Typhoon, Rafale no match for China’s J-20

[Matrixx]

Yes..there is no match between in use, final product and a prototype which is not yest tested also...

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Thought you would be smart enough to know the details when i pointed out the name of radar .
Well EA18G uses AN/APG-79 radar , you knew to date only US operates AESA radars that are must for 5th gen fighters . So its generation ahead in terms of radar .

where as Rafale still uses traditional Thales RBE2 passive electronically scanned multi-mode radar.
Now no need to save your argument .
Growler is a special EW aircraft where as Rafale being multirole has its parameters inferior to Growler . Growler being a USN Fighter will be equipped with best of US data links so that it can communicate with AWACS,Friendly aircrafts and base station . Growlers radar is nearly impossible to jam where as Rafales one being PESA can be jammed leave about using it as escort every time Rafale can do missions over Libya but it cant dare to enter Iran where as Growlers will be the front liners with main fighters in case US uses its aircraft carriers to attack Iran .
ps : im not saying rafale is bad but its inferior to growler in the points which i mentioned .

check out what you said



Its very clear Growler is far ahead .

Mate I may not be Smart as you are but smart enough to know what i am typing. sorry to say you still don't have any idea what you are saying! Post above doesn't prove that growler is GENERATION ahead in terms of situational awareness and SS.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

I'm certain a lot of Indians want to believe you but here is a clue for you. The GIB in a Rafale is a WSO (Weapons Systems Officer) the GIB sometimes affectionately called 'trunk monkey' in a Growler is a ECMO (Electronic Counter-Measures Officer). I don't want to dispute Rafale's many imagined capabilities and offend its Indian fans, after all what you don't know can't hurt you - can it?

Madam Your Post are Not helping anyone! you clearly have no idea what you are typing. you maybe a military professional but not The only one in here. The IAF AMC link YOU posted is Baseless!!

@sancho Good post!....Just got online

@1992
both rafale and EA-18G are equipped with aesa radar.
but mounting more jammers make's EA18 generation ahead in terms of situational awarness, s-suit ?

am i missing anything ?

according to some growler cheerleaders

 

[Donatello]

India will ink the world’s single largest defence deal by closing the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract in a couple of months. As these fourth generation fighter jets join the Indian Air Force fleet, China will prepare to launch its fifth generation stealth fighter Chengdu J-20. China is racing ahead towards the planned induction of its indigenous stealth fighter in 2017. The Chengdu J-20, which made its debut in January this year, has already flown two prototypes, within a span of four months. In India’s case, however, the two shortlisted contenders — Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale, both only fourth generation — are still undergoing price negotiations. The commercial bids for the US $15 billion deal were opened on 4 November.
Eurofighter Typhoon from the European consortium EADS — comprising Italy, Germany, Spain and UK as partner nations — is a twin-engine, multi-role fighter. A question mark exists on its air-to-ground capability. The UK audit watchdog NAO has criticised the Typhoon for its problems with spares availability, flying hours, immature estimates in funding and inefficient collaborative decision making. It has said that the aircraft will not have full multi-role capability for some years.

To add to this, the Typhoon is still in the process of acquiring air-to-ground attack capability, which was tested unsuccessfully in Libya recently.

French Dassault Aviation’s twin-engine Rafale fighter is operational only in the French Navy and Air Force, and recently lost out the US $10 billion deal it had hoped to sign with the United Arab Emirates.

Highly priced, approximately around $80 million a piece, neither Typhoon nor Rafale has a proven radar (the tender requirement is for an AESA [active electronically scanned array]). This came to light during laboratory trials. The manufacturers said that the radar would be integrated once the deal was finalised.

It would take almost four years for the first aircraft to arrive after the deal is inked. So by the time India gets its fourth generation aircraft in 2016, the Chinese will be ready to induct their fifth generation aircraft.

Taking the lead in almost all its indigenous equipment trials, China seems to be well ahead of schedule in its weapons platforms. Their aircraft carrier Varyag entered sea trials in July 2011. The fifth generation stealth fighter J-20′s debut this year helped China enter the elite club of fifth generation fighter jet owners. The other members of the club are the United States and Russia. While Russia took a year to make the second flight of its fifth generation stealth fighter PAK-FA, or T-50, with the first flight in January 2010, and the second in 2011, China has taken a lead in its stealth fighter trials.

Having advanced stealth features and the capability of super cruising, the J-20′s initial flights have given rise to speculation that the stealth fighter may already be being developed further. Western experts have called the stealth shaping of the J-20 better than the Russian PAK-FA (T-50) and the American F-35 fifth generation fighters. The J-20 will also have an AESA radar, electro-optical sensors, glass cockpit, fly-by-wire systems and bays for weapons of all ranges.

