UzaySan
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Turkish Naval Programs
- Thread starter Quwa
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Kamil_baku
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it takes too long....
Ruhnama
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ANMDT
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An indigineous design takes long time, especially if we are talking about a system which we havent designed before. Only with some ToT like TCG anadolu or T129, we might pull it back to pre 2030s. I have a sense that,we will eventually find a partner for Milden.
Designing a submarine takes long time. If you dont have a base design, if its your first time it may take even longer.
HRK
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Using mobile to access the forum and in mobile screen all three option to rate the post appears too close to each other, so I wanted to rate your post with thnx but must have mistakenly pressed negative marking.
Thnx that you brought this into my notice mistake has been rectified
Regards
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Silahtar
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Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project
by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ
The existing Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cell (PEM Fuel Cell) technology used in the Type 214TN REİS Class Submarine, which is currently being built for the Turkish Navy at Gölcük Shipyard, is well above the level currently reached by Turkish Defence and Aviation Industry companies and institutions (5kW) in terms of power capacity. In order to strengthen the existing infrastructure in the field of PEM Fuel Cells in Turkey, to meet the possible PEM Fuel Cell module needs of REİS Class Submarines at home with national resources and to adopt the system in the National Submarine (MİLDEN) project, the SSB initiated the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project in 2018 by aiming a slightly higher power capacity than the Type 214.
Before the project, in order to determine the level of existing domestic facilities, capabilities and infrastructure for nationally developing the Main Propulsion System, Fuel Cell System, Hydrogen Reformer and/or Storage System, Enhanced Lead-acid Batteries or Alternative Technology Batteries, the SSB issued a R&D Wide Area Call for the Development of Marine Propulsion System in March 2017 and asked the relevant local companies/institutions/organizations to submit the required information by May 18, 2017. The Wide Area Call for Development of Naval Platforms Propulsion System was issued to identify local companies/institutions/organizations interested in the project, to determine the design, production and testing capabilities, to determine the current and completed R&D projects/studies of local companies/institutions/organizations, to evaluate related R&D project proposals, and to obtain the information required to identify projects and project models to be launched.
The SSB has initiated the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project for the establishment of national infrastructure to meet the PEM Fuel Cell, and Fuel Reformer (Methyl Alcohol will be used and only for MİLDEN) needs for the Type 214TN REIS Class and MİLDEN Submarines. Within the scope of the project, an invitation to tender (ITT) was submitted to Aspilsan, Roketsan, Vestel Defence, and TÜBİTAK MRC companies, and the first bids were sent to the SSB in September 2018. Because TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute could not submit a bid on its own due to its corporate identity, it submitted its proposal as a subcontractor enabling it to work with these three companies. According to the information received from Vestel Defence and TÜBİTAK MRC officials who participated in the project during the IDEF ‘19 Fair and TeknoFest 2019 Aviation, Space and Technology Festival held at Istanbul ATATÜRK Airport on September 17-22, 2019; TÜBİTAK MRC submitted two separate bids to Vestel Defence and Aspilsan and also made an offer to Roketsan only for the Reformer. According to the information I gathered, the negotiations with the SSB regarding the proposals which were submitted in September 2018 for different variants (both with and without the Reformer) were completed in the summer of 2019. However, as the SSB requested a final price reduction, the companies are continuing their studies as of September 18, 2019. If there are no surprises in the project, the winner is expected to be selected by the end of this year, and the contract is expected to be signed in January 2020. Within this framework, Vestel Defence, one of the candidate companies, started its preliminary studies on several different components.
Currently, there are two PEM Fuel Cell modules with a capacity of 120kW (total 240 kilowatts) in REİS Class, while the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project targets a total net power of 300kW and a gross power of approximately 360-370kW. This goal is planned to be achieved with six fuel cell modules with a 60-65kW power capacity, each of which is of domestic design and production. According to the information we have obtained, in the first phase of the Project, a Fuel Cell with a capacity of 65kW will be developed and produced with national capabilities and delivered to the SSB for testing. After the tests, if the product is successful, mass production of 6 65kW Fuel Cell modules will begin.
TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute is currently the most experienced center in the field of Fuel Cells in our country. The company, which has been working on several Fuel Cell technologies since 2000, has taken part in the development of Fuel Cell Technologies for clean energy generation which includes the establishment of a 1.5kW PEM type Fuel Cell System in 2003-2004, the development and production of Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM) Fuel Cell Module Components which aims to develop and produce an indigenous 3-cell Fuel Cell and its components with domestic resources in 2004-2006, the production and integration of Direct Sodium Borohydride Fuel Cells with the aim of developing 70-100W capacity Direct Sodium Borohydride Fuel Cells between 2004-2007 including end-user integration, Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cell Modeling and Bipolar Plate Production for the production of membrane and bipolar plates to be used in this battery with a PEM type Fuel Cell design with a capacity of 1kW between 2006-2008, TARAL 1007- Fuel Cell Micro Cogeneration System, which aims to produce 5kW of electricity and 30kW of heat energy from fossil gases by using Fuel Cells and catalytic combustion systems in 2006-2010, the development of a Direct Sodium Boron Hydride Fuel Cell System for stationary applications where the aim is to develop a 1kW Direct Sodium Boron Hydride Fuel Cell system prototype in 2008-2010, and the Sodium Borohydride Fuel Cell Vehicle Projects which aim to develop a 3kW PEM type Fuel Cell to produce hydrogen from Borohydride for vehicle applications in 2009-2011. Due to its experience in Fuel Cell technology, TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute cooperated with the three companies competing in the tender and submitted its proposals to these companies as a subcontractor. Vestel Defence, which was established at the end 2003, identified Hydrogen Technology and Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Systems as two main fields of its activity. Since 2004, the company has invested approximately US$30 Million (half of this figure has been funded with government subsidies) to date in the field of Fuel Cell technology. Thanks to this investment, the most comprehensive hydrogen techniques, and Fuel Cell Laboratory have been established. Thanks to various successful R&D projects and university-industry collaborations, Vestel Defence has produced multiple products in this field and has carried out studies mainly on Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC) technology. In this context, the 3kW (this is the net power value; the gross power value is 5kW) Auxiliary Power Unit Project (ZAYGÜP) for Armored Vehicles, which was signed with the Presidency of Defence Industries (SSB) in 2009, was successfully completed in 2015 (There was a 2-year delay due to R&D activities) and delivered its outputs. In addition to Solid Oxide Fuel Cells with very high-efficiency levels, Vestel Defence, which conducts various studies on PEM (Proton Exchange Membrane) Type Fuel Cell technologies (5-10W PEM Design, 20-50W Methanol PEM Design, 5-10W Sodium Borohydride PEM Design, and 500W Sodium Borohydride PEM Design), is one of the three companies currently competing in the Submarine Propulsion System Development Project for Type 214TN REİS Class and MİLDEN Class Submarines.
Although Aspilsan lacks the knowledge and infrastructure compared to TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute and Vestel Defence on Fuel Cells, recently, it has hired experienced engineers both from Turkey and abroad to provide support for the project. In this context, for example, the company has hired a Turkish engineer in recent years who has worked for ten years at the institute, which provided the PEM Fuel Cell technology to Siemens from Germany. Aspilsan also received approval in the last quarter of 2018 for its project on the Cylindrical Li-Ion Battery production infrastructure. According to the information we have obtained, a facility will be established in Kayseri to allow the production of 7,200 batteries per shift. The company has opened a new Design Office in TeknoPark Istanbul as well. Lithium-Ion type domestic production new generation batteries are also expected to be used in MİLDEN platforms.
We had a short interview with the Vestel Defence Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Department Technical Lead during the IDEF 2019 Fair about Vestel Defence’s work on Fuel Cell technology and its existing infrastructure and Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project.
Defence Turkey: Can you give us information about the capacity of Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project and PEM Fuel Cell modules that will be produced with national resources within the scope of the Project?
