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What you are saying DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.....Let me point out a few "For instance"

You said



If the coup planner realise they only got little/limited support and follower? Why follow thru the coup in the first place?

This is a coup we are talking about, we cannot be just saying "Let's do this and hope other people will join in later?"

You start a coup at the GREATEST of your strength, not the weakest.

and then you said



How Erdogan know who was targeting them and how to regain support for just 24 hours? We learn from coup from Thailand and we can see the military junta need at least 7 days to clean house, and by that time the government then know what hit them. Problem is, the coup started for 24 hours, and there are information feedback to Erdogan that quickly and know all the deposition of the rebel and how their support network fare?

I mean you are talking about some capability even above American Counter-Intelligence, now I don't know how much CI Turkey have invested, but seems like it is unlikely that Erdogan would have a clear picture and a solution to the problem with just 24 hours. You can kill a coup, but most definitely would take you more than 1 day to do it.

Then you said



Well, how they missed him by just 20 minutes? And why no attempt even been make to the number 2? The Prime Minister? They know the location of Erdogan, they would have attack him as the first step of the coup, You do nothing until everyone that can make shot was either killed or imprisoned. The fact is the Top 3 (The President, the Prime Minister, The Minister of Interior) Do remember Turkey have a civilian government, which give control and overseer of Turkish Armed Force the job of the above people, none of them were targeted (Beside Erdogan of course) and the Rebel go after Chief Of Staff of the Military first??

I don't know about my analyst is "reaching" your standard. I myself is a military man, I have friend in Turkey Military, I have a background of Cavalrymen and Counter Intelligence if you think my point is shit, well, that's up to you.


You make good points, but I think the most like explanation is that the plotters fell into a trap.

This is the scenario which I think makes the most sense. It seems possible that Erdogan and his intelligence knew about the plot. Instead of trying to quash it, they figured it would be better to infiltrate it and help it fail. Which, if you think about it, makes more sense. Imagine even if Erdogan and his team heard about a plot, they suddenly attempted to arrest them. The plotters would claim it was false, and then Erdogan would get the blame for trying to undermine the militarily.

The best choice would be to let it go on, but have trust worthy generals and officials pretend they are joining the coup too. So, Erdogan's side would have agents inside so he would have full info of what they plan to do and also enough players to pull back the support the plotters thought they had.

To me something like this makes the most sense.

Talking about fanaticism, you should look at the minions of the assad regime on this forum. One of them posts at least ten or twenty new threads everyday to show how the blood thirsty regime is winning on every front.

Who?
 
You make good points, but I think the most like explanation is that the plotters fell into a trap.

This is the scenario which I think makes the most sense. It seems possible that Erdogan and his intelligence knew about the plot. Instead of trying to quash it, they figured it would be better to infiltrate it and help it fail. Which, if you think about it, makes more sense. Imagine even if Erdogan and his team heard about a plot, they suddenly attempted to arrest them. The plotters would claim it was false, and then Erdogan would get the blame for trying to undermine the militarily.

The best choice would be to let it go on, but have trust worthy generals and officials pretend they are joining the coup too. So, Erdogan's side would have agents inside so he would have full info of what they plan to do and also enough players to pull back the support the plotters thought they had.

To me something like this makes the most sense.



Who?

Oh well, as I said in my post earlier,

Either this have government behind this, or the people who start this is stupid enough to think they can win without actually trying to win it.......

Either way, I am just trying to make sense of what happen.
 
Turkish generals convicted by courts for plots against govts
By Sabir Shah
July 17, 2016
Print : National


LAHORE: Hundreds of Turkish Army officers, including strong generals at the helm of affairs, have been handcuffed and consequently convicted during the past decade or so for orchestrating coups, research shows.

Army officials were particularly tried during incumbent President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s tenure as Premier—a key factor behind Saturday’s unsuccessful military intervention.

Many of these men clad in uniforms were accused of having been the members of a clandestine organization called "Ergenekon,” while others were convicted in a separate case called "Sledgehammer.”

The following are some of the most senior Turkish military officers who were made to stand in the dock for trial:

General Ilker Basbug, Commander of the Turkish Armed Forces from 2008 to 2010, was jailed for life on August 5, 2013 for his involvement in alleged coup plots. Life sentences were also handed down to 16 of his 274 fellow defendants.

