U.S. Challenges China on Disputed Islands

[Hafizzz]

I personally think China's claim on the Spratelys and Parcels is dubious, but I just think I understand why China wants them.

China imports most of her oil from the Arab world which means she has to pass through the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea. Now if other countries control the Paracel Islands then they will refuse China to pass through claiming that it is their territory.

Just like India is trying to refuse China to pass through the Indian Ocean
(International Waters) saying that China is trying to take over "India" ocean. LOL

The thing about American containment strategies against China is, containing Chinese strategic influences will ensure American to continue to shoulder the responsibilities of maintaining the world order and maritime peace without China's help. It can not ask China's help for maintaining geo-strategic stability at the same time denying the Chinese quest for geo-strategic influence.

That's not a problem for the U.S right now. However after 20 or so years when the size of Chinese economy overtakes that of the U.S, and especially if the world begins to adopt yuan as another reserve currency or even begins to price oil in both yuan and dollar. Will the U.S still be willing to foot the bill for protecting sea lines of communication and world order when it's no longer its greatest economic beneficiary?

That's the problem of trying to strategically contain a country with partners who have bigger economic relationships with your enemy than with you. You can't do anything to seriously harm your enemy's economy because that will ruin your allies' economies as well and hence unacceptable to your allies. In fact you'll be forced to defend much of your enemy's interests because they're shared mutually with your allies.

I suspect the U.S will eventually grow tired of this game (if they ever decide to pursue the containment policy in earnest) and who knows, may be by then China will be so used to letting the U.S run the world that it don't want the Americans to stop. Afterall, the Chinese attitude toward the outside world had long been 'Our way is right. Your way is wrong. But we don't really care and you can all rot in hell'.

USA knows it is fighting a war(containment of China's rise) that she will not win but yet she refuse to give up until she gets burned.

There is a saying..."If you can't beat them then why not join them ?".

 

[below_freezing]

The US should reconsider its primary interests in this matter. It is a delicate issue that may result in unforseen consequences for both US and its dogs in the region.

 

[CardSharp]

Well it's simple; they can get a better deal from the USA. Simply look at the numbers now and see why.

Why have a big brother who can reduce your foreign aid to zero in a heartbeat for any possible reason, when you can have welfare office that will only cut your foreign aid off if you make it onto the state sponsored terrorism list? And then, with that aid, you can hire this needed expertise with no string attached other than money.

Do you have these numbers? stats? policy statements? This all sounds like something you made up.

 

[CardSharp]

The thing about American containment strategies against China is, containing Chinese strategic influences will ensure American to continue to shoulder the responsibilities of maintaining the world order and maritime peace without China's help. It can not ask China's help for maintaining geo-strategic stability at the same time denying the Chinese quest for geo-strategic influence.

Yep fair is fair.

That's the problem of trying to strategically contain a country with partners who have bigger economic relationships with your enemy than with you. You can't do anything to seriously harm your enemy's economy because that will ruin your allies' economies as well and hence unacceptable to your allies. In fact you'll be forced to defend much of your enemy's interests because they're shared mutually with your allies.

But given the level of paranoia and delusions in American right now, that's precisely what some Americans want. ie Boycott China, default on debt, raise tariffs against Chinese products etc. I doubt policy makers buy into this but it is a democracy and what the public wants the public wants and Politicians like Chuck Schumer is more than happy to pander to them.

I suspect the U.S will eventually grow tired of this game (if they ever decide to pursue the containment policy in earnest) and who knows, may be by then China will be so used to letting the U.S run the world that it don't want the Americans to stop. Afterall, the Chinese attitude toward the outside world had long been 'Our way is right. Your way is wrong. But we don't really care and you can all rot in hell'.

No I suspect America will hold on to its delusions of grandeur on after it is no longer in a position to do what it did the 90's. After all look at Britain, a faded 19th century superpower who still thinks they have a place to lecture others and meddle as they like in their former colonies.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

Do you have these numbers? stats? policy statements? This all sounds like something you made up.

It is quite common knowledge that US relations with Vietnam have normalized and USAID so far is about a quarter billion. It is also quite common knowledge that the World Bank of which the USA is the largest donor has donated around ten billion. Meanwhile China despite its huge cash reserves has donated perhaps 2-4 billion.

America is simply a better choice when it comes to foreign aid. You're the one making up the idea China has any real interest in Vietnam, all under some strange idea of asian unity. What makes you think China has any real interest in Vietnam?