Vestel Defence: A total of three companies, Roketsan, Aspilsan, and Vestel Defence, were invited to the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project tender. Additionally, TÜBİTAK MRC was invited as a subcontractor. The main reason for this is that TÜBİTAK is actually a research institute. There are some differences in the proposed offer for the new submarine, which cannot be found in the Type 214. As you know, Fuel Cells require hydrogen and oxygen to generate power. Oxygen already exists under the sea in liquid form. There are tanks for storing liquid oxygen onboard, but not for hydrogen. Hydrogen is stored in the German submarine in the form of Metal Hydride. Some metals, especially Lanthanum-based alloys, absorb hydrogen up to 2% of their weight and release the hydrogen when you reheat them. There’s no liquid hydrogen onboard the vessels. You need very high values, such as -250/270 degrees, to liquefy hydrogen. Hydrogen is the first element, so it is the hardest to handle.
The MİLDEN project aims for a total net power of 300kW and a gross power of approximately 360-370kW. In total, 6 PEM Fuel Cell modules, each with a power capacity of 60kW, will be used in the submarine. In the REİS Class, 4 of these modules are planned to be used to meet the 240kW power requirement.
Defence Turkey: In the first versions of the Type 212, the Germans used nine modules (one backup), each with a power capacity of 34kW.
Vestel Defence: There’s a significant time difference. Moreover, MİLDEN is expected to grow and become larger in the following years.
Defence Turkey: Can domestic production of PEM Fuel Cell modules be used for the maintenance of Type 214 submarines?
Vestel Defence: I don’t know the exact numbers, but I guess that four 60kW Fuel Cell modules seem to be used for Type 214.
Defence Turkey: Is PEM Fuel Cell production capability available in our country at this power and capacity?
Vestel Defence: At present, no one has the capability and experience to produce 5kW Fuel Cell modules in Turkey. We have developed another type of 5kW Fuel Cell prototype for the defence industry. It has also gone through some military tests, but that product is not compatible with this submarine. It was developed for land platforms.
Defence Turkey: The hydrogen required by the Fuel Cell modules to generate electricity is stored inside metal hydride tanks in the German Type 212 and Type 214 submarines. However, the weight of these tanks (100-150 tons) becomes a hindrance considering such small amounts of hydrogen. Therefore, there are studies on Methanol and Ethanol Fuel Reformers and compatible Fuel Cell technologies based on methyl alcohol and ethyl alcohol. For example, the Type 216, which TKMS (ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems) offered to Australia, also included a Fuel Reformer. Is such a capability aimed for MİLDEN?
Vestel Defence: We call it the Reformer. Both Spain and Russia are carrying out studies on this technology; naturally, there is an expectation for MİLDEN as well. The Reformer is one of the requirements in the tender. As you know, the new Type 2014 submarines don’t have this capability. One of the main reasons for this tender is to be able to develop this technology as domestic and national as possible.
Defence Turkey: I was wondering why we don’t make Reformers. This capability provides a good opportunity because the AIP System in the Type 214TN REİS Class makes us highly dependent on Germany.
Vestel Defence: Making the Reformer is not rocket science. I’m not saying this to underestimate it, its technology is known, but we need to make some effort. For example, if you can build a small van, you can produce a product when you are asked for a bigger one because you know how to make it, it only takes time. As Vestel Defence, we have completed almost 15 international and national projects in this field in 15 years. This includes all the support projects you know, such as TÜBİTAK TEYDEP, EU, Eurocam. Such abilities couldn’t be achieved in a day. You need to get your hands dirty.
Defence Turkey: You said you successfully made a 5kW capacity Fuel Cell. How does this (Solid Oxide Fuel Cell) differ from the desired PEM Fuel Cell technology for submarines? You stated that you have been working in this field for 15 years, is this new to you?
Vestel Defence: The Presidency of Defence Industries (SSB) asked us for a PEM (Proton-Exchange Membrane) Fuel Cell prototype. PEM Fuel Cell is an almost mature technology. You can buy it if you pay for it, but the same doesn’t apply to Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC), because the technology is not matured enough. The PEM cell prototype we gave to the SSB was SOFC, and we developed almost everything of that prototype in Turkey. SOFC is not ideal to use in submarines due to its working principle. The reformer is more suitable for such new submarines. What really matters here is to produce hydrogen inside the vessel from Methyl Alcohol. This is not a complicated process, but what makes it challenging is to make it under the sea inside a submarine. It is not something that can’t be done. In the Solid Oxide Fuel Cell prototype that we delivered to the SSB, we collected hydrogen from diesel, not from methyl alcohol. The concept is basically the same, but there are some differences in methods. According to the requirements in the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project, operating a similar Reformer on land to collect hydrogen and refuel the Type 214TN Class submarines is one of the options requested in this tender. Vestel Defence is able to achieve all of these requirements.