Gen Basbug was arrested on January 5, 2012 and accused of leading a terrorist group attempting to topple the then Prime Minister Erdogan's Justice and Development (AK) Party government.

His arrest followed allegations made by officers involved in another trial that he ordered the creation of anti-government websites. He rejected the charges, describing as "tragicomic" attempts to implicate him in terrorist activity. General Hasan Igsiz, a former head of the prestigious First Army and deputy chief of the general staff operations department, was sentenced to life in August 2013 too.

He was found guilty of orchestrating an internet campaign to discredit Erdogan. He was arrested in August 2011.

General Cetin Dogan, another former First Army commander, was alleged to have carried out a dress rehearsal for a coup in 2003. He was arrested in July 2010 and in September 2012, he was sentenced to 20 years in jail for plotting a coup.

Admiral Ozden Ornek, the Turkish Navy chief between 2003 and 2005, was alleged of writing a diary containing action plans for three coups.

The diary was published by a magazine in 2007, which was subsequently closed down by military prosecutors. He maintains that the diary was forged.

He was arrested in July 2010 and in September 2012, he was convicted and sentenced to 20 years in jail.

General (R) Veli Kucuk was accused in October 2008 of running a secret unit within the police responsible for bombing and killings.

He was arrested in July 2008 and sentenced to life in August 2013.

General Sener Eruygur, the former head of the Gendarmerie General Command, was alleged to have taken part in two coup attempts in 2004, and was indicted in March 2009. He was also sentenced to life in prison in August 2013.

General Halil Ibrahim Firtina, Turkish Air Force Commander from 2003 to 2005, was arrested in July 2010, and sentenced to 20 years in jail in September 2012.

General Aytac Yalman, the Land forces commander between 2002 and 2004, was arrested in July 2010.

General Nusret Tasdelen, the former head of the Turkish Army's educational command, was apprehended in August 2011 for setting up anti-Erdogan websites. He too was sentenced to life in August 2013.

General Ismail Pekin, the former General Staff Intelligence Chief, was arrested in August 2011 and subsequently sentenced to seven years in jail.

Earlier in January 2012, a Turkish court had accepted the indictments against General Kenan Evren and General Tahsin Sahinkaya, the only coup leaders still alive at the time, for their role in the 1980 coup.

Both retired generals were sentenced to life imprisonment in June 2014 by a court in Ankara.

While General General Tahsinkaya had died at age 90 in a military hospital in Istanbul on July 9, 2015, General Evren had died at an Ankara military hospital on May 9, 2015, aged 97.

Martial Laws in Turkey:

History shows that since the foundation of the Republic of Turkey in October 1923, the military has conducted as many as four coups and had then gone on to impose martial law.

Seeking help from an April 4, 2012 report of the “Al-Jazeera” Television, one finds that the first coup in the Turkish republic took place in 1960.

The ruling Democratic Party, headed by prime minister Adnan Menderes and president Celal Bayar, had begun to loosen some of the toughest Ataturk-era rules by allowing thousands of mosques to reopen.

They had legalised the call to prayer in Arabic (instead of Turkish), and opened new schools for religious personnel. The then ruling regime had also shortened the period of mandatory military service.

The afore-cited “Al-Jazeera” report states: “At the same time, it further alienated the opposition by imposing restrictive new press laws and occasionally barring critical newspapers from publishing. Growing tensions caused the Menderes government to impose martial law in early 1960. The army stepped in and toppled the government on May 27; the president, prime minister and several cabinet members were arrested and quickly tried for treason and other offences. Menderes was executed. General Cemal Gursel assumed power - as both President and Prime Minister - beginning a period of military-dominated politics that would last until 1965.”

The second coup took place in 1971 after the Turkish economy had stagnated in the late 1960s, and the recession had caused widespread unrest.

Workers' groups were seen staging vociferous and violent demonstrations on the streets, and the currency was devalued in 1960. The annual inflation in Turkey had reached nearly 80 per cent.

