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Turkey’s S-400 vs F-35 dilemma in 2019

F-35 vs S-400; If Turkey had to choose one, which one should it choose?

  • F-35

  • S-400


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Guys you are punishing USA for supporting ypg and prefer Russians for well attitude to Turkey however you miss something else. Russian federation is a mere country where ypg has own official office. Neither USA nor EU has any ypg Office. Until 90ies pkk dogs had been supported by Russians.
Screenshot_20190309-120511.jpg
 
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Guys you are punishing USA for supporting ypg and prefer Russians for well attitude to Turkey however you miss something else. Russian federation is a mere country where ypg has own official office. Neither USA nor EU has any ypg Office. Until 90ies pkk dogs had been supported by Russians.
View attachment 545227
No one is saying Russia is not supporting YPG. In fact, If anything, russia supports them more. But that is expected, Russia is not our ally. The US is.

In fact, up to a couple of years Russia was an adversary state. The issue here is not who supports who. The issue is how the US is a backstabber.
 
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No one is saying Russia is not supporting YPG. In fact, If anything, russia supports them more. But that is expected, Russia is not our ally. The US is.

In fact, up to a couple of years Russia was an adversary state. The issue here is not who supports who. The issue is how the US is a backstabber.
We all should remember not allowing American troops to Turkey in İraq operation. Turkey didn't allow any American land bases as a partner. We haven't been also constructive in partnership. Turkey left US because of Erdoğans personal revenge related with fetö shit. However fetö was grown by USA in order to prevent radical islamism which had been based on antiwestern arguments. As you can see from Turkeys side to USA has been showing just hatred and anger. If any political party based its campaign on Turkish-USA- EU partnerships it would doom to die.
 
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Guys you are punishing USA for supporting ypg and prefer Russians for well attitude to Turkey however you miss something else. Russian federation is a mere country where ypg has own official office. Neither USA nor EU has any ypg Office. Until 90ies pkk dogs had been supported by Russians.
View attachment 545227
You have means to keep Russian's in check. Unlike US, Russian support seems to be tactical.
 
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We weren't either reliable partner .

"Turkey has left THE USA on the HALF WAY"


US President George W. Bush, the March 1 motion in the Parliament until the rejection of the process and the thoughts about what happened at that time, wrote many years later in his book "Decision Points" to describe as follows:

"Turkish people were having for months pressing for allowing us to use their land, so the 4th Infantry Division from 15 thousand soldiers from the north into Iraq could make. Economic and no military aid, the International Monetary Fund in Turkey (IMF) to provide access to key program we give aid to Turkey's pledge to continue our strong support for the accession to. at one point, it looked like we get permission. (then prime Minister) Abdullah Gul's cabinet, has approved our request. However, Parliament when the final rating for the motion on March 1, the motion was not accepted little different. I have suffered disappointment, and frustration. in one of our most important demands we have made up to now, our NATO ally, Turkey, America had left half way. "

"A political shame ..."

It wasn't just Bush that was baffled. The US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, in his book titled 'Known and Unknown,' would write the following about the rejection of the March 1 motion:

"The US administration was confident. However, the Parliament did not ratify the US demand for razor blades. The lack of support from a key NATO ally in the region was a political embarrassment, in addition to the serious operational imbalance ..."
https://m.haberturk.com/polemik/haber/819489-1-mart-tezkeresinin-tutanaklari-aciklanacak-mi
 
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We all should remember not allowing American troops to Turkey in İraq operation. Turkey didn't allow any American land bases as a partner. We haven't been also constructive in partnership. Turkey left US because of Erdoğans personal revenge related with fetö shit. However fetö was grown by USA in order to prevent radical islamism which had been based on antiwestern arguments. As you can see from Turkeys side to USA has been showing just hatred and anger. If any political party based its campaign on Turkish-USA- EU partnerships it would doom to die.
We weren't either reliable partner .

"Turkey has left THE USA on the HALF WAY"


US President George W. Bush, the March 1 motion in the Parliament until the rejection of the process and the thoughts about what happened at that time, wrote many years later in his book "Decision Points" to describe as follows:

"Turkish people were having for months pressing for allowing us to use their land, so the 4th Infantry Division from 15 thousand soldiers from the north into Iraq could make. Economic and no military aid, the International Monetary Fund in Turkey (IMF) to provide access to key program we give aid to Turkey's pledge to continue our strong support for the accession to. at one point, it looked like we get permission. (then prime Minister) Abdullah Gul's cabinet, has approved our request. However, Parliament when the final rating for the motion on March 1, the motion was not accepted little different. I have suffered disappointment, and frustration. in one of our most important demands we have made up to now, our NATO ally, Turkey, America had left half way. "

"A political shame ..."