The hydrogen tanks on the Type 214 Class Submarines are required to be filled at ports when the hydrogen is depleted. The containers will be filled with hydrogen from the Italian company Linde. There is no problem in peacetime, but in the time of war, the possibility that a truckload of hydrogen with a pressure of 200 bar could be hit while inside a military facility would have a negative impact on the survival of the entire facility.
Defence Turkey: I believe you need to build a new facility for PEM Fuel Cells and carry out R&D for the necessary infrastructure?
Vestel Defence: Although it is considered as R&D, the SSB wants a product. When you participate in the tender, they ask you if you can do it and how long will it take to deliver it.
Defence Turkey: Is it left up to the companies, or is there a given time?
Vestel Defence: During the evaluation process, they will choose the fastest and the most cost-effective company considering their performance in the tender. Roketsan and Aspilsan are also participate in the bidding, and as far as I know, Aspilsan doesn’t work on Fuel Cells. They may work with TÜBİTAK on this matter.
Defence Turkey: Who carries out the tender process?
Vestel Defence: The SSB carries out the process; the end-user is the Naval Forces Command.
Defence Turkey: You have just stated that 4 Fuel Cell modules can be used in REİS class Submarines. In open sources, it is claimed that TKMS reduced the number of Fuel Cell modules from 9 to 2 in Type 212 submarines, reducing the likelihood of malfunction.
Vestel Defence: At the end of the day, it is 240kW. Four 60kW and two 120kW are basically the same things. In time, TKMS increased the size of the fuel cell and changed its properties. They changed the material between the membranes that we call inter-connector from graphite to metal. By shifting from graphite to metal, you give up some of the advantages of graphite, but you gain other highly distinct benefits, such as thickness (for transfer efficiency and power density). Weight is not an issue for the submarines, but volume is a problem, the smaller space, the more energy you can fit. Aside from the PEM Fuel Cell modules, converters and subsystems that will control all modules, collect oxygen and hydrogen from their sources and distribute the generated power in accordance with the needs of the vessel are also requested within the scope of the Submarine Propulsion System Development Project Tender. The main advantage of our company is that we have our electronic R&D group. We already have developed and produced these units for our existing small and large autonomous platforms; thus, it is a highly suitable tender for us.
When we look at the capabilities of the current participating companies in the study on Methyl Alcohol, only Vestel Defence and TÜBİTAK can accomplish this work on the Reformer. No matter which company is selected, one of these two should be there. Because there are still some problems that no one has dealt with yet, they need to be studied. For example, how will the Reformer’s output/exhaust (carbon dioxide output) be discharged from the submarine? Releasing the output in gas form is something undesired because it reveals your location. We still need to carry out an R&D study on this issue.
Defence Turkey: When do you think the tender process will be completed?
Vestel Defence: It will be clear towards the end of this year (2019).
Defence Turkey: Will you build a new facility if you win the tender?
Vestel Defence: We will expand our existing facility and increase the number of employees to increase our capacity. We are also in close cooperation with Niğde Ömer Halisdemir University. They have a Clean Room and numerous Laboratories to help us develop related parts. Our collaboration with Niğde University was selected as the best University-Industry Collaboration at the beginning of 2018.
Defence Turkey: Thank you for your precious time, and we wish you success in your work
https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...on-system-components-development-project-3640
by İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ
The existing Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cell (PEM Fuel Cell) technology used in the Type 214TN REİS Class Submarine, which is currently being built for the Turkish Navy at Gölcük Shipyard, is well above the level currently reached by Turkish Defence and Aviation Industry companies and institutions (5kW) in terms of power capacity. In order to strengthen the existing infrastructure in the field of PEM Fuel Cells in Turkey, to meet the possible PEM Fuel Cell module needs of REİS Class Submarines at home with national resources and to adopt the system in the National Submarine (MİLDEN) project, the SSB initiated the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project in 2018 by aiming a slightly higher power capacity than the Type 214.