On record, Air Force officers back the Government of India’s choice. Former Air Chief F.H. Major told The Sunday Guardian, “The Chinese may be aiming at a fifth generation aircraft, but India, too, has entered into a similar venture with Russia. Since J-20 is not yet inducted, we don’t know what capability it will have, whereas the shortlisted MMRCA fighters, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale are already flying in some countries, so we know their capabilities. Except stealth, which is an exclusive fifth generation feature, most four plus and fifth generation fighters have common features, like EW systems, weaponry and super cruise.”

Former Western Air Command Chief, retired Air Marshal A.K. Singh said, “Technologically there may not be much of a difference, except stealth. Arms and ammunition put onboard make a difference, which is not known for any of these aircraft. As far as inter-operability, manoeuvrability and sensors go, I don’t think there is much of a difference.”

Former Air Chief S. Krishnaswamy said, “The AESA radar on both Typhoon and Rafale may have been demonstrated in a laboratory, but by the time they are inducted, these radars will be a part of the fighters as that’s the tender requirement. But other avionics and sensors, like SAR, FLIR, IR will be better on the Indian planes, since we have access to western technology, which the Chinese do not have. How much can they research-develop and reverse-engineer?”

About the IAF’s FGFA (fifth generation fighter aircraft), former Air Chief P.V. Naik had said that the IAF’s requirement was of a twin-seater, with higher level of avionics, swing role, super cruise capability and long range weapons. In December 2010, India and Russia signed a preliminary design contract to jointly develop a FGFA, on the lines of the twin-engine T-50, also called PAK-FA, Perspective Future Aviation Komplex for Frontline Aviation. The fear is that this project will be subject to the huge delays that have dogged joint ventures with Russia

The US Air Force’s fifth generation stealth fighter F-22 Raptor is already operational. Its F-35 joint strike fighter is under production and in its trial stage, with US as the lead country and nine others in the consortium.

Typhoon, Rafale no match for China

Seriously how stupid do you have to be to read such bull **** stuff..........Indian MMRCA is no where close to the single largest defence deal...anyway.....dream on..........let's see when the first plane arrives and when all are finally inducted.

^^^
I am sorry but without a proper engine and an aesa radar, i don't think J20 is much of a challenge to the other two.

Are you stupid like so many other trolls here?

What do you mean proper engine? It has a proper engine. If it shoots down an aircraft, does it matter what engine the J-20 was flying with?

 

[dbc]

The IAF AMC link YOU posted is Baseless!!

Why because you don't like what the IAF ACM said? I have no interest in debating fiction. If you choose to believe Sancho over the head of the IAF that is your choice.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Why because you don't like what the IAF ACM said? I have no interest in debating fiction. If you choose to believe Sancho over the head of the IAF that is your choice.

No Because I'll trust Empirical statement backed by my experience over YOUR Logic! Since You don't have anything left to debate i am off. My kind regards

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Rafale and Typhoon are 4th generation while J20 is fifth generation fighter.
F22 V J20 and J20 V Pakfa makes sense

 

[timetravel]

5-10 J20s will bite the dust in front of one MKI and Mig 29 even.... let it come to the battle..

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

@fairandunbiased

Your making yourself look like a fool it is better to quit while you're ahead, the Rafale is a 4th gen fighter which would be better compared to the likes of J10 why would u compare it with the J20 which is not even production ready?

Why not? I can say a Ferrari is much better than a sh!t Hyundai, and that's a fact, despite that Hyundais should not be compared with Ferraris because they're not even in the same league.

J-20 is indeed far superior to whatever planes India will acquire in the next 10 years. That's simply a fact.

Another thing to note is that Rafale exists on a brochure for the IAF, but J-20 actually exists and can fly under our own pilots.

 

[Esc8781]

Why not? I can say a Ferrari is much better than a sh!t Hyundai, and that's a fact, despite that Hyundais should not be compared with Ferraris because they're not even in the same league.

J-20 is indeed far superior to whatever planes India will acquire in the next 10 years. That's simply a fact.

Another thing to note is that Rafale exists on a brochure for the IAF, but J-20 actually exists and can fly under our own pilots.

More like Unfair and Biased.

 

[amalakas]

Why not? I can say a Ferrari is much better than a sh!t Hyundai, and that's a fact, despite that Hyundais should not be compared with Ferraris because they're not even in the same league.

J-20 is indeed far superior to whatever planes India will acquire in the next 10 years. That's simply a fact.

Another thing to note is that Rafale exists on a brochure for the IAF, but J-20 actually exists and can fly under our own pilots.

