper aircraft carrier infrastructure… at the edge of the carrier.

[/URL
]


This is Vikramatiya’s Bridge. It’s so out of date.

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/VikramatiyaBridge_zpse2b6f059.jpg.html][/URL
]


This is a modern warship Bridge

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/LiaoNingBridge_zps6004393f.jpg.html][/URL
]


This is Vikramatiya’s Lifts. Small and Cramp built for small helicopters.Only one lift can be use for the MIG29

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/attachmentphp_zpsca960dd7.jpg.html][/URL
]


This is what an aircraft carrier lift should be like. Spacious wuth one side facing the edge.

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/j-15-16_zps8319afce.jpg.html][/URL
]


Vikramatiya do not have blast shield. You will have to clear eveything behind the engine or it will be blown into the sea..

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/Mig-29K_Landing_on_INS_Vikramaditya_zps7738485d.jpg.html][/URL
]


All aircraft carriers have blast shield. Like this.

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/j-15-21_zpsf53ccb31.jpg.html][/URL
]

More to come....................[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[Nan Yang]

Vikramatiya 2 take off position overlaps with the landing. You cannot takeoff and land at the same time. Also you only have 3 arrestors which are improvised as original design do not cater space for it.

[/URL
]


A proper aircraft carrier has 3 take off positions. As you can see one take off position does not overlap the landing. There is 4 arrestors which are part of the original design.

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/LiaoNingcopy_zps07615f14.jpg.html][/URL
]


Vikramatiya also do not have this thing for emergency landing.

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/Libye-cdg-Porte-avions-Charles-de-Gaullecopy_zps327adff1.jpg.html][/URL
]

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Military/LiaoNing2copy_zpse219dbd7.jpg.html][/URL
]


China also have a Kiev class helicopter carrier. But its only good enough as a floating hotel.

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Others/add-hotel-550-15_zpscdfg66hr.jpg.html][/URL
] [URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Others/0013729e4ad91062168401_zpsmxfeuinn.jpg.html]

[/URL
]

[URL=http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Others/China-Aircraft-Carrier-07_zps3c365e70.jpg.html][/URL
]



There is also the problems due to the modifications. Such as the extra weight due to the addition of the angled deck, the take off ramp and the arrestor equipment.

So good luck trying to use this modified helicopter carrier.[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

 

[randomradio]

Vikramatiya’s infrastructure is near the center of the carrier. Because it used to be a helicopter carrier.



This is proper aircraft carrier infrastructure… at the edge of the carrier.

[/URL
]


This is Vikramatiya’s Bridge. It’s so out of date.

[/URL
]


This is a modern warship Bridge

[/URL
]


This is Vikramatiya’s Lifts. Small and Cramp built for small helicopters.Only one lift can be use for the MIG29

[/URL
]


This is what an aircraft carrier lift should be like. Spacious wuth one side facing the edge.

[/URL
]


Vikramatiya do not have blast shield. You will have to clear eveything behind the engine or it will be blown into the sea..

[/URL
]


All aircraft carriers have blast shield. Like this.

[/URL
]

More to come....................

Lol, none of these make a carrier.

Even the bridge on the Nimitz 'looks' older than what's on Vikramaditya.

So you can start calling the Liaoning superior to the Nimitz as well.

Do you know that the America class don't have blast shields as well? Why don't you look up the takeoff positions of the Mig-29K and then figure out if blast shields are necessary or not?

Both the elevators on the Vikramaditya can carry the Mig-29K. Since you seem to be such an expert, use your brains and figure out where this lift is. The island and the yellow lines are enough clue. Now go look for the yellow line and island in the picture you posted.

Let's see what else come up with.

You see, what we have and the Chinese don't is a strategy. The Chinese need to build CBGs, start cruising the world and figure out how to use a carrier in battle, that will take years, maybe even decades.

 

[randomradio]

Vikramatiya 2 take off position overlaps with the landing. You cannot takeoff and land at the same time. Also you only have 3 arrestors which are improvised as original design do not cater space for it.

[/URL
]


A proper aircraft carrier has 3 take off positions. As you can see one take off position does not overlap the landing. There is 4 arrestors which are part of the original design.

[/URL
]


Vikramatiya also do not have this thing for emergency landing.

[/URL
]

[/URL
]


China also have a Kiev class helicopter carrier. But its only good enough as a floating hotel.

[/URL
]
http://s1054.photobucket.com/user/themiddlepath1/media/Others/add-hotel-550-15_zpscdfg66hr.jpg.html
[/URL
]

[/URL
]



There is also the problems due to the modifications. Such as the extra weight due to the addition of the angled deck, the take off ramp and the arrestor equipment.

So good luck trying to use this modified helicopter carrier.

When you are landing, you need aircraft clear off the strip so the pilot can takeoff again in an emergency. So the overlap is unimportant. Even on the Nimitz, they clear the deck for landing.

The Vikramaditya has all the landing aids necessary.

The Ford class carrier also has 3 wires, similar to the Vikramaditya. The two youngest carriers also have 3 wires only.

China hasn't modified the Kiev because they are far older than what India got. And China had the Varyag anyway, so it didn't make sense. In fact, the Russian Navy said the Vikramaditya is more advanced and capable than their own Kuznetsov carrier and were willing to buy it back from the Indian Navy.

 

[Peshwa]

It's better to find deficiencies early, rather than be caught with ones pants down in a critical situation.
So any critique is good if it translates to improvement.

Now its another thing about the validity of this "news"

But even if true, it only helps us identify and correct the issues. I take this as a positive!
Chinese and Pakistanis can sleep well knowing that India isn't ready with its AC, or that it isn't even capable of building one...good for them! that's exactly how we like our enemies, overconfident and under informed!