Pakistan Deal for Chinese J-10 Fighters Uncertain

[HariPrasad]

More importantly what are the differences between these so called 3rd-4th gen fighters?

Pl Google.

PAF have in its arsenal the F-16's so I am sure they know well enough how capable JF-17 are and which "so-called generation" it belongs to.

Have I said anything about the capability about JF 17??

Being 3th generation doesn't necessarily mean it will be a walk over for 4th gen fighters.

Certainly not walk over but 4th Generation have a significant advantage.

Likewise a 5th gen doesn't necessarily mean that it will better than the 4th gen. It will be good in some and worse in others.

5th generation plane are very difficult to counter because of stealth advantage.

Each plane producing country have their own set of designs and criteras to meet, meaning there is no one bill fit all when it comes down to design. When you try and incorporate too much technologies and criterias to fulfill you will result in something like the F-35 (a bulky "supposedly stealth" fighter with ridiculous payload, lacking maneuverability due to its huge fan for VTOL and tiny wings).

Agreed to a large extent.

 

[Obambam]

Pl Google.

Yes they all have wings, engines and a piece of glass. Only differences are its materials, weapon systems and avionics etc. Meaning planes can be upgraded to perform similarly.

You are emphasizing on the generations and conveniently forgetting that 3rd gen can be upgraded to perform like 4th gens or to be to be more or less equal performance wise.

Have I said anything about the capability about JF 17??

But you are trying very hard to imply that it is a 1st or 2nd gen therefore it sucks, no?

Certainly not walk over but 4th Generation have a significant advantage.

Advantages perhaps, but I would not say "significant", it depends on the scenario and battle theater. Things like ground to air missile systems, radars and number of enemy fighters etc needs to be thrown into the equation.

5th generation plane are very difficult to counter because of stealth advantage.

Watch both videos from beginning to the end. Then you will know how stealth may not work so well under certain circumstances. Besides, these so called 5th gen stealth fighters have yet to test themselves against a decent opponent.

 

[The Deterrent]

@HariPrasad

The Chinese designations for "Generations" of fighter aircraft are different (one less than western). That is why they term J-20 (Western 5th Gen) as 4th Gen and J-10A(Western 4th Gen) as 3rd Gen aircraft. This does not imply that the Chinese fighters (say J-10) are a generation behind their Western counterparts (say F-16) in terms of capabilities.

 

[HariPrasad]

@HariPrasad

The Chinese designations for "Generations" of fighter aircraft are different (one less than western). That is why they term J-20 (Western 5th Gen) as 4th Gen and J-10A(Western 4th Gen) as 3rd Gen aircraft. This does not imply that the Chinese fighters (say J-10) are a generation behind their Western counterparts (say F-16) in terms of capabilities.

Hi Ahaseeb,

J 10 is no match to F 16.

This is a very long discussion. So give it a rest.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Hi Ahaseeb,

J 10 is no match to F 16.

This is a very long discussion. So give it a rest.

J10 is /was a modified lavi (israeli F16 variant with delta wings and canards) with a russian engine and a chinese ASEA radar but it cant match F16 1 on 1 any given day even if its block 52

and chinese know this

 

[The Deterrent]

Hi Ahaseeb,

J 10 is no match to F 16.

This is a very long discussion. So give it a rest.

I am no expert on military aircraft and neither are you, so it would be better to not pass such confident remarks. When respected and credible International Assessment organizations rank J-10 as 4th generation and J-10B as 4+ generation, there is no reason to believe that J-10 is less capable than F-16.
The overall performance variations and standard of equipment and armament used is another matter.

 

[HariPrasad]

Yes they all have wings, engines and a piece of glass. Only differences are its materials, weapon systems and avionics etc. Meaning planes can be upgraded to perform similarly.

You are emphasizing on the generations and conveniently forgetting that 3rd gen can be upgraded to perform like 4th gens or to be to be more or less equal performance wise.

They have all this stuff but of significant different level and that is why they are one generation ahead.

But you are trying very hard to imply that it is a 1st or 2nd gen therefore it sucks, no?

That is your inference and you are entitled to it.

A

dvantages perhaps, but I would not say "significant", it depends on the scenario and battle theater. Things like ground to air missile systems, radars and number of enemy fighters etc needs to be thrown into the equation.