“Al-Jazeera” had reported: “So in March, the military had intervened once again, an effort to "restore order.” Memduh Tagmac, the chief of the general staff, gave a memorandum to the Prime Minister, Suleyman Demirel. It accused his government of driving the country into anarchy, and demanded the formation of a "strong and credible government.... inspired by Ataturk's views. Demirel resigned hours later, after meeting with his cabinet. The military did not rule directly during this period. It first asked Nihat Erim, a member of the right-wing Republican People's Party, to form a caretaker government; it was the first of several which governed Turkey until 1973, when Fahri Koruturk (a retired naval officer) was installed as president by the parliament.”

The 1980 coup was the bloodiest of all. Instability had reigned supreme even after the 1971 coup.

Turkey changed Prime Ministers 11 times in the 1970s, the economy continued to stagnate, and left- and right-wing groups continued their violent clashes in the streets. Thousands of people were assassinated.

The September 1980 Turkish coup was headed by Chief of the General Staff, General Kenan Evren.

According to the 55-year old “Hurriyet” newspaper, the 1980 coup had rounded up members of both the left and right for trial with military tribunals.

Research shows that the 1970s in Turkey were marked by right-wing/left-wing armed conflicts, often at the scale of proxy wars between the United States and the Soviet Union.

The “Al-Jazeera” had maintained: “The military began discussing a possible coup in late 1979, and in March 1980, a group of generals recommended that they move forward. It was delayed several times, and finally launched in September, when officers announced on state television that they were imposing martial law and dissolving the government. Evren became president, and a naval officer, Bulend Ulusu, assumed the post of Prime Minister. These years of military rule did bring some stability to Turkey. Ulusu was succeeded in 1983 by Turgut Ozal, who was widely credited with stabilising the Turkish economy by privatising many state-owned industries. Inflation dropped and employment grew.”

According to the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, 650,000 people were arrested after the 1980 coup, as many as 1,683,000 people were blacklisted, some 230,000 people were tried in 210,000 lawsuits, another 7,000 people were recommended for the death penalty and 517 persons were sentenced to death. Of these, 50 were executed and the files of 259 people, which had been recommended for the death penalty, were sent to the National Assembly.

Not fewer than 98,404 people were tried on charges of being members of a leftist, a rightist, a nationalist, a conservative, etc. organisation.

Over 388,000 Turks were denied a passport, 30,000 people were dismissed from their firms because they were suspects. Another 14,000 people had their citizenship revoked, 30,000 people went abroad as political refugees, 300 people had died in a suspicious manner, 171 people had died by reason of torture, 937 films were banned because they were found objectionable, 23,677 associations had their activities stopped, 3,854 teachers, 120 lecturers and 47 judges were dismissed, and over 400 journalists were recommended a total of 4,000 years imprisonment.

There were 300 days in which newspapers were not published, 303 cases were opened against 13 major newspapers, 39 tonnes of newspapers and magazines were destroyed, 299 people had lost their lives in prison, 144 people had died in a suspicious manner in prison, 14 people had expired in hunger strikes in prison, 16 people were shot while fleeing and 95 people were killed in combat.

From December 1983, the military rule was gradually withdrawn. It was finally lifted throughout Turkey in July 1987.

It is worth recalling that on July 1, 1982, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France and the Netherlands had filed an application against Turkey with the European Commission of Human Rights.

In December 1985, a friendly settlement was reached that demanded that Turkey should lift Martial Law within 18 months. Turkey did as requested, only to replace Martial Law with an Emergency.

In 1997, the Turkish military had issued a series of "recommendations," which the government had no choice but to accept.

The 1995 election had actually led to overwhelming gains for the Islamist Welfare party, which took power the following year as the head of a coalition government.

Prime Minister, Necmettin Erbakan, had agreed to a compulsory eight-year education programme in order to prevent students from enrolling in religious schools. The headscarf was banned at universities too.

Premier Erbakan was then forced to resign. The Welfare party was shut down in 1998, and Erbakan was banned from politics for five years.

Some former members of the party, including current President and former Prime Minister, Erdogan, had eventually gone on to found the Justice and Development Party.
 
160 civilians dead
1440 civilians wounded
Caused by Fetö mob during the coupe attempt

2800 military personnel
2500 judges
have been arrested for their participation in the coupe attempt and for being a part of the Fetö illégal organisation.

2500 Judges ? Within 24 hours, Erdogan identified the judges who had sympathies for Coup makers ? Without any of them passing any judgement in favor of coup makers ?
 
