Turkish Commander Checks Out JF-17 C

[nomi007]

I hope PAK-TURK can start the JF-17 block 4 stealth variant.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

I hope PAK-TURK can start the JF-17 block 4 stealth variant.

Turks are already running KAAN project
Why they need to run another parallel Program?

 

[LegionnairE]

The fighter jet that the Azerbaijani air force can reach by the shortest route is the Pakistani JF-17. However, this agreement could not be formalized. There has been a lot of speculation about reasons, as most of you know...

I've been saying this many years ago that Azerbaijan should get some JF-17s But now it's too late. The world is going towards a cold war between the NATO and China and Azerbaijan can not afford to buy a fighter jet so closely related to China. They are walking on a thin political rope.

If we can make a twin TF-10000 powered version of Hürjet, that would be the optimal solution for Azerbaijan. But I'm not sure if we have enough engineers to allocate to such a project.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Might happen. Desire and some official prompting are there.

Can the JF-17 Block 3 be improved upon to the degree that the designation 'Block 4' is justified?

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

It would've been great if Turkiye could contribute to the development of another block of JF-17.

Only possible, if Turks commit to buy that specific block too. ( JF-17 block with some turkish input )

Murad Aesa Radar's first customer may be Pakistan. According to officials' statements, it will be a better than the F-16V radar. Tests are currently continuing on Akinci.

PAF already invested quite a lot in block-III. JF-17 block-III is quite latest in PAF inventory, already comes with AESA radar (and all sort of newest weaponary HOBS missiles, EW suite, long range BVR (145km), HMD et). So, PAF won't be switching over anytime soon, atleast not in this decade. Unless Turkey joins as partner & buyer for next block which is a whole lot different level of partnership.

I have heard the arguments that Turkey is already going to make much advance KAAN, and in lighter category its already got Hürjet . and it already got F-16s. So why it needs JF-17? So I'll give arguments that should still make JF-17 block-4 version a candidate.

Why Turkey still may be interested in JF-17 block-4 (with some turkish components)

Hürjet
The Hürjet is a trainer, its extremely slow rate of climb, insignificant payload, and all other properties are specifically for a trainer, it cannot do combat with another fighter jet.

KAAN & F-16s:
KAAN won't be available till next decade. Secondly, its going to super-expensive. You simple cannot induct it in large numbers right away, By 2040, you will have handful of Kaans. You will still require a large number of squadrons by 2040. Turkish F-16s will have well passed their airframe life by then. Turkey should invest in a platform that's cost effective and with which it can fill up as many squadrons as it need. Turkish older F-16s are getting nearly 4 decades old, the F-4s should be retired by now. Also, perhaps Turkey could be looking to scale-up its airforce, (with respect to number of squadrons) Turkey got a massive geography in such an important region already in proximity of 2 active war-zones, plus its adversary with Greece

Turks are already running KAAN project
Why they need to run another parallel Program?

Can Turkey afford to fill up its entire airforce with KAAN fighters? if yes then by when ? 2060 ?
Their F-16s will be done with their airframe life by next decade. They do need another fighter jet.

 

[JamD]

Can the JF-17 Block 3 be improved upon to the degree that the designation 'Block 4' is justified?

That's a subjective question. IMHO no.

 

[Harbyharb]

I hope PAK-TURK can start the JF-17 block 4 stealth variant.

I doubt that would bring sufficient gain to justify the effort.

I can't say I'm an expert, but generally speaking a stealth aircraft requires either pyramid or diamond-like delta with cropped wingtips, diamond-shaped radome, addition of internal munition bays, adoption of twin slanted vertical stabilizers instead of single vertical stab.
Either way this would result in an aircraft with reduced external hard-points, reduced radome aperture, increased central cross-section and increased drag. The harm toward JF-17's transonic and supersonic performance would be very significant, if not detrimental, since it is powered by a single modified RD-33 engine.

Given India's air doctrine, and that is relying on medium/heavy multi-role tactical aircraft (Flanker-H/Rafale) for offensive air and surface campaigns, JF-17's role is primarily that of a light interceptor, rapidly scramble, directed by ground radars or ZDK-03 AEW, employ powerful radars and missiles to either neutralize enemy strike sorties or force them to abandon payload and evade. In this sense it is more plausible to make JF-17 remain affordable and simple.

If pakistan do sought a stealth tactical jet, I think China's Shenyang design bureau have their own medium stealth jet project with several iterations (FC-31/J-35), some of which are intended for export. Otherwise there's also the TAI TF Kaan, whatever that is supposed to be.

 

[Harbyharb]

Can the JF-17 Block 3 be improved upon to the degree that the designation 'Block 4' is justified?

Theoretically yes, but I would first examine in what way, would you like the JF-17 blk III to improve.

At the end of the day PA is still a mostly defensive force facing severe numerical disadvantage, being employed in defensive counter air roles primarily, in which increase in transonic/supersonic performance, sensor suite upgrade, and superior AAMs, would very much be appreciated.

But I do think JF-17's airframe have already depleted its potential for its weight-class, when it is restrained to being powered by a single RD-33 engine. For further upgrades, adaptation of a new, high performance power-plant would be necessary, generating increased thrust and power.

Chinese WS-19 designed for J-35 comes to mind first. Since previous iterations in the form of FC-31 demonstrator flew with RD-33s, I think it wouldn't be outrageous to assume that WS-19 would be the most streamlined upgrade option, but obviously that engine would be reserved for Chinese domestic use for years to come. Other options like GE F414 do exist, which powers the TAI Kaan, but obviously that comes with its own, uh, political limitations.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

We might see some joint work on certain subsystems that might be shared between Hürjet and JF17, the two platforms being similiar.