Before the project, in order to determine the level of existing domestic facilities, capabilities and infrastructure for nationally developing the Main Propulsion System, Fuel Cell System, Hydrogen Reformer and/or Storage System, Enhanced Lead-acid Batteries or Alternative Technology Batteries, the SSB issued a R&D Wide Area Call for the Development of Marine Propulsion System in March 2017 and asked the relevant local companies/institutions/organizations to submit the required information by May 18, 2017. The Wide Area Call for Development of Naval Platforms Propulsion System was issued to identify local companies/institutions/organizations interested in the project, to determine the design, production and testing capabilities, to determine the current and completed R&D projects/studies of local companies/institutions/organizations, to evaluate related R&D project proposals, and to obtain the information required to identify projects and project models to be launched.
The SSB has initiated the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project for the establishment of national infrastructure to meet the PEM Fuel Cell, and Fuel Reformer (Methyl Alcohol will be used and only for MİLDEN) needs for the Type 214TN REIS Class and MİLDEN Submarines. Within the scope of the project, an invitation to tender (ITT) was submitted to Aspilsan, Roketsan, Vestel Defence, and TÜBİTAK MRC companies, and the first bids were sent to the SSB in September 2018. Because TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute could not submit a bid on its own due to its corporate identity, it submitted its proposal as a subcontractor enabling it to work with these three companies. According to the information received from Vestel Defence and TÜBİTAK MRC officials who participated in the project during the IDEF ‘19 Fair and TeknoFest 2019 Aviation, Space and Technology Festival held at Istanbul ATATÜRK Airport on September 17-22, 2019; TÜBİTAK MRC submitted two separate bids to Vestel Defence and Aspilsan and also made an offer to Roketsan only for the Reformer. According to the information I gathered, the negotiations with the SSB regarding the proposals which were submitted in September 2018 for different variants (both with and without the Reformer) were completed in the summer of 2019. However, as the SSB requested a final price reduction, the companies are continuing their studies as of September 18, 2019. If there are no surprises in the project, the winner is expected to be selected by the end of this year, and the contract is expected to be signed in January 2020. Within this framework, Vestel Defence, one of the candidate companies, started its preliminary studies on several different components.
Currently, there are two PEM Fuel Cell modules with a capacity of 120kW (total 240 kilowatts) in REİS Class, while the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project targets a total net power of 300kW and a gross power of approximately 360-370kW. This goal is planned to be achieved with six fuel cell modules with a 60-65kW power capacity, each of which is of domestic design and production. According to the information we have obtained, in the first phase of the Project, a Fuel Cell with a capacity of 65kW will be developed and produced with national capabilities and delivered to the SSB for testing. After the tests, if the product is successful, mass production of 6 65kW Fuel Cell modules will begin.
TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute is currently the most experienced center in the field of Fuel Cells in our country. The company, which has been working on several Fuel Cell technologies since 2000, has taken part in the development of Fuel Cell Technologies for clean energy generation which includes the establishment of a 1.5kW PEM type Fuel Cell System in 2003-2004, the development and production of Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM) Fuel Cell Module Components which aims to develop and produce an indigenous 3-cell Fuel Cell and its components with domestic resources in 2004-2006, the production and integration of Direct Sodium Borohydride Fuel Cells with the aim of developing 70-100W capacity Direct Sodium Borohydride Fuel Cells between 2004-2007 including end-user integration, Proton Exchange Membrane Fuel Cell Modeling and Bipolar Plate Production for the production of membrane and bipolar plates to be used in this battery with a PEM type Fuel Cell design with a capacity of 1kW between 2006-2008, TARAL 1007- Fuel Cell Micro Cogeneration System, which aims to produce 5kW of electricity and 30kW of heat energy from fossil gases by using Fuel Cells and catalytic combustion systems in 2006-2010, the development of a Direct Sodium Boron Hydride Fuel Cell System for stationary applications where the aim is to develop a 1kW Direct Sodium Boron Hydride Fuel Cell system prototype in 2008-2010, and the Sodium Borohydride Fuel Cell Vehicle Projects which aim to develop a 3kW PEM type Fuel Cell to produce hydrogen from Borohydride for vehicle applications in 2009-2011. Due to its experience in Fuel Cell technology, TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute cooperated with the three companies competing in the tender and submitted its proposals to these companies as a subcontractor. Vestel Defence, which was established at the end 2003, identified Hydrogen Technology and Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Systems as two main fields of its activity. Since 2004, the company has invested approximately US$30 Million (half of this figure has been funded with government subsidies) to date in the field of Fuel Cell technology. Thanks to this investment, the most comprehensive hydrogen techniques, and Fuel Cell Laboratory have been established. Thanks to various successful R&D projects and university-industry collaborations, Vestel Defence has produced multiple products in this field and has carried out studies mainly on Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC) technology. In this context, the 3kW (this is the net power value; the gross power value is 5kW) Auxiliary Power Unit Project (ZAYGÜP) for Armored Vehicles, which was signed with the Presidency of Defence Industries (SSB) in 2009, was successfully completed in 2015 (There was a 2-year delay due to R&D activities) and delivered its outputs. In addition to Solid Oxide Fuel Cells with very high-efficiency levels, Vestel Defence, which conducts various studies on PEM (Proton Exchange Membrane) Type Fuel Cell technologies (5-10W PEM Design, 20-50W Methanol PEM Design, 5-10W Sodium Borohydride PEM Design, and 500W Sodium Borohydride PEM Design), is one of the three companies currently competing in the Submarine Propulsion System Development Project for Type 214TN REİS Class and MİLDEN Class Submarines.
Although Aspilsan lacks the knowledge and infrastructure compared to TÜBİTAK MRC Energy Institute and Vestel Defence on Fuel Cells, recently, it has hired experienced engineers both from Turkey and abroad to provide support for the project. In this context, for example, the company has hired a Turkish engineer in recent years who has worked for ten years at the institute, which provided the PEM Fuel Cell technology to Siemens from Germany. Aspilsan also received approval in the last quarter of 2018 for its project on the Cylindrical Li-Ion Battery production infrastructure. According to the information we have obtained, a facility will be established in Kayseri to allow the production of 7,200 batteries per shift. The company has opened a new Design Office in TeknoPark Istanbul as well. Lithium-Ion type domestic production new generation batteries are also expected to be used in MİLDEN platforms.
We had a short interview with the Vestel Defence Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technologies Department Technical Lead during the IDEF 2019 Fair about Vestel Defence’s work on Fuel Cell technology and its existing infrastructure and Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project.
Defence Turkey: Can you give us information about the capacity of Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project and PEM Fuel Cell modules that will be produced with national resources within the scope of the Project?
Vestel Defence: A total of three companies, Roketsan, Aspilsan, and Vestel Defence, were invited to the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project tender. Additionally, TÜBİTAK MRC was invited as a subcontractor. The main reason for this is that TÜBİTAK is actually a research institute. There are some differences in the proposed offer for the new submarine, which cannot be found in the Type 214. As you know, Fuel Cells require hydrogen and oxygen to generate power. Oxygen already exists under the sea in liquid form. There are tanks for storing liquid oxygen onboard, but not for hydrogen. Hydrogen is stored in the German submarine in the form of Metal Hydride. Some metals, especially Lanthanum-based alloys, absorb hydrogen up to 2% of their weight and release the hydrogen when you reheat them. There’s no liquid hydrogen onboard the vessels. You need very high values, such as -250/270 degrees, to liquefy hydrogen. Hydrogen is the first element, so it is the hardest to handle.
The MİLDEN project aims for a total net power of 300kW and a gross power of approximately 360-370kW. In total, 6 PEM Fuel Cell modules, each with a power capacity of 60kW, will be used in the submarine. In the REİS Class, 4 of these modules are planned to be used to meet the 240kW power requirement.
Defence Turkey: In the first versions of the Type 212, the Germans used nine modules (one backup), each with a power capacity of 34kW.
