Twin Engined J-10? What Happened to it

[Armchair]

There was a lot of rumours some time ago of a twin-engined J-10. I remember even Crobato, a well known Chinese poster spoke about it. What happened to this project?

The project interests me because of the recent rumours of a new Chinese aircraft that PAF may be acquiring. A twin-engined J-10 makes perfect sense for the PAF, as the engines will most likely be a RD-33 / WS-13 meaning commonality with the JF-17.

I thought of starting a new thread rather than posting on another thread and derailing that thread.

Here are some things a quick googling brought me (comment by Crobato on SDF):

crobato said:
Sounds really major. More than just a Taihang engine change. I sense that this may be a two engined project with two WS-13s (two Taihangs would force too much structural changes). Rather than produce a full heavyweight fighter in the Su-27 class, this is more of a twin engined medium fighter in the MiG-29/Rafale/Typhoon/Hornet class.

,...
If they ever come up with a twin engined version in the Typhoon weight class, its safe to presume they would stop building the single engined type. Whatever low end would be left to the FC-1, probably even imported from Pakistan. The resources to build such planes would be finite even for Chengdu, and I would probably put it on which plane it would be most effective.

I don't know if the so called stealthy plane and the twin engined plane are one and the same, but in my opinion, most likely are, as it is not efficient to be developing two planes at once. And it probably isn't as stealthy if it decides to recycle as much of the current J-10's front end.

Logically its simpler for the single engined J-10 to follow an upgrade path for the engine, to more powerful versions of the WS-10A or AL-31F. If they are pushing for a twin engined variant, two things must apply.

1. China intends to fully keep the plane domestic, ruling out future versions of the AL-31F or AL-41.

2. China's engine technology still has its limits. It would be easier to achieve the same thrust level with two smaller engines of less thrust combined than one single powerful engine with one overwhelming thrust. Note this lesson applied to the J-8II vs. J-9 development.

3. Chengdu intends to create a larger plane with a bigger wing planform that can hold more hardpoints and weight. Probably means much of the plane from the front end downward may be new, and probably longer.

...

@TheTallGuy didn't want to divert that thread so thought of putting this here.

 

[TheTallGuy]

There was a lot of rumours some time ago of a twin-engined J-10. I remember even Crobato, a well known Chinese poster spoke about it. What happened to this project?

The project interests me because of the recent rumours of a new Chinese aircraft that PAF may be acquiring. A twin-engined J-10 makes perfect sense for the PAF, as the engines will most likely be a RD-33 / WS-13 meaning commonality with the JF-17.

View attachment 643197

I thought of starting a new thread rather than posting on another thread and derailing that thread.

Here are some things a quick googling brought me (comment by Crobato on SDF):



@TheTallGuy didn't want to divert that thread so thought of putting this here.

Dear they have not yet finalized The requirements if they have not done so they would not have started work upon it.

Azm is off shoot of JF17 program(Replica) with chengdu so new designs are there but we(Notice we) have not yet started any work on it...

as to above 2 x engine (RD93/WS13E) are possibilities...but PAF prefers single engine aircraft...they fit right into our requirements as per airspace and fleet maintenance capacity.

The reason i do not agree with Khafee on "Shark" is PAF already rejected Su-27 in 1995-96 why because it was deemed not viable in Indo-Pak Scenario and its purchase and maintaince - you are require to built huge size HAS to place Su-27/30/30MKI or J15 whic it self is huge expense..

So any new induction will be single engine.

 

[mikkix]

Billi k khawab ma chichray

 

[Vapnope]

Twin engine?
J20 maybe, no?

 

[TheTallGuy]

Twin engine?
J20 maybe, no?

that would be a different ball game all together...

 

[SABRE]

There was a lot of rumours some time ago of a twin-engined J-10. I remember even Crobato, a well known Chinese poster spoke about it. What happened to this project?

The project interests me because of the recent rumours of a new Chinese aircraft that PAF may be acquiring. A twin-engined J-10 makes perfect sense for the PAF, as the engines will most likely be a RD-33 / WS-13 meaning commonality with the JF-17.