You make good points, but I think the most like explanation is that the plotters fell into a trap.

This is the scenario which I think makes the most sense. It seems possible that Erdogan and his intelligence knew about the plot. Instead of trying to quash it, they figured it would be better to infiltrate it and help it fail. Which, if you think about it, makes more sense. Imagine even if Erdogan and his team heard about a plot, they suddenly attempted to arrest them. The plotters would claim it was false, and then Erdogan would get the blame for trying to undermine the militarily.

The best choice would be to let it go on, but have trust worthy generals and officials pretend they are joining the coup too. So, Erdogan's side would have agents inside so he would have full info of what they plan to do and also enough players to pull back the support the plotters thought they had.

To me something like this makes the most sense.



Who?

Why do you pretend that you're blind?
 
You make good points, but I think the most like explanation is that the plotters fell into a trap.

This is the scenario which I think makes the most sense. It seems possible that Erdogan and his intelligence knew about the plot. Instead of trying to quash it, they figured it would be better to infiltrate it and help it fail. Which, if you think about it, makes more sense. Imagine even if Erdogan and his team heard about a plot, they suddenly attempted to arrest them. The plotters would claim it was false, and then Erdogan would get the blame for trying to undermine the militarily.

The best choice would be to let it go on, but have trust worthy generals and officials pretend they are joining the coup too. So, Erdogan's side would have agents inside so he would have full info of what they plan to do and also enough players to pull back the support the plotters thought they had.

To me something like this makes the most sense.



Who?

Something is definitely odd. They have arrested 2500 Judges within a day. How do they know that these judges were supporting coup without any of them judges passing any judgement ?
 
And the events of 15th July only prove that Erdogan was right to cleanse the military of these traitors. The coup has failed because of his previous homework. Morsi couldn't do it in Egypt and the price for that failure was paid by the new born democracy in Egypt.
 
Something is definitely odd. They have arrested 2500 Judges within a day. How do they know that these judges were supporting coup without any of them judges passing any judgement ?

Arrest based on suspicion, is it new in this world? Are you going to say it is wrong? You know what I am going to say if you say it is wrong, don't you? I will give you just one clue, it happens in BD regularly, there is also precedence of verdicts based on hearsay.
 
Why do you pretend that you're blind?

The only two people who constantly spam that thread is the Israeli Jihadist & the Chinese/Canadian/Russian/I don't know which nationality troll.
 
This coup came after Erdogan's apology from Russia and expression of good ties with Syria.
Hopefully Turks have timely guessed the situation and prevented their country to be course of Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Libya.
 
I have seen a lot of videos where soldiers couldn't open fire and they just retreat while facing unarmed mob I think it is sad these people are good and nationalist turks who wanted to retake their country from the mad man Erdogan and his ideology take a look at the pictures or go down in the streets and see where is you country going even a kid can see it you will accept Erdogan and his ideology or you are going down

I am a muslim and I want all muslim countries be fine.Egypt is really deserves the best like us but If you want to see a mad man look to your SİSİ.
Like our brave people many Egptians did the same to protect democracy and they are killed.You lost much more brave people than us.Yes I know Mursi couldnt do much about economy and others but they got many sabotages all around the world.
Erdogan is a great leader Just show me one leader in the world who is a dictator and people save him.
These taiators are the soilders of Fetullah Gulen who is pupet of westerns (like your Sisi.)
Who cliams Erdogan as a dictator doesnt know what dictator means.

I have seen a lot of videos where soldiers couldn't open fire and they just retreat while facing unarmed mob I think it is sad these people are good and nationalist turks who wanted to retake their country from the mad man Erdogan and his ideology take a look at the pictures or go down in the streets and see where is you country going even a kid can see it you will accept Erdogan and his ideology or you are going down
Yes most our soldiers didnt open fire because they know they are getting wrong orders.They know they are soilders of Turkey not Pensilvanya located F.Gulen.I am sure you know where Pensilvanya is.I cant call soilders killing their own people as nationlists, we call them taitors.

they say 2700 judge is out of his position why do you think that of course these judges were not in the streets with guns they just wont accept him as supreme ruler or an ottoman caliph

What are you talking about.?These Judges jailed real patriot generals in to the prisons.They are lawyers but they made crimes. Laws didnt give permission to Erdogan jail them in to Prison till this day.If he was a dictator he arrested them many months ago but he couldnt. He acted in under the laws of Turkey.Just only itself shows he is not a dictator.
Good chance to you with your Sisi we will go on with Erdogan and time will show whose choice is right.