P.S. If policy statements are what you want to judge by, America clearly wins since it has no problems playing up its aid. But China has no central aid agency, is afraid of publicizing exact figures in fear of both domestic anger at "wasting money" abroad and foreign withdrawal of aid of which China is still a recepient. So better change your mind about that .

 

[gambit]

It is quite common knowledge that US relations with Vietnam have normalized and USAID so far is about a quarter billion. It is also quite common knowledge that the World Bank of which the USA is the largest donor has donated around ten billion. Meanwhile China despite its huge cash reserves has donated perhaps 2-4 billion.

America is simply a better choice when it comes to foreign aid. You're the one making up the idea China has any real interest in Vietnam, all under some strange idea of asian unity. What makes you think China has any real interest in Vietnam?

The sentiment in Viet Nam is that all Asian countries that has sea lane access should be wary of a rising China. If there is any sort of 'Asian unity' it will be one supported by the US to be against China.

 

[Nomenclature]

But given the level of paranoia and delusions in American right now, that's precisely what some Americans want. ie Boycott China, default on debt, raise tariffs against Chinese products etc. I doubt policy makers buy into this but it is a democracy and what the public wants the public wants and Politicians like Chuck Schumer is more than happy to pander to them.

Yeah but despite being a democracy, America had never been populist. I trust U.S decision makers to have enough common sense this time as well.

The sentiment in Viet Nam is that all Asian countries that has sea lane access should be wary of a rising China. If there is any sort of 'Asian unity' it will be one supported by the US to be against China.

There has never been any kind of Asian unity anyway.

In the South China Sea dispute, Vietnam will be eager to have an ASEAN-China negotiation, but most likely won't be happy with an international court ruling because its claim based on French colonial history is as unlikely to find legal support as the Chinese claim.

International law in this area has been gradually moving away from historical occupations to geographic features. This trend probably makes Vietnam anxious because although the Chinese is also losing the chance for a legal victory its naval force is growing far more rapidly than Vietnam's.

Other ASEAN claimants generally relay on some sort of geographic argument, and will be at least equally happy with a ASEAN-China negotiation as an international court ruling. On the other hand, Indonesia, an no-claimant, prefers an international court ruling.

So there are chances for interests of ASEAN countries to fracture on this issue, and China will likely exploit those.

 

[mDumb]

<There has never been any kind of Asian unity anyway.>

Designed by the fu&king white people to be in disarray.

Sh&t, the Asian countries were fu&king colonized by the fu&king white people (Dutch, Britons, French, USA, Portuguese, Spanish, etc.).

And the sad part is some of these former colonies still glorify their old masters. I overheard this fu&king Indian going to Britain to pay homage to their former masters thanking them for the introduction of English language to India. His proficiency in English language enables him to make tons of money in Silicon Valley. The same goes with Singaporeans and Filipinos.

Further complication, the US got South Korea and Japan by the balls.

Asia is Fu&ked!!!! And the fu&king Asians duped by uncle Sam that China is the monster.

 

[CardSharp]

Yeah but despite being a democracy, America had never been populist. I trust U.S decision makers to have enough common sense this time as well.

Fair point about the disconnect between US decision makers and the US general population. The pew poll shows that while general public&#8217;s fear of China has held steady/risen a bit, CFR members have increasing seen China as not a threat to the US.

U.S. Seen as Less Important, China as More Powerful: Overview - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

The members of the CFR (the Council on Foreign Relations) can be pretty accurate described as the key decision makers in the US. They include ranking government officials (along with world business leaders and prominent media figures)

I see this disperity as evidence the US media&#8217;s control over public opinion. Those who don&#8217;t bother formulate their own opinions on China get fed alarmist propaganda by the major news outlets.

As you can probably surmise, I am no fan of populist anythings.

There has never been any kind of Asian unity anyway.
In the South China Sea dispute, Vietnam will be eager to have an ASEAN-China negotiation, but most likely won't be happy with an international court ruling because its claim based on French colonial history is as unlikely to find legal support as the Chinese claim.
So there are chances for interests of ASEAN countries to fracture on this issue, and China will likely exploit those.

China will have the upper hand in any bi-lateral negoitiations, so that is probably why they are so eager to make the issue international. But they will probably have a hard time uniting ASEAN behind them on the issue, working against China&#8217;s contrivance and the fact that other claimants don&#8217;t share the same goals as it does and are somewhat half-hearted.