In what way both are "similar" ? The very roles are different. One is planned and built specifically for a role of 4th gen multirole combat aircraft, other is specifically a trainer aircraft.

The obvious difference in role & capabilities leaves only non-combat aspect of components that can be shared.

Hurjet weight, climb-rate, payload, range, almost every parameter is far below any combat aircraft in the world. The aircraft is not built for combat, its built for only one purpose that's training and perhaps can be used to drop bombs (that's where light-attack comes in). So yes only components related with flight, or any other general components could be shared. If at all required.

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

Turkiye sure can contribute, but China is far more advanced than Turkiye is.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Turkiye sure can contribute, but China is far more advanced than Turkiye is.

We can improve jf17 c with some Western oriented systems like Turkish EW systems in jf17c

 

[FuturePAF]

Murad Aesa Radar's first customer may be Pakistan. According to officials' statements, it will be a better than the F-16V radar. Tests are currently continuing on Akinci.

A version of the Turkish Havasoj Scaled down and put on a JF-17B should be evaluated by Turkish industry, IMHO, and offered to the PAF for consideration.

The F-110 engines will be used for flight and structural tests, and for the production of prototypes and block-0/ part of B-1 after the prototype. Apart from that, there is no other F110 agreement or procurement. The engines to be used within the scope of Phase-1 should be seen as an interim solution that will probably giving a couple years of advantage to the project. Neither the Turkish Air Force nor other potential operator countries are planning to produce the final configuration with these engines. Azerbaijan will probably be the second operator country of KAAN, and I did not write this as a prediction. This is information. Could there be engine supply problems in the future, yes. Are engine indigenization efforts lagging behind, yes. However, this is the general strategy, and the risk management of this is of course a subject worth discussing.

Does Turkey already make parts for the F-110 Engine? What is a realistic timeline for the indigenous engine’s development?

 

[TheSolution]

Only possible, if Turks commit to buy that specific block too. ( JF-17 block with some turkish input )

Which I think is extremely extremely unlikely.

Besides I think JF-17 is at a point where it has hit its peak at a decent level for its airframe and considering the battlefield environment today (AESA radars, BVR missiles). Right now I don't think there is anything significant to add to warrant a block 4 program. Maybe a higher thrust engine would be nice.

I also don't understand the obsession with Turkish systems, I'd prefer to see greater localisation so we can refine our own systems.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

Maybe a higher thrust engine would be nice.

What engine do you refer brother???

 

[FuturePAF]

Only possible, if Turks commit to buy that specific block too. ( JF-17 block with some turkish input )



PAF already invested quite a lot in block-III. JF-17 block-III is quite latest in PAF inventory, already comes with AESA radar (and all sort of newest weaponary HOBS missiles, EW suite, long range BVR (145km), HMD et). So, PAF won't be switching over anytime soon, atleast not in this decade. Unless Turkey joins as partner & buyer for next block which is a whole lot different level of partnership.

I have heard the arguments that Turkey is already going to make much advance KAAN, and in lighter category its already got Hürjet . and it already got F-16s. So why it needs JF-17? So I'll give arguments that should still make JF-17 block-4 version a candidate.

Why Turkey still may be interested in JF-17 block-4 (with some turkish components)

Hürjet
The Hürjet is a trainer, its extremely slow rate of climb, insignificant payload, and all other properties are specifically for a trainer, it cannot do combat with another fighter jet.

KAAN & F-16s:
KAAN won't be available till next decade. Secondly, its going to super-expensive. You simple cannot induct it in large numbers right away, By 2040, you will have handful of Kaans. You will still require a large number of squadrons by 2040. Turkish F-16s will have well passed their airframe life by then. Turkey should invest in a platform that's cost effective and with which it can fill up as many squadrons as it need. Turkish older F-16s are getting nearly 4 decades old, the F-4s should be retired by now. Also, perhaps Turkey could be looking to scale-up its airforce, (with respect to number of squadrons) Turkey got a massive geography in such an important region already in proximity of 2 active war-zones, plus its adversary with Greece



Can Turkey afford to fill up its entire airforce with KAAN fighters? if yes then by when ? 2060 ?
Their F-16s will be done with their airframe life by next decade. They do need another fighter jet.

If Turkey buys the J-10 but fits it out with indigenous components (beyond the engine) it could create an or craft nearly to the level of the F-16V/Rafale or at least strive to achieve parity.

It could then go in on a deal with China to transfer an export variant of the WS-10B or even possibly the WS-15. With the WS-15 and some redesign (especially to allow the plane to supercruise), a Turkish J-10 could be kinematically ahead of any 4th Gen fighter in the region and would have the electrical power to power all kinds of systems as well as be able to carry heavy payloads, probably from higher up, lofting A2A and A2G systems onto potential adversaries, from a safer distance.

It could be a great stop-gap platform and cost effective partner to the KAAN. It would have to be fully “indigenousized” to prevent a new poltical dimension/problem vis a vi NATO.

Which I think is extremely extremely unlikely.

Besides I think JF-17 is at a point where it has hit its peak at a decent level for its airframe and considering the battlefield environment today (AESA radars, BVR missiles). Right now I don't think there is anything significant to add to warrant a block 4 program. Maybe a higher thrust engine would be nice.

I also don't understand the obsession with Turkish systems, I'd prefer to see greater localisation so we can refine our own systems.

If the PAF had the money, a dedicated IRST above the nose and a fully built in EW suite ( or pod based) would have been better, but agreed, the plane has reach nearly the limits of its design.