Something is definitely odd. They have arrested 2500 Judges within a day. How do they know that these judges were supporting coup without any of them judges passing any judgement ?
As I said my past post they made many crimes with power of law and They also protect each other with the power of law which laws give them as a lawyer.
They were under investigation for two years.These are not arrested for only coup they are arrested for being member of F.Gulen's terorist organisations.
Most of them escape to America when investigations began.Most of them are living in abroad for many years.
 
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The unnessecary loss of life was unfortunate, I send my condolence to the people of Turkey.

I noticed that Erdogan mentions "democracy" so much but apparently he is mainly concerned about his own power . There is no justification for this weird "purging" of the juridicial system. He seems so eager just to purge the army and strengthen his own position no matter the cost. I saw a photo of pro-govt people lashing some lying soldiers. The soldiers are (and SHOULD be) following orders based on a simple chain of command. The bulk of those 1,500 soldiers should be released if there's going to be a fair judicial system. We also purged our powerful, US-trained Army after the 1979 Revolution because of their role in suppressing the protests. Many were executed and dismissed, and the chaos let Saddam capture teritories. I think that was a grave mistake. In the initial stage of the war we lacked trained manpower, many of those dismissed personnel joined the battlefield voluntarily.

I also want to ask Turkey stop the influx of bearded mofos into Syria. Don't be like Al Saud. The regional countries should focus on defeating ISIS.

I cant call soilders killing their own people as nationlists, we call them taitors.
.
Is there any pic or video showing soldiers deliberately killing civilians? Or are the civilians were killed in cross-fire? The number if civilian casualties was relatively small. I'm sure the bulk of those soldiers didn't want this.
 
Is there any pic or video showing soldiers deliberately killing civilians? Or are the civilians were killed in cross-fire? The number if civilian casualties was relatively small. I'm sure the bulk of those soldiers didn't want this
Yes many.We see the orders on TV.They used whats up group for communications.
 
What you are saying DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.....Let me point out a few "For instance"

You said



If the coup planner realise they only got little/limited support and follower? Why follow thru the coup in the first place?

This is a coup we are talking about, we cannot be just saying "Let's do this and hope other people will join in later?"

You start a coup at the GREATEST of your strength, not the weakest.

and then you said



How Erdogan know who was targeting them and how to regain support for just 24 hours? We learn from coup from Thailand and we can see the military junta need at least 7 days to clean house, and by that time the government then know what hit them. Problem is, the coup started for 24 hours, and there are information feedback to Erdogan that quickly and know all the deposition of the rebel and how their support network fare?

I mean you are talking about some capability even above American Counter-Intelligence, now I don't know how much CI Turkey have invested, but seems like it is unlikely that Erdogan would have a clear picture and a solution to the problem with just 24 hours. You can kill a coup, but most definitely would take you more than 1 day to do it.

Then you said



Well, how they missed him by just 20 minutes? And why no attempt even been make to the number 2? The Prime Minister? They know the location of Erdogan, they would have attack him as the first step of the coup, You do nothing until everyone that can make shot was either killed or imprisoned. The fact is the Top 3 (The President, the Prime Minister, The Minister of Interior) Do remember Turkey have a civilian government, which give control and overseer of Turkish Armed Force the job of the above people, none of them were targeted (Beside Erdogan of course) and the Rebel go after Chief Of Staff of the Military first??

I don't know about my analyst is "reaching" your standard. I myself is a military man, I have friend in Turkey Military, I have a background of Cavalrymen and Counter Intelligence if you think my point is shit, well, that's up to you.

Coup planner had no other alternative to throw Erdogan but plan and go with limited manpower and resources. That is not a rocket science to understand. Anyone aware of reality in Turkey knows it. But your line of questions are only novice will pose not a military man who has at least some level of strategic understanding. Besides, looks like for "coup" you have a very scripted plot, action and consequences in your mind. But you utterly failed to realize every situation is not to be run according to script in your mind.
 

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