It wasn't just Bush that was baffled. The US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, in his book titled 'Known and Unknown,' would write the following about the rejection of the March 1 motion:

"The US administration was confident. However, the Parliament did not ratify the US demand for razor blades. The lack of support from a key NATO ally in the region was a political embarrassment, in addition to the serious operational imbalance ..."
https://m.haberturk.com/polemik/haber/819489-1-mart-tezkeresinin-tutanaklari-aciklanacak-mi
Those two are completely different things. You are equating not granting favors to stabbing in the back.

So what if Turkey didnt allow the US to use its soil to attack its neighbor. It is a national security issue for Turkey and if Turkey wants, it will not grant that favor to anyone. Turkey is not a proxy state of the US.

Has Turkey ever asked the US to allow us to attack mexico or Canada from their soil? Have we asked them something else of that kind? Actually we did ask something similar. We asked for their support during Cyprus peace operation. The result was not a warm support (the kind that they and yourself expect from Turkey) the result was a total arms embargo on Turkey.

On the other hand Turkey, in the spirit of alliance, did everything it could to help the US from fighting in Korea to deploying ISAF troops in Afghanistan. The only thing Turkey didnt do was that it didnt grant the teeny tiny favor of facilitating the total destruction of its next door neighbor by the US. Which is not even a fatal decision because there were plenty of ways for the US to attack, which they used.

If you think this justifies blatantly empowering, training and heavily arming Turkey’s mortal enemies along a 900km of border, then I have no more words to say to you.
 
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"It remains to be seen whether Russia views greater self-administration for Kurds as a policy solution or a tactic to generate leverage against Turkey and the Assad regime or to split an important ally from the U.S. camp. Russia has played the “Kurdish card” in the region for over a century but is also reluctant to ignite deeper tensions with regional powers, including not only Turkey but also Iran. The United States should seek to outline with Russia and other European partners a common policy for Kurdish self-administration in northern Syria that respects Syria’s international borders and state structure. A policy which is supported by both the United States, European partners, and Russia could strengthen leverage over Turkey on the issue."

Restoring the Eastern Mediterranean as a U.S. Strategic Anchor, CSIS

Writes an ally in the US, Russian adversary? What Russian adversary?
 
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Sorry guys but you are putting yourselves into shoes of super power countries. Unfortunately life is cruel if you disturb interests of both USA or RF, they will hit underbelly. I might be wrong but you also expect more than reality. I have the impression that you are confident standing against USA.
 
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Guys you are punishing USA for supporting ypg and prefer Russians for well attitude to Turkey however you miss something else. Russian federation is a mere country where ypg has own official office. Neither USA nor EU has any ypg Office. Until 90ies pkk dogs had been supported by Russians.
View attachment 545227

Pkk is in Russia not listed as a terror organization. Has any one ask why? In the past it would make sense, but what about presence?
 
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Pkk is in Russia not listed as a terror organization. Has any one ask why? In the past it would make sense, but what about presence?

EU and USA listed but they arming, supporting them. So lists are just bullshit when it comes to interests. At least Russians are honest. They say by this gesture, that they can use them anytime later.

Manly foe is better than sneaky friends, imo.
 
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Pkk is in Russia not listed as a terror organization. Has any one ask why? In the past it would make sense, but what about presence?
High Military Council Majlisul Shura of the United Mujahideen Forces of the Caucasus is an active group and listed as a terrorist organization in Russia but not in Turkey. Have you asked yourself why?

Recently:
Russia Jails Man For 18 Years On Terrorism Charges
 
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I'm asking your opinion : How do you solve this situation (S400) without making US or Russia angry at the same time ?!
 
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S-400 Debacle – A Close Look at Turkey’s F-35 Industrial Participation
March 5, 2019 - by Forecast International


by J. Kasper Oestergaard, European Correspondent, Forecast International.

