Turkish Commander Checks Out JF-17 C

[CivilianSupremacy]

I also don't understand the obsession with Turkish systems, I'd prefer to see greater localisation so we can refine our own systems.

Totally agree. That's even more amusing when JF-17 original designer & partner is China. The recent version is inducted just a year ago and on which PAF has already invested a lot. I don't think, I need to make a point that China's aviation technology is at a different level completely. Turkey has just entered in the game, while China was testing 5th gen fighters by 2012. If at all we need even more advanced version of JF-17 than most natural partner is the original partner China. I figured the only option where PAF will agree to install Turkish components on the JF-17 is when Turkey commits to buy the platform as well. Then it will make sense for Pakistan as it will share or even profit from the sales but no way otherwise.

 

[TheSolution]

What engine do you refer brother???

WS-13E possibly

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

If Turkey buys the J-10 but fits it out with indigenous components (beyond the engine) it could create an or craft nearly to the level of the F-16V/Rafale or at least strive to achieve parity.

Geopolitically speaking buying JF-17s from Pakistan is possible and will not put Turkey in any tight corner. Buying an aircraft directly from China is very unlikely (though still not impossible)

Even if Turkey buys J-10C from China, Turkey cannot right away do any changes on it, It is a chinese platform which they know nothing about. First of all it will require permissions from China to do any modifications, secondly it will take a lot of time and money (kind of timeline that you will have to think over and over again whether its worth doing it or not) . Lastly, even we assume Turks got the luxury of time and money with them, even then why on earth Turkey has to modify the J-10C ? If at all Turkey buys it, there's nothing they can install on it that will improve its already very capable combat capabilities. Yes maybe down the lane for the MLU they might.

If the PAF had the money, a dedicated IRST above the nose and a fully built in EW suite ( or pod based) would have been better, but agreed, the plane has reach nearly the limits of its design.

The thing with military hardware is that there will ALWAYS be a room for upgradation. 5-10 years later, There can always a 4th block with computers & avionics matching that era and perhaps with more composite material and maybe even some design modifications. F-16 is different category aircraft, but you can see how many blocks were introduced, how many times it got upgraded. Like our computers in our homes, we cannot keep using old computers as their processing powers get out-dated. Similarly, those electronic components in aircrafts can always be updated according to the time and age. I am certain that JF-17 will see further upgrade, whether they call it block-4 or not or they do it with Turkey or China is a different debate.


The light weight aircrafts one of biggest advantage is its relatively low cost, low maintenance and quicker productions. kind of things you need when you have to induct aircraft in numbers. There is no way PAF could have maintained required number of squadrons without JF-17. Such light-weight fighters will exist in future too. However, the design concepts will evolve. I know the capabilities of bigger & powerful platforms but that comes with cost and every country cannot afford inducting such in large quantities.

 

[Harbyharb]

If Turkey buys the J-10 but fits it out with indigenous components (beyond the engine) it could create an or craft nearly to the level of the F-16V/Rafale or at least strive to achieve parity.

It could then go in on a deal with China to transfer an export variant of the WS-10B or even possibly the WS-15. With the WS-15 and some redesign (especially to allow the plane to supercruise), a Turkish J-10 could be kinematically ahead of any 4th Gen fighter in the region and would have the electrical power to power all kinds of systems as well as be able to carry heavy payloads, probably from higher up, lofting A2A and A2G systems onto potential adversaries, from a safer distance.

If the goal for the Turks acquiring J-10 is to achieve parity against F-16V and Rafale, then I don't think much alterations are needed to begin with. J-10's design notably featured a significantly larger radome, capable of housing a much larger aperture, compared to the 533mm diameter on Rafale and AN/APG-83 on the F-16, which is severely limited since it is designed to fit F-16 aircraft with no structural, power or cooling modifications. Combined with the large flying lamppost that is the PL-15, advantage in counter air shouldn't be hard to come by.

The limitations comes with trying to turn the J-10C into a multi-role platform with significant A2G capability. At the end of the day, J-10 is a platform originated from the failed J-9 project and is fundamentally a light interceptor, supersonic intercept capability first. That is why to this day J-10 does not comes with wingtip hardpoints, as cropped delta reduces more drag. The center of the fuselage also noticeably necks inward, which is to streamline change in aircraft cross section as to improve transonic/supersonic performance. All of this means the J-10 platform will always struggle to find high quality hardpoints for A2G payloads, and have no option to mount CFTs without very significant aerodynamic impacts.

That being said, the Chinese are indeed making changes where they can, they do have a very grave emphasis on built-in EW capability, as can be seen with the rumored "J-10D" variant with an enlarged "spine" section similar to some F-16 variants. That and, EW pods can make use of some of J-10's less used hardpoints, such as the 2 light hardpoints under the intake and 4 tandem fuselage hardpoints usually only compatible with ~250kg ordinance

 

[TheSolution]

If the PAF had the money, a dedicated IRST above the nose and a fully built in EW suite ( or pod based) would have been better, but agreed, the plane has reach nearly the limits of its design.