View attachment 643197

I thought of starting a new thread rather than posting on another thread and derailing that thread.

Here are some things a quick googling brought me (comment by Crobato on SDF):



@TheTallGuy didn't want to divert that thread so thought of putting this here.

I doubt that is going to happen. There is no point in undertaking costly projects when there is a minimum requirement for it. PLAAF is already operating twin J-11, Su-30/J-16, Su-35 & J-20 aircraft. If there is any substance to PAF buying twin-engine aircraft from China it's likely going to be either J-31 or the likes of J-11 or J-16. Latter, however, are unlikely because of possible Russian meddling.

 

[Armchair]

Dear they have not yet finalized The requirements if they have not done so they would not have started work upon it.

Azm is off shoot of JF17 program(Replica) with chengdu so new designs are there but we(Notice we) have not yet started any work on it...

as to above 2 x engine (RD93/WS13E) are possibilities...but PAF prefers single engine aircraft...they fit right into our requirements as per airspace and fleet maintenance capacity.

The reason i do not agree with Khafee on "Shark" is PAF already rejected Su-27 in 1995-96 why because it was deemed not viable in Indo-Pak Scenario and its purchase and maintaince - you are require to built huge size HAS to place Su-27/30/30MKI or J15 whic it self is huge expense..

So any new induction will be single engine.

I understand you don't agree but just to highlight the J-15 - the folding wings would allow them to fit in the PAF HAS. What if the J-15 was a stop-gap to something that was not quickly put together with Ukraine's help to get the first aircraft carriers going?

What if PLAN would like to get closer to US aircraft standards, something it cannot do with the giant J-15s? Additionally, one cannot expect them to fly an all stealth fleet on their aircraft carriers, so J-31 /35s won't alone be enough.

So, PLAN basically needs a Super Hornet or Rafale equivalent. Taking that into account, we have two rumours from two sources (you and Khafee):

1. You've noted its something to do with Chengdu, which means it has to be either a J-10, J-20 or a third something
2. Khafee is adamant its a naval fighter with carrier capability.

Since there is no aircraft that fits the bill, the logical conclusion is:
1. Either you or khafee have it wrong
OR
2. A new aircraft is coming that the world hasn't seen yet.

Since PAF is not known to go with a brand new design that has not been tested, one can assume this is a J-10 or J-20 derivative in some form or another.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I understand you don't agree but just to highlight the J-15 - the folding wings would allow them to fit in the PAF HAS. What if the J-15 was a stop-gap to something that was not quickly put together with Ukraine's help to get the first aircraft carriers going?

What if PLAN would like to get closer to US aircraft standards, something it cannot do with the giant J-15s? Additionally, one cannot expect them to fly an all stealth fleet on their aircraft carriers, so J-31 /35s won't alone be enough.

So, PLAN basically needs a Super Hornet or Rafale equivalent. Taking that into account, we have two rumours from two sources (you and Khafee):

1. You've noted its something to do with Chengdu, which means it has to be either a J-10, J-20 or a third something
2. Khafee is adamant its a naval fighter with carrier capability.

Since there is no aircraft that fits the bill, the logical conclusion is:
1. Either you or khafee have it wrong
OR
2. A new aircraft is coming that the world hasn't seen yet.

Since PAF is not known to go with a brand new design that has not been tested, one can assume this is a J-10 or J-20 derivative in some form or another.

its early concept of in J-10 development history named Super 10, but this project was dead, May be this project revived by CAC for PLAAN needs but it has slim chance against already matured J-15 and if naval version of J-10 is testing than it could be equipped WS-10 rather than a WS-13/RD-93

 

[TheTallGuy]

Since PAF is not known to go with a brand new design that has not been tested, one can assume this is a J-10 or J-20 derivative in some form or another.

why J20 Derivative? why not J20A itself? it is long-shot but under the circumstances(Blood Shed at Galwan and overall arms build up) J20A can be a possibility.

Actually i had no idea about Khafee saying anything about pilots in PRC. that to CAT "A" pilots.

My conclusion is..J10C approximately 2 x Sqn or May Allah make my words true a single 5th Gen 16-18 J20A which will change the matrix upside-down...