Marginal advantage do not make them next generation Plane. The rest of your post describing scenario is very general and applies to each plane irrespective of generation of plane. But yes, next generation Plane have many new technologies to counter that scenario. e.g 4th generation plane have a radar to track and engage more than one enemy plane and EW suit to Jam enemy missile hence can do batter compare to 3rd generation plane in scenario you cited.

Watch both videos from beginning to the end. Then you will know how stealth may not work so well under certain circumstances. Besides, these so called 5th gen stealth fighters have yet to test themselves against a decent opponent.

Video do not tell you many thing. E.G RSC of the plane. Still I want you to Check video of F22 and tell me which plane can maneuver like that. Simply No other Plane can match that because they do not have the engine which are suitable for 5th Generation Plane.

 

[HariPrasad]

@AhaseebA

I am no expert on military aircraft and neither are you, so it would be better to not pass such confident remarks. When respected and credible International Assessment organizations rank J-10 as 4th generation and J-10B as 4+ generation, there is no reason to believe that J-10 is less capable than F-16.
The overall performance variations and standard of equipment and armament used is another matter.

I show some materials on generation wise list of Planes but I didn't find J 10 in 4th generation list.

I do not see any 4th generation stuff in J 10. Not a very powerful engine with a high T/W ratio, A good Radar or decent BVR. In performance or agility, It can not match F 16 or saab grippen or Mirage 2000 or Mig 29. It can not complete a 360 degree vertical loop because of lack of power of its engine. That is why perhaps Chines media themselves do not claim it to be a forth generation plane.

Any way If you think J 10 if 4th generation than it is fine. You are entitled to your views.

 

[Obambam]

They have all this stuff but of significant different level and that is why they are one generation ahead.

What do you mean "exactly" when you say it is "one generation ahead"? It is merely a western way of categorizing their aircraft. It does not mean other countries has to carry the same label.

That is your inference and you are entitled to it.

Is that not yours? You are confidently saying that the J-10 is 3rd gen and then implying that the J-17 is less and how F-16 is 4th gen therefore is better without any form of data backing it up?

Marginal advantage do not make them next generation Plane.

Does whatever label honestly mean that much? So a product labeled one is supposedly inferior to a product labeled two or three. But have you checked what is inside the product?

The rest of your post describing scenario is very general and applies to each plane irrespective of generation of plane. But yes, next generation Plane have many new technologies to counter that scenario. e.g 4th generation plane have a radar to track and engage more than one enemy plane and EW suit to Jam enemy missile hence can do batter compare to 3rd generation plane in scenario you cited.

So by classifying J-10 as 3rd gen and J-17 as 1-2 gen, are you saying they do not have radars, cannot engage in more than one target and are incapable of performing electronic counter measures?

Video do not tell you many thing. E.G RSC of the plane.

Then provide me a video that tells readers here of J-17 or J-10's radar cross section before passing personal judgments, expecting readers to mindlessly accept your words as gospel. I doubt you would find relevant data for the F-22 either. These data you speak of are highly classified.

 

[grey boy 2]

@AhaseebA




I show some materials on generation wise list of Planes but I didn't find J 10 in 4th generation list.

I do not see any 4th generation stuff in J 10. Not a very powerful engine with a high T/W ratio, A good Radar or decent BVR. In performance or agility, It can not match F 16 or saab grippen or Mirage 2000 or Mig 29. It can not complete a 360 degree vertical loop because of lack of power of its engine. That is why perhaps Chines media themselves do not claim it to be a forth generation plane.

Any way If you think J 10 if 4th generation than it is fine. You are entitled to your views.

So much for a self-proclaimed "military expert", just a simple google search will sure help, or may be i'm asking for too much since i heard there're a lot of "BOYS" house in India while 6-7 boys living together sharing everything they have including a computer

4th Generation Fighter Aircraft

Fourth-generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HariPrasad]

What do you mean "exactly" when you say it is "one generation ahead"? It is merely a western way of categorizing their aircraft. It does not mean other countries has to carry the same label.

Pl educate yourself I am not here to educate you.

Is that not yours? You are confidently saying that the J-10 is 3rd gen and then implying that the J-17 is less and how F-16 is 4th gen therefore is better without any form of data backing it up?

Not only I am saying. I am just Quoting from your media. Go and tell them.

Does whatever label honestly mean that much? So a product labeled one is supposedly inferior to a product labeled two or three. But have you checked what is inside the product?