At a point it begins to venture into a price range that negates the purpose of the JF-17, which was being an effective low-cost fighter (because it had to be inducted in large numbers)

But yeah, I think an IRST, built-in EW suite, and a more powerful engine alongside all major subsystems being localised indigenous components would make a good theoretical block 4.

But would it still be a cost effective? And would a J-10C be a better deal at that point?

 

[White and Green with M/S]

WS-13E possibly

Or upcoming WS-19 has a same class as F-414

 

[LegionnairE]

In what way both are "similar" ? The very roles are different. One is planned and built specifically for a role of 4th gen multirole combat aircraft, other is specifically a trainer aircraft.

The obvious difference in role & capabilities leaves only non-combat aspect of components that can be shared.

Hurjet weight, climb-rate, payload, range, almost every parameter is far below any combat aircraft in the world. The aircraft is not built for combat, its built for only one purpose that's training and perhaps can be used to drop bombs (that's where light-attack comes in). So yes only components related with flight, or any other general components could be shared. If at all required.

You're an uneducated twat. Planned combat version of Hürjet will be in a similiar role as JF-17. or the Korean FA-50 or Gripen

If Turkey buys the J-10

That's not going to happen, but ASELSAN's IRST, EOTS systems as well as Tulgar helmet can be fitted to JF-17s regardless.

 

[LegionnairE]

At a point it begins to venture into a price range that negates the purpose of the JF-17, which was being an effective low-cost fighter (because it had to be inducted in large numbers)

But yeah, I think an IRST, built-in EW suite, and a more powerful engine alongside all major subsystems being localised indigenous components would make a good theoretical block 4.

But would it still be a cost effective? And would a J-10C be a better deal at that point?

We're entering an age where sensors and network is much more important than kinematic performance so yes. It would be definitely worth it.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

General Ziya Cemal Kadioğlu, Commander Turkish Air Force being introduced to the cockpit of JF-17C Block-III during his visit to Exercise Indus Shield 2023.

Block-III was pitched against TurAF F-16C is AESA vs Doppler DACT Air Combat.

View attachment 964497

Considering Turkey has done F16 Manufacturing and also Software Development , they are well aware of F16 Level Jet

The Man has also seen F35 inside no doubt because Turkey for long part was active member of program

He is not that impressed by JF17 avionics must have looked old from 1970's from what he used to seeing in F35 or F16 C/D

The other possibility he might be wondering how Pakistani Pilots have won battles in this thing vs F16 C/D level Turkish Jets , his face looks like he has many questions

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

You're an uneducated twat. Planned combat version of Hürjet will be in a similiar role as JF-17. or the Korean FA-50 or Gripen

and you are a Moron! Did I go personal with you? Your turkish education has only taught you to go personal with anyone whoever disagree with your turkish sh-t?

On the other note, Hurjet "Planned" version which "will be"! . Who gives a damn to planned version. The original comment says "is" similar. That's why I replied what I replied.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Considering Turkey has done F16 Manufacturing and also Software Development , they are well aware of F16 Level Jet

The Man has also seen F35 inside no doubt because Turkey for long part was active member of program

He is not that impressed by JF17

Bro, have you seen cockpit of F-16As ??

JF-17C is generations ahead of those old F-16s. Older guys here must remember that JF-17 was our most advance and dependable aircraft before the AMRAAMs and block-52s.

F-16A

JF-17C

and how on earth you concluded his thoughts? He is perhaps worried that none of their fighter aircrafts are even near to chinese tech.

 

[nomi007]

Turks are already running KAAN project
Why they need to run another parallel Program?

Kaan is a different category aircraft.

 

[RAMPAGE]

That's a subjective question. IMHO no.

Then I suppose you would agree that we should look beyond the JF-17 for cooperation with the Turks. It seems to me that any considerable future progress in the JF-17 project can only be in the form of further indigenization of components.

 

[JamD]

Then I suppose you would agree that we should look beyond the JF-17 for cooperation with the Turks. It seems to me that any considerable future progress in the JF-17 project can only be in the form of further indigenization of components.

I meant that I wouldn't call the Turkofied a JF-17 Block 4. Maybe just block 3Prime or something.

And TFX is where the collaboration is going to be I think and hope.

 

[RAMPAGE]

I meant that I wouldn't call the Turkofied a JF-17 Block 4. Maybe just block 3Prime or something.

And TFX is where the collaboration is going to be I think and hope.

Yes, that is what I understood from your post. Although I have no idea about the utility of this Turkofied block 3. I do not see the PAF purchasing any. It could be produced for export if there is demand for it.