 

[Armchair]

why J20 Derivative? why not J20A itself? it is long-shot but under the circumstances(Blood Shed at Galwan and overall arms build up) J20A can be a possibility.

Actually i had no idea about Khafee saying anything about pilots in PRC. that to CAT "A" pilots.

My conclusion is..J10C approximately 2 x Sqn or May Allah make my words true a single 5th Gen 16-18 J20A which will change the matrix upside-down...

Three possibilities: 1) J-10C, 2) J-20 3) Something based on the first 2.

Khafee didn't say Category A pilots, he simply said PAF pilots there to train on the new type. On the other hand, you could be wrong. It may be that they are in Chengdu not because the aircraft they will train on is built there, but simply because Chengdu is familiar to PAF, suitable for pilots and a nearby airbase can simply train them up on the FLANKER variant.

I raised the issue of the hardened shelters in another forum a few weeks back, and it seems this is one advantage of a naval variant - the folding wings means PAF can use current HAS.

If Khafee is right and you are right then it has to be a third type alone - simply because neither the J-10 nor the J-20 in their current forms are naval. Which rationally also precludes PAF going for the J-20 as then they would just go with the J-20 as is - rather than a naval variant. Meaning, its a third type either a J-15 or a new J-10isque derivative.

 

[Akh1112]

such a project existed as a backup to the J-20, obviously the J-20 worked out so this thing never left the drawing board

 

[TheTallGuy]

@Armchair
What i think you are emphasizing on is the Project Azm (Which is in collaboration with Chengdu) but you do not send Cat "A" pilots this early you will send test pilots (we have four) when the prototypes are ready.

Operational Pilots are sent for Initial training and bringing the equipment that is purchased.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Three possibilities: 1) J-10C, 2) J-20 3) Something based on the first 2.

Khafee didn't say Category A pilots, he simply said PAF pilots there to train on the new type. On the other hand, you could be wrong. It may be that they are in Chengdu not because the aircraft they will train on is built there, but simply because Chengdu is familiar to PAF, suitable for pilots and a nearby airbase can simply train them up on the FLANKER variant.

I raised the issue of the hardened shelters in another forum a few weeks back, and it seems this is one advantage of a naval variant - the folding wings means PAF can use current HAS.

If Khafee is right and you are right then it has to be a third type alone - simply because neither the J-10 nor the J-20 in their current forms are naval. Which rationally also precludes PAF going for the J-20 as then they would just go with the J-20 as is - rather than a naval variant. Meaning, its a third type either a J-15 or a new J-10isque derivative.

J-10 or J-20 is not suited for carrier operation these jets have narrowed landing gears not much have wing area to support low speed handling

 

[TheTallGuy]

J-10 or J-20 is not suited for carrier operation these jets have narrowed landing gears not much have wing area to support low speed handling

Since we do not have aircraft carrier, there is not need of J15 (khafee info) i tend to think its PAF J10s or J20A

From Dieno Site
The latest image (October 2019) suggested that J-20A powered by the indigenous WS-10C turbofan with a serrated (sawtooth) nozzle design is in production. The latest rumor (September 2019) claimed that J-20 (J-20B?) was ready to test the newly integrated WS-15 turbofan engine.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Since we do not have aircraft carrier, there is not need of J15 (khafee info) i tend to think its PAF J10s or J20A

From Dieno Site
The latest image (October 2019) suggested that J-20A powered by the indigenous WS-10C turbofan with a serrated (sawtooth) nozzle design is in production. The latest rumor (September 2019) claimed that J-20 (J-20B?) was ready to test the newly integrated WS-15 turbofan engine.

Oh bhai J-20 is out of our reach and every weapons of China is not for export,J-20 is their strategic technology how can they export their strategic tech to Pakistan???
J-10 or customized version of FC-31 will be more probable
And J-10 has less range as a maritime strike jet as compare to J-15
And your logic doesn't make any sense that Pakistan has no carrier so it can't buy J-15

There are lots countries buys F/A 18 that haven't any Aircraft Carriers from USA