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Turkey took delivery of its first two F-35s at a ceremony in Ft. Worth, Texas, on June 21, 2018. Due to a ban that prohibits in-country delivery of F-35s to Turkey, the nation’s future as a partner nation is in jeopardy. Source: The official F-35 site, F35.com
Background Information: Turkey is a member of NATO and a critical geopolitical partner, and has been an F-35 partner nation since the project’s official inception in 1999. The country is slated to acquire 100 F-35A CTOL models, with the first batch of 14 already contracted, making it the fourth largest F-35 buyer after the United States, Japan and the United Kingdom. Turkey is increasingly becoming a leader in aerospace manufacturing, and Turkish companies are expected to contribute about $12 billion worth of parts for the F-35. On June 18, 2018, the U.S. Senate passed a bill that blocks the transfer of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey due to Turkey’s decision to purchase Russian S-400 air defense missile systems. A few days later, on June 21, Turkey took delivery of its first two aircraft at a ceremony held in Fort Worth, Texas. For now, the aircraft are stationed at Luke Air Force Base for pilot training. On February 19, 2019, President Donald Trump signed into law the suspension of F-35 deliveries to Turkey.

With Turkey firmly standing its ground on its decision to procure Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile systems, the nation’s future role as a partner nation on the F-35 program is in question. Therefore, it is becoming increasingly relevant to take a close look at the role Turkey’s defense industrial base is playing in regards to the F-35 program. If Turkey is kicked off the program, the nation’s statement of work (SOW) will be up for grabs, so it should come as no surprise that rival F-35 suppliers are following the situation closely. While Turkey’s SOW can certainly be absorbed by the existing supply chain, the nation’s involvement in the program is massive and all the work cannot simply be moved overnight without causing major program delays. In practice, it will be a gradual step-by-step process where some work packages will be easier to move than others. In a letter sent to the House Armed Services Committee (HASC) chairman in July 2018, then-Secretary of Defense James Mattis said that removing all Turkish suppliers from the program could delay delivery of 50-75 aircraft for up to 18-24 months.

The largest Turkish F-35 supplier is Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), which has been supporting the F-35 program since 2008. TAI’s most complex work package is the manufacture and assembly of center fuselages as a second-source supplier. Northrop Grumman in El Segundo, California, is the main center fuselage producer and TAI is supposed to deliver 400 F-35 center fuselages. TAI also produces weapon bay doors and center fuselage composite skins and panels. Furthermore, the company manufactures the aircraft’s composite air inlet ducts. Some years ago, these were built by Orbital ATK (now Northrop Grumman) and are produced with automated fiber placement (AFP) equipment. TAI also builds 45 percent of all the F-35’s air-to-ground pylons (a precision-machined high-tolerance aluminum structure), with Terma Aerostructures in Denmark (45%) and Marvin Engineering in Inglewood, California (10%), making the rest of the pylons. The air-to-ground pylons carry ordnance and external stores and are part of the aircraft’s Alternate Mission Equipment (AME) package.

TAI-F-35.jpg


Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is the largest Turkish F-35 supplier. The company’s most complex work package is the production and assembly of center fuselages as a second source supplier to Northrop Grumman. Source: Turkish Aerospace Industries

Other Turkish Suppliers

  • Alp Aviation: On the program since 2004, Alp manufactures metal airframe structures and assemblies, landing gear components, and over 100 F135 engine parts.
  • Ayesas: Sole source supplier of two key F-35 components – the missile remote interface unit and the panoramic cockpit display.
  • Fokker Elmo Turkey (GKN): Manufactures 40 percent of the F-35 Electrical Wiring and Interconnection System (EWIS) and also supports TAI in the production of all center fuselage wiring systems. Fokker Elmo has also developed the EWIS for the F135 engine, of which a major share is produced by the company at its facility in Izmir.
  • Havelsan: Has been supporting the F-35’s training systems since 2005. Additionally, the company has been instrumental as the Turkish lead in developing the construct of the future Turkish F-35 Integrated Pilot and Maintenance Training Center (ITC) and associated training systems in Turkey.
  • Kale Aerospace: F-35 supplier since 2005. In conjunction with TAI, it manufactures and produces F-35 airframe structures and assemblies. Kale also supports Heroux Devtek as the sole-source supplier of landing gear up-lock assemblies. Additionally, Kale has established a joint venture in Izmir with Pratt & Whitney and is manufacturing production hardware for the F135 engine.
  • Roketsan and TÜBİTAK SAGE: Has partnered with Lockheed Martin to develop, integrate, and produce the precision-guided standoff missile (SOM-J) that will be carried in the F-35’s weapon bays. SOM-J is designed for use against heavily defended, high-value anti-surface warfare (ASuW) and land targets.
 
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