Turkish Missile Programs

[Babur Han]

How far is the development of Toros-260? Any news?

I think there is no more further Development on Toros-230/260 since Kasirga MLRS is inducted, Kasirga is further developed to Kasirga - G (GPS/INS)

 

[Bismarck]

What are the different between both? Apart from the number of tubes?

Kasirga- G(GPS/INS). GPS? Are you sure?

 

[Hakan]

Turkey says aiming to finalise missile defence talks with China in April| Reuters

(Reuters) - Turkey is aiming to finalise by April its negotiations with China over the procurement of a missile-defence system, Murad Bayar, undersecretary for the state-run defence industries, told reporters on Thursday.

Turkey announced in September it had chosen China's FD-2000 missile-defence system over rival offers from Franco-Italian Eurosam SAMP/T and U.S.-listed Raytheon Co. It said China offered the most competitive terms and would allow co-production in Turkey.

U.S. and NATO officials have raised concerns with Turkish officials about the decision to buy the system from CPMIEC, a company hit by U.S. sanctions for sales of items to either Iran, Syria or North Korea that are banned under U.S. laws to curb the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.
@SinoSoldier @Chinese-Dragon @cnleio @cirr @shuttler @Aeronaut

 

[HRK]

Allies Intensify Pressure on Turkey Over China Missile Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

ANKARA — The Turkish government and the country’s largest defense company are under increasing pressure from Turkey’s NATO allies to rethink a September decision to award a $3.44 billion air defense contract to a Chinese bidder.

Procurement officials have privately admitted that if Turkey finalizes the deal with the Chinese manufacturer, its entire defense cooperation effort with Western counterparts, including defense and non-defense companies, could be jeopardized.

“I think there is growing concern in Ankara over that deal,” one official familiar with the program said. “These concerns will definitely play a role in final decision-making, although they alone cannot be a reason to change course.”

Specifically, officials with Turkish company Aselsan are concerned that its connection to the deal could harm its corporate relations with Western banks.

In September, Turkey selected China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp. (CPMIEC) to construct the country’s first long-range air and anti-missile defense system. The Turkish government said it opted for the Chinese solution based mainly on deliberations over price and technology transfer.

The Chinese contender defeated a US partnership of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, offering the Patriot air defense system; Russia’s Rosoboronexport, marketing the S-300; and Italian-French consortium Eurosam, maker of the Aster 30.

Turkish officials said if contract negotiations with CPMIEC fail, talks would be opened with the second-place finisher, Eurosam. Next in line would be the US bidder. The Russian option has been eliminated.

But NATO and US officials have said any Chinese-built system could not be integrated with Turkey’s joint air defense assets with NATO and the United States.

They also have warned that any Turkish company that may act as local subcontractor in the program would face serious US sanctions because CPMIEC is on a US list of companies to be sanctioned under the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

US diplomats have said Turkish companies working on US products or technology could be subject to intense scrutiny, or requested to adopt stringent security measures to erect a wall between US technology-related activities and CPMIEC.

They said the sanctions would be imposed on any company or individual cooperating with the blacklisted companies, especially when the use of US technology is in question.

In December, Aselsan, potentially CPMIEC’s main Turkish partner in the contract, became the first casualty of the US sanctions. Bank of America Merrill Lynch, a US investment bank, pulled out of a joint bid to advise Aselsan on its second listing on Istanbul’s stock exchange, citing Turkey’s contract negotiations with CPMIEC.

Aselsan’s management shrugged it off and said it would select another bank for the task.

But the procurement official said that Aselsan’s concern over corporate repercussions has increased.

“I think they now view the deal potentially punishing for the company,” he said.

One Aselsan official admitted that after Merrill Lynch’s pullout, the company has been in talks for the underwriting with two more international banks, Barclays and Goldman Sachs. Both have echoed the same concerns, pointing to possible US sanctions.

“The press reports over difficulties with these two banks are correct,” one Aselsan official confirmed on condition of anonymity. “Other investment banks do not look promising. We may wait for a better timing for the listing.”

The difficulties over a Chinese air and anti-missile defense architecture for NATO member Turkey also were discussed during French President François Hollande’s recent visit here.

French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian, who accompanied Hollande during the Jan. 27 visit, met with Murad Bayar, Turkey’s top defense procurement official.

“Inevitably, the program was discussed at the top level, with the French raising concerns and urging the Turkish government to rethink the deal,” one senior government official said.

Similarly, the same official said, the Americans are voicing their concerns on an almost daily basis through various channels.

He said he could not comment on how the diplomatic offensive is influencing the government’s decision.

The Turkish government has extended an end-of-January deadline for the US and European competitors to rebid for the contract.

The Turkish program consists of radar, launcher and interceptor missiles to counter enemy aircraft and missiles. Turkey has no long-range air defense system.

About half of Turkey’s network-based air defense picture has been paid for by NATO. The country is part of NATO’s Air Defense Ground Environment.

Without NATO’s consent, it will be impossible for Turkey to make the planned Chinese system operable with these assets, some analysts said.

