Turkey to Provide 34 T-37 Aircraft Free of Cost to Pakistan

[GriffinsRule]

Yep, but the low upfront cost of used airframes would temporarily offset it.

Except its not a viable option in the long run when you want the LIFT aircraft to also be used for training on the next gen aircraft PAF will be producing/co-developing under the AZM project. F-16s in this intermediary role will not be the right aircraft since they only would bring marginal cost savings and almost no help with modular avionics and other systems (Chinese and Pakistani).

 

[ziaulislam]

Not entirely no, else PAF would have already gone with that route. Upgrading displays and some avionics akin to what PAC Kamra has done with the Mushshak is not enough to turn an intermediate jet trainer into a lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT).

There are some things that set the two categories apart and it comes down to the operator on which ones they would emphasize more than others. For eg. PAF's ex-chief has been on record stating that they were looking for an appropriate LIFT trainer but one without an AB engine (to keep costs down). But to understand why PAF or any other professional air force REQUIRES a LIFT platform is due to the complexity of 4+ generation aircraft.

LIFT aircraft in the market include KAI T-50, Alenia Aermacchi M-346/Yak-130/Hongdu L-15 (same family of trainers), Boeing/Saab T-7A, and to some extent the Hawk Mk128.

Some of the characteristics of LIFT aircraft include:
- Radar: High end PD or AESA radar (Aircraft missing these compensate by using ACMI pods as well as radar emulation pods or embedded systems that simulates different radar emissions and other characteristics of friendly or enemy aircraft for training)
- Advanced Modular Avionics: What this means is not just having some fancy LCDs and calling it a day. The avionics in all LIFT aircraft are designed around open architecture that allows them to simulate the avionics of advanced jet, most importantly information and battle management systems.
- FBW & HOTAS: All LIFT trainers are FBW in order to be able to effectively mimic the flight performance of various aircraft an air force operates. This ties in with the modular avionics as well.
- Maneuverabilty: This also ties in with FBW systems as all LIFT aircraft have high G tolerances, and need to be able to achieve high angles of attack


The most important of all these factors is the advanced modular avionics structure. All these aircraft come with some sort of an embedded training system that allows the aircraft to emulate different radars, weapons, targeting pods, EW systems and finally having data link capabilities.

K-8 has none of these characteristics and even if PAF was able to source a fully digital cockpit in an attempt to upgrade some of the avionics, it still fails to meet every other critical feature that makes a LIFT set apart from an intermediate or advanced jet trainer.

Secondly, Pakistan does not have in-house capability to develop any of these systems in house and given that we are just starting to go down the road with the Air University etc, I don't foresee acquiring the capacity to develop a worthy system of the complexity required for another 20+ years. Hence it will need to outsource these jets. In this regard, we can not even go back to Hongdu to bring K-8 up to this standard as it will most likely be both technically and financially unfeasible, not to mention that have already gone the route of developing the L-15 with the help of the Russians instead of updating J/K-8. You can also see a similar situation with the US T-X program where both Textron and Northrop Grumman/BAE withdrew from the competition as their trainers could not meet the requirements and they would have needed a completely new clean sheet design.

So basically, K-8 in any form can not substitute for a LIFT.

So cant jft dual seater be used as LIFT..?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Except its not a viable option in the long run when you want the LIFT aircraft to also be used for training on the next gen aircraft PAF will be producing/co-developing under the AZM project. F-16s in this intermediary role will not be the right aircraft since they only would bring marginal cost savings and almost no help with modular avionics and other systems (Chinese and Pakistani).

Yep, but used F-16s buy a little more time. The LIFT will be a big expense.

So cant jft dual seater be used as LIFT..?

The PAF originally thought so (ACM Aman in 2015), but then it changed its mind (ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan in 2019). Note: ACM Mujahid Anwar Khan said the PAF needed a LIFT and announced that it'll buy 26 JF-17B in the same interview with Jane's.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Well, you would if US warms up a little. If used F-16A/Bs can come through from the Europeans, then the PAF will shelve the LIFT requirement for sure, IMHO.

If PAF wishes to replace F-7PG it could possibly do it with JL-9 (FTC-2000).
This aircraft is supersonic and has a single engine 2hrs of flight time without refueling and the latest FTC-2000G jet trainer is around US $ 8.5 Million.

AVIC brags about the FTC-2000G’s transonic performance—which is important for fighter aircraft designs. “FTC-2000G has remarkable maneuverability in high transonic regions at medium and low altitudes, with a low speed and take-off/landing capacity,” AVIC states. “The flight envelope is wide with broad field of view for pilots to control the front and rear cabin. The air equipment and weapon system is fully equipped with remarkable safety and reliability to replace both the Alpha Jet and the FT-7 in accomplishing basic and senior training tasks with other primer fighting and tactic tasks.”

The FTC-2000G is aimed at a market even lower than JF-17—offering less performance and capability at an even lower cost.
https://www.airplaneupdate.com/2019/09/ftc-2000g.html

 

[Joe Shearer]

Excellent post and thanks for clearing this up.

I agree. This really put things in perspective. Much appreciated.

Not sure why folks get caught up with the F-16 Block-72+ or Su-35 wishlists, this is the stuff that's actually interesting. For one, it's real (i.e., the PAF CAS said it), and second, it makes for a more specific, targeted discussion.

That, Sir, is merely the difference between fan-boys, who have had no responsibility for taking these decisions, and those who have had all the stress of deciding between difficult alternatives and living with the consequences. It happens in all environments where open discussions are possible, and is not unique to Pakistan or to India. It is just that we get to see more of it, being where we are.