Vestel Defence: There’s a significant time difference. Moreover, MİLDEN is expected to grow and become larger in the following years.
Defence Turkey: Can domestic production of PEM Fuel Cell modules be used for the maintenance of Type 214 submarines?
Vestel Defence: I don’t know the exact numbers, but I guess that four 60kW Fuel Cell modules seem to be used for Type 214.
Defence Turkey: Is PEM Fuel Cell production capability available in our country at this power and capacity?
Vestel Defence: At present, no one has the capability and experience to produce 5kW Fuel Cell modules in Turkey. We have developed another type of 5kW Fuel Cell prototype for the defence industry. It has also gone through some military tests, but that product is not compatible with this submarine. It was developed for land platforms.
Defence Turkey: The hydrogen required by the Fuel Cell modules to generate electricity is stored inside metal hydride tanks in the German Type 212 and Type 214 submarines. However, the weight of these tanks (100-150 tons) becomes a hindrance considering such small amounts of hydrogen. Therefore, there are studies on Methanol and Ethanol Fuel Reformers and compatible Fuel Cell technologies based on methyl alcohol and ethyl alcohol. For example, the Type 216, which TKMS (ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems) offered to Australia, also included a Fuel Reformer. Is such a capability aimed for MİLDEN?
Vestel Defence: We call it the Reformer. Both Spain and Russia are carrying out studies on this technology; naturally, there is an expectation for MİLDEN as well. The Reformer is one of the requirements in the tender. As you know, the new Type 2014 submarines don’t have this capability. One of the main reasons for this tender is to be able to develop this technology as domestic and national as possible.
Defence Turkey: I was wondering why we don’t make Reformers. This capability provides a good opportunity because the AIP System in the Type 214TN REİS Class makes us highly dependent on Germany.
Vestel Defence: Making the Reformer is not rocket science. I’m not saying this to underestimate it, its technology is known, but we need to make some effort. For example, if you can build a small van, you can produce a product when you are asked for a bigger one because you know how to make it, it only takes time. As Vestel Defence, we have completed almost 15 international and national projects in this field in 15 years. This includes all the support projects you know, such as TÜBİTAK TEYDEP, EU, Eurocam. Such abilities couldn’t be achieved in a day. You need to get your hands dirty.
Defence Turkey: You said you successfully made a 5kW capacity Fuel Cell. How does this (Solid Oxide Fuel Cell) differ from the desired PEM Fuel Cell technology for submarines? You stated that you have been working in this field for 15 years, is this new to you?
Vestel Defence: The Presidency of Defence Industries (SSB) asked us for a PEM (Proton-Exchange Membrane) Fuel Cell prototype. PEM Fuel Cell is an almost mature technology. You can buy it if you pay for it, but the same doesn’t apply to Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC), because the technology is not matured enough. The PEM cell prototype we gave to the SSB was SOFC, and we developed almost everything of that prototype in Turkey. SOFC is not ideal to use in submarines due to its working principle. The reformer is more suitable for such new submarines. What really matters here is to produce hydrogen inside the vessel from Methyl Alcohol. This is not a complicated process, but what makes it challenging is to make it under the sea inside a submarine. It is not something that can’t be done. In the Solid Oxide Fuel Cell prototype that we delivered to the SSB, we collected hydrogen from diesel, not from methyl alcohol. The concept is basically the same, but there are some differences in methods. According to the requirements in the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project, operating a similar Reformer on land to collect hydrogen and refuel the Type 214TN Class submarines is one of the options requested in this tender. Vestel Defence is able to achieve all of these requirements.
The hydrogen tanks on the Type 214 Class Submarines are required to be filled at ports when the hydrogen is depleted. The containers will be filled with hydrogen from the Italian company Linde. There is no problem in peacetime, but in the time of war, the possibility that a truckload of hydrogen with a pressure of 200 bar could be hit while inside a military facility would have a negative impact on the survival of the entire facility.
Defence Turkey: I believe you need to build a new facility for PEM Fuel Cells and carry out R&D for the necessary infrastructure?
Vestel Defence: Although it is considered as R&D, the SSB wants a product. When you participate in the tender, they ask you if you can do it and how long will it take to deliver it.