 

[T-123456]

Easy solution,if they are so worried they should give us a better option instead of crying.
The Chinese have the best offer,we should keep our word to the Chinese.

 

[HRK]

Easy solution,if they are so worried they should give us a better option instead of crying.
The Chinese have the best offer,we should keep our word to the Chinese.

Another solution, adopt this system as second tier, separate from NATO system ..... that will cause some extra $ but will end the objection of NATO and US about its integration with standard air defence system.

 

[T-123456]

Another solution, adopt this system as second tier, separate from NATO system ..... that will cause some extra $ but will end the objection of NATO and US about its integration with standard air defence system.

The Greeks have the S-300,nobody objecting to them yet when we do something that doesnt comply to their ''desires''they whine about it.
The times of my country jumping up whenever they tell us to are over,they know it we know it.
They can object in whatever however way they want,they are threatening us with kicking us out of the F-35 project(worthless project).
We are now in the position to say;so what,who cares,do whatever!
In the end,they will just accept it and move on.

 

[Worf]

F-35 is a 'worthless project'?!

 

[T-123456]

F-35 is a 'worthless project'?!

Yes,check my posts about it untill now.
Useless over prized,over valued project.
The F35 is not as good as we think it is,stealth my azz.

 

[Worf]

Yes,check my posts about it untill now.
Useless over prized,over valued project.
The F35 is not as good as we think it is,stealth my azz.

Dude, the f-35 will be the backbone of the Turkish airforce. I know it's controversial, like the f4 at the time, but calling it worthless is absolutely not the way to go.

 

[T-123456]

Dude, the f-35 will be the backbone of the Turkish airforce. I know it's controversial, like the f4 at the time, but calling it worthless is absolutely not the way to go.

My opinion?
Lets see about the backbone part.
Btw,how can they be the backbone when we will not get the source codes?
Without the source code, Turkish engineers wouldn't be able to make any changes to the software that operates the jets. The external flight codes are equally important, if not more so, as they can be used externally to navigate the jets.

 

[Bismarck]

My opinion?
Lets see about the backbone part.
Btw,how can they be the backbone when we will not get the source codes?
Without the source code, Turkish engineers wouldn't be able to make any changes to the software that operates the jets. The external flight codes are equally important, if not more so, as they can be used externally to navigate the jets.

Is that clear that you don't get the source code?

 

[T-123456]

Is that clear that you don't get the source code?

The way things look its very clear.
Thats why the Turkish side keeps delaying the order.
We should have had two by now and two more in 2015/16.
the U.S. has agreed to let Israel integrate its own electronic warfare systems, such as sensors and countermeasures, into the aircraft. The main computer shall have a plug-and-play feature to allow add-on Israeli electronics to be used; proposed systems include an external jamming pod, and new air-to-air missiles and guided bombs in the internal weapon bays.
See the irony,their not even in the project?

 

[Baykuş]

The way things look its very clear.
Thats why the Turkish side keeps delaying the order

Turkey puts F-35 order on hold over US refusal to share technology
24 March 2011 /EMRE SONCAN

Turkey has announced that it is putting the planned purchase of 100 F-35 fighter jets from the US on hold because the Pentagon refuses to share the source code used in the software designed for the aircraft as well as the codes that might be used externally to activate the planes.
Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said on Tuesday, following a meeting of the Defense Industry Implementation Committee (SSİK), that the negotiations over the F-35 procurement tender had not yielded “satisfactory results.” He said, “We will evaluate the order in the next meeting, in light of the progress made in the talks by then.” He said much ground had been covered in the talks in terms of technology sharing, but this was not enough for Turkey to accept the jets. He said the costs of the project had also increased but that the Turkish side had failed to secure the source code and the remote flight codes for the planes for which it will be paying $16 billion. Without the source code, Turkish engineers wouldn't be able to make any changes to the software that operates the jets. The external flight codes are equally important, if not more, as they can be used externally to navigate the jets. ...

Source that backs what T-123456 claims, if anyone would like to check for themselves.

The main computer shall have a plug-and-play feature to allow add-on Israeli electronics to be used; proposed systems include an external jamming pod, and new air-to-air missiles and guided bombs in the internal weapon bays.
See the irony,their not even in the project?

To be fair though brother, we also have access to the same interface (Universal Armament Interface, UAI). Besides;

... However, Yiftah S. Shapir, a colleague of Laish's at the INSS, is more critical.

In a separate assessment, he acknowledged that while the jet has "some unique capabilities that would make every combat pilot's mouth water" -- stealth and the most advanced electronic systems in the world -- it "also has some very important shortcomings."

These, he said, include U.S. refusal of Israeli demands to install their own weapons and electronic systems and access to the aircraft's software codes.

 

[T-123456]

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Source that backs what T-123456 claims, if anyone is wonders.



To be fair though brother, we also have access to the same interface (Universal Armament Interface, UAI). Besides;

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Yes but Israel has the capability of jamming outside signals,we dont have that yet.
They US could turn our jets into ''flying'' ducks.