If you are not capable enough to comprehend a simple sentence, I am in no mood to discuss with you. You can continue your ranting.

So by classifying J-10 as 3rd gen and J-17 as 1-2 gen, are you saying they do not have radars, cannot engage in more than one target and are incapable of performing electronic counter measures?

Your media tells J 10 a third generation plane not I alone. I didn't say J 17 a 1st or 2nd generation plane. That is your typical Chinese ranting and a product of your belief that JF 17 is inferior to J 10. If some body (Your media) say that J 10 is third Generation, You infer JF 17 as a 1st or 2nd generation Plane.

Then provide me a video that tells readers here of J-17 or J-10's radar cross section before passing personal judgments, expecting readers to mindlessly accept your words as gospel. I doubt you would find relevant data for the F-22 either. These data you speak of are highly classified.

When I said that vedio can not provide you Information about RSC, why do you ask for video in support of RSC? learn to understand the stuff somebody writes and do not argue our BS without subject knowledge and even proper understanding of post.

 

[Obambam]

Pl educate yourself I am not here to educate you.



Not only I am saying. I am just Quoting from your media. Go and tell them.



If you are not capable enough to comprehend a simple sentence, I am in no mood to discuss with you. You can continue your ranting.

Is that all you have got? looks like you just got your *** busted there.
You are entitled to your own believes of course. I have no issues with delusional ignoramuses who believes in whatever they choose to believe in. So long they don't come out stating without proof spewing rubbish and expecting everyone to take their words as gospel truth.

 

[Obambam]

Your media tells J 10 a third generation plane not I alone.

Then answer this one simple question:

"Does J-17 and J-10 have radars?"

According to what you have written 4th gen possess radars and 3rd gen does not, am I correct? if so what do you make of it?

I didn't say J 17 a 1st or 2nd generation plane. That is your typical Chinese ranting and a product of your belief that JF 17 is inferior to J 10. If some body (Your media) say that J 10 is third Generation, You infer JF 17 as a 1st or 2nd generation Plane.

Did you not say you have argued with Chinese posters in the past that J-10 is a 3rd gen? If so then answer the above question and re-read what you have posted about 4th gen having radars, ew suite and how it can engage more than one target. Something you said 3rd gen does not have? Are you disagreeing with yourself already?

When I said that vedio can not provide you Information about RSC, why do you ask for video in support of RSC? learn to understand the stuff somebody writes and do not argue our BS without subject knowledge and even proper understanding of post.

Sure, provide us with "literature" supporting your claims. You couldn't even find the true RCS of J-17 let alone F-22. So spare us of the "stealth" bs already.

If you watch the video you will understand that "Stealth" is bs. Should readers believe in you or Pierre Sprey (an aircraft designer, defense analyst)?

Here, in case you missed the video:

 

[GURU DUTT]

J 10 B is a great plane and far far better for chinese as second line defence/gap fillers till the J31 & J20 5th gen planes arrive as against JF17 which to me looks more like a test bed for techs developed for J10

as for pakistan J10B will be more than a handfull for IAF to handle if in good numbers(at least 10 squads) and ASEA & other stand off wepons and BVRAAMs to counter M2K,MIG 29 & SU30MKI combo

 

[HariPrasad]

Then answer this one simple question:

"Does J-17 and J-10 have radars?"

According to what you have written 4th gen possess radars and 3rd gen does not, am I correct? if so what do you make of it?



Did you not say you have argued with Chinese posters in the past that J-10 is a 3rd gen? If so then answer the above question and re-read what you have posted about 4th gen having radars, ew suite and how it can engage more than one target. Something you said 3rd gen does not have? Are you disagreeing with yourself already?




Sure, provide us with "literature" supporting your claims. You couldn't even find the true RCS of J-17 let alone F-22. So spare us of the "stealth" bs already.

If you watch the video you will understand that "Stealth" is bs. Should readers believe in you or Pierre Sprey (an aircraft designer, defense analyst)?

Here, in case you missed the video:

Man you have serious comprehension problem. Stop yourself from being ridicule on PDF. Your understanding level is so low to argue with. I repent replying you so seriously for long time. Read my posts again perhaps you will get an Idea what I want to say. Get yourself educated than we shall discuss some topic some time in future. Good bye and close from my side.