Defence Turkey: Is it left up to the companies, or is there a given time?
Vestel Defence: During the evaluation process, they will choose the fastest and the most cost-effective company considering their performance in the tender. Roketsan and Aspilsan are also participate in the bidding, and as far as I know, Aspilsan doesn’t work on Fuel Cells. They may work with TÜBİTAK on this matter.
Defence Turkey: Who carries out the tender process?
Vestel Defence: The SSB carries out the process; the end-user is the Naval Forces Command.
Defence Turkey: You have just stated that 4 Fuel Cell modules can be used in REİS class Submarines. In open sources, it is claimed that TKMS reduced the number of Fuel Cell modules from 9 to 2 in Type 212 submarines, reducing the likelihood of malfunction.
Vestel Defence: At the end of the day, it is 240kW. Four 60kW and two 120kW are basically the same things. In time, TKMS increased the size of the fuel cell and changed its properties. They changed the material between the membranes that we call inter-connector from graphite to metal. By shifting from graphite to metal, you give up some of the advantages of graphite, but you gain other highly distinct benefits, such as thickness (for transfer efficiency and power density). Weight is not an issue for the submarines, but volume is a problem, the smaller space, the more energy you can fit. Aside from the PEM Fuel Cell modules, converters and subsystems that will control all modules, collect oxygen and hydrogen from their sources and distribute the generated power in accordance with the needs of the vessel are also requested within the scope of the Submarine Propulsion System Development Project Tender. The main advantage of our company is that we have our electronic R&D group. We already have developed and produced these units for our existing small and large autonomous platforms; thus, it is a highly suitable tender for us.
When we look at the capabilities of the current participating companies in the study on Methyl Alcohol, only Vestel Defence and TÜBİTAK can accomplish this work on the Reformer. No matter which company is selected, one of these two should be there. Because there are still some problems that no one has dealt with yet, they need to be studied. For example, how will the Reformer’s output/exhaust (carbon dioxide output) be discharged from the submarine? Releasing the output in gas form is something undesired because it reveals your location. We still need to carry out an R&D study on this issue.
Defence Turkey: When do you think the tender process will be completed?
Vestel Defence: It will be clear towards the end of this year (2019).
Defence Turkey: Will you build a new facility if you win the tender?
Vestel Defence: We will expand our existing facility and increase the number of employees to increase our capacity. We are also in close cooperation with Niğde Ömer Halisdemir University. They have a Clean Room and numerous Laboratories to help us develop related parts. Our collaboration with Niğde University was selected as the best University-Industry Collaboration at the beginning of 2018.
Defence Turkey: Thank you for your precious time, and we wish you success in your work
https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...on-system-components-development-project-3640
Hexciter
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The National Vertical Discharge System (MIDAS) project is planned to be carried out by Roketsan and to include Aselsan in the process, instead of the US origin Mark 41 Vertical Discharge System (VLS).
The Defense Industry Presidency (SSB) has planned the air cushion hovercraft project - for the TCG Anadolu docked landing ship in 2020.
The Defense Industry Presidency (SSB) has planned the air cushion hovercraft project - for the TCG Anadolu docked landing ship in 2020.
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Bismarck
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Are you going to start ATMACA from Submarines.
Bismarck
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Hovercraft! Many years ago, I heard something about that projecy,but no news or progress about current situation.
ANMDT
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Its a nice interview but despite of his great knowledge, the correspondent doesnt have much knowledge on primitive submarine feature.
I totally lost it when at a point he has stated that "weight isnt an issue for submarine ".
Since initiation of the project ,so far i know, it always have been considered to be a small lcac for landing. I dont know anything regards to a zubr class like vessel. It is supposed to be smaller than ship to shore connector of US Navy. In the end, its got to be something which fits into Tcg Anadolu.
Hexciter
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TCG Anadolu’s dock has no middle platform by the request of Turkish navy. Hence she can accommodate LCAC.
https://www.infodefensa.com/wp-content/uploads/JCI_en_v2.pdf
See page 73
Ruhnama
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Are it can compatible with existing US made missile used by turkish navy? Like essm or sm2
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