How do you know it is better?

in terms of what?

performance
cost
service life
mtbf
maintenance
range
avionics
usability
availability
servicability
multi role capability

what exactly?


hubris .... you need more patience and clear heads

 

[dbc]

No Because I'll trust Empirical statement backed by my experience over YOUR Logic! Since You don't have anything left to debate i am off. My kind regards

The IAF Chief made that statement after his organization evaluated all MMRCA contestants and yet you dismiss it as baseless. You claim to have the relevant experience and yet you commended Sancho on his assertion that the RBE-2 can track 40 targets simultaneously. Did you ask him for a source? Did you ask him 40 targets at what range? Did you ask him for the RCS and altitude of the target? Is it tracking 40 giant blimps at 20NM in front of its nose OR 40 low flying cruise missile at 180NM.

Sancho claims the APG-79 can track 20 targets, google that claim and see if you get any hits from a reliable source for military information. The APG-79 can produce 2800 beams per second and instantaneously scan everything, it can be used as a powerful jammer, it has the ability to transmit high quality video, it has the capability to interleave ground, surface and air targets. It can track fast moving ground targets. As for situation awareness, FORCEnet plugs the F/A-18 E/F /WSO and E/A-18G driver /ECMO into the C4I network that not only shares data from all assets and sensors in the theater. With ForceNET the F/A-18 E/F crew have access to decision support systems that allows quick effective reaction to evolving battlefield events. The F/A-18 E/F does not need TV, not when it can produce a high resolution SAR-4 image at ranges that far exceeds the capability of Rafale's FSO.

Here is a Youtube video demonstrating the capability of the ELTA-ELL-8251-Escort Jammer System. A POD you can hang on the IAF Rafale like Sancho suggested. This system is flight line programmed based on known threat frequencies and cannot be configured in flight. It does not have the capability to selectively attack,jam or deceive hostile emitters. Neither can it selectively permit or jam com links. In other words, it turns everyone blind not just the enemy.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

How do you know it is better?

in terms of what?

performance
cost
service life
mtbf
maintenance
range
avionics
usability
availability
servicability
multi role capability

what exactly?


hubris .... you need more patience and clear heads

Since its all classified (we don't make brochures for top secret stuff lol) I'll just say one thing: it has a electro-optical distributed aperture system for full angle situational awareness in the IR and visible spectrum, similar to F-35 and PAK-FA, and which distinguishes it (and those 2 planes) from everything else.

 

[Sergi]

Since its all classified (we don't make brochures for top secret stuff lol) I'll just say one thing: it has a electro-optical distributed aperture system for full angle situational awareness in the IR and visible spectrum, similar to F-35 and PAK-FA, and which distinguishes it (and those 2 planes) from everything else.

You may be right but for time being its the fact that Rafale/EF vs J20 is imaginations only. It will be worth talking
When 1. J20 comes out of prototype and get inducted
2. Even after induction PRC won't release or compare it with another A/C.
So it will be only fanboy war

 

[sancho]

The charge of the French cheerleader begins . I believe you are aware of the statement made by the then IAF Air Chief Naik following the down select of EF and Rafale. Let me refresh your memory and put a stop to the 50 cent per post defense of your French patron.

Add the part that you missed out and you will understand where that statement comes from:

the Air Chief said: “In all fairness, all the six aircraft in the competition were good, and more or less close to one another in performance. But some of them had to be out, and some had to be in, and that’s it

The decision was made and he, nor any other IAF official ever stated a single bad word against any of the competitors. But I am used to your distraction tatics of yours, so not surprising.
Btw, I have no doubt that the APG 79 is more proven and offers the longer detection range, but we were talking about situational awareness and in modern fighters that means more that radar detection to the frontal area and exactly that's why the Rafale is superior in this field until the Silent Hornet upgrades will be available.

No Because I'll trust Empirical statement backed by my experience over YOUR Logic! Since You don't have anything left to debate i am off. My kind regards

Don't bother too much about her. She is well known for her US bias, she just couldn't counter the facts that I showed and had to come up with anything. Rafale has clear advantages in SA, because it simply has more and more advanced sensors to add infos, while the F18SH is limited mainly to the radar infos. The Growler offers certain advantages, but since we would get only a Growler Lite (if at all), it's not worth it anyway because SPECTRA comes will all the features in any Rafale.

How do you know it is better?

in terms of what?

That's the point, all we have so far are speculations based on the fact that J20 is a stealth fighter. That itself makes is undeniably a big advantage, but doesn't say anything about it's real performance and systems. It's basically the same as the comparison between F35 and EF, the one is a stealth fighter, the other has more capabilities that are taken to account for a 5th gen fighter. Today we don't know about J20s SC capabilities, nor if it will have IRST or what kind of EW system with what additional sensors..., it might happen that EF and Rafale will be superior in these fields, but the question is will that give them advantages in air combats against each other? I have some doubts on it, but since Rafale is meant to counter J10s and J11s in the first place, jointly with MKIs / Super 30s and FGFA it doesn't really matter anyway.