International law in this area has been gradually moving away from historical occupations to geographic features. This trend probably makes Vietnam anxious because although the Chinese is also losing the chance for a legal victory its naval force is growing far more rapidly than Vietnam's.
Other ASEAN claimants generally relay on some sort of geographic argument, and will be at least equally happy with a ASEAN-China negotiation as an international court ruling. On the other hand, Indonesia, an no-claimant, prefers an international court ruling.
.

I&#8217;m sure you are more familiar with the issue who has the better claim to the islands based on ocean shelf and other geographical features?

This trend probably makes Vietnam anxious because although the Chinese is also losing the chance for a legal victory its naval force is growing far more rapidly than Vietnam's. .

How important is naval assets in this dispute? Surely the age of openly threatening the use of naval power is going to have profound consequences internationally.

So there are chances for interests of ASEAN countries to fracture on this issue, and China will likely exploit those.

Agreed, the CCP is nothing if not wiley in negoitiations dating back to the united front with the GMD.

 

[Blueblood]

Uncle Sam will never make China easy~

 

[Nomenclature]

China will have the upper hand in any bi-lateral negoitiations, so that is probably why they are so eager to make the issue international. But they will probably have a hard time uniting ASEAN behind them on the issue, working against China’s contrivance and the fact that other claimants don’t share the same goals as it does and are somewhat half-hearted.

I agree it's going to be very hard for ASEAN to act together on the South China Sea. For example, China currently has completely control over Paracel Islands and consider the issue settled, therefore it will not discuss Paracel Islands in any negotiation. Vietnam is the only ASEAN country disputing the Chinese claim on those islands and it will have a hard time convincing other ASEAN countries to insist Paracel Islands being part of the talk even if a ASEAN-China negotiation is taking place one day.

I’m sure you are more familiar with the issue who has the better claim to the islands based on ocean shelf and other geographical features?

How important is naval assets in this dispute? Surely the age of openly threatening the use of naval power is going to have profound consequences internationally.

It's actually impossible to say who has a better claim. As so many different parties are claiming so many different sets of islands, the legal merit will probably have to be decided on an island by island basis. I bet asking ten different international maritime law experts you'll get ten different answers.

As for naval power, a lot of so-called islands in the dispute are actually little more than tiny pieces of rock spending half of the day underwater. So the actually control of these rocks will be decided by who has the upper hand in naval power projection.

 

[Hafizzz]

Uncle Sam will never make China easy~

What goes around will come around. LOL

 

[ejaz007]

China Stakes Claim on Disputed Islands after Spats
AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
Published: 8 Mar 2011 13:53

BEIJING - China on March 8 reiterated its claim over disputed islands in the South China Sea after the Philippines and Vietnam protested to Beijing over its naval activity in contested waters.

The Philippines last week lodged a complaint after two Chinese vessels ordered its oil exploration boat to leave waters near the disputed Spratly islands, and Vietnam has protested against Chinese military exercises nearby.

"China holds indisputable sovereignty over the South China Sea islands and their adjacent waters," foreign ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu told reporters.

"We have been committed to dialogue and consultation to properly solve the South China Sea dispute and work with relevant countries to safeguard peace and stability in the South China Sea."

The Philippine government has ordered the coast guard to escort the survey ship since the incident near the disputed archipelago, known as the Nansha Islands in China and the Spratlys elsewhere.

The reputedly oil-rich chain of tiny islands and reefs in the South China Sea is claimed in whole or in part by Brunei, China, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan and Vietnam.

Jiang on March 8 called on countries involved not to make the issue "more complicated".

"We hope that other countries can respect and support efforts to peacefully resolve the disputes, to promote good neighborly friendship and peace and stability in the region," she said.

China Stakes Claim on Disputed Islands after Spats - Defense News

 

[pluto]

let's fight and put an end to the earth as U.S wanted it.

 

[pluto]

Uncle Sam will never make China easy~

as i said in a couple posts , Sam will do the same to any BIG country that is rising and challenging it's power, no matter it's democratic or not.
say, if India, a democratic nation, in the furture is strong enough like Soviet Union which was not democratic, Sam will come to China and say "we are allies, let's challenge Idia and restrain its power as possible as we can, they might become Iran one day. you're close to them, so you do first, we'll cancel all sanctions against you and sell you advanced weapons. we count on you, go, real man". LOL
that's it.