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Truth vs hype of Indian defence modernisation in the last 10 years

Only if they had managed to finalise the deal for 126 MRCAs, no one would have questioned their modernisation plan. I know it's only one deal.. but it was a very significant one & the most talked about!
 
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It should be "Truth" not "Thruth" please correct it. Thanks!

No, since since there is a hype in the media about the defence modernisation or the Indian defence capability.

Now @sancho will be called congresse by modi lovers..

No idea of what you are talking. ;)

Add several Talwar class frigates to it.... and of dozens of MKI`s, Dhruvs, T 90`s, Arjuns etc etc

I purposly chose only those that started induction in the last 10 years, Dhruv for example started early and although they were constantly procured, the naval version and the Rudra are latest versions that were inducted recently only.
I also left out arms and capabilities that are under final testings, before inducting them into operational service, like DRDO AWACS, Arihant SSBN, stealth corvettes and destroyer or the LCA of course, which were launched or started production within the last years, but that will be commissioned only later, but are part of the short term modernisation too.

Add a bunch load of scams and corruption claims, policy paralysis, banning of multiple suppliers like IAI and others, sending IAF squadron numbers to their bare minimum, inordinate delays and non execution of many defense tenders, maintaining no accountability on performance and delivery of various defense PSU's. Most essential items havent even reached contract stage like the 197 heli deal, the refueller deal etc.

Though it wasn't all that bad but wasn't good either.

Don't take it personal, but your post is exactly the kind of generalisation that I am trying to work against. The idea that everything was bad and wrong in the last 10 years, that nothing was modernised or achieved and that EVERYTHING has to do with the MoD/DM. But it's by far not like that and one has to look a bit deeper to understant what is truth and what is hype!
 
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True,but they could've definitely done more.

Maybe, I am showing only what was achived and what many people simply overlook. That's why I said make your own conclusions and didn't added my own opinion.

Lets compare now our advances to that of our adversaries.
Was waiting for that :yahoo:

No please guys, this is not a vs thread and is not intended to make comparisons to other foreign forces, but to show what modernisations and new procurements were added in the recent years. You are welcome to add more arms that I have missed, correct me when I'm wrong and discuss about the conclusions you get from the shown capabilities, but lets keep as an indian military topic only.
 
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Don't take it personal, but your post is exactly the kind of generalisation that I am trying to work against. The idea that everything was bad and wrong in the last 10 years, that nothing was modernised or achieved and that EVERYTHING has to do with the MoD/DM. But it's by far not like that and one has to look a bit deeper to understant what is truth and what is hype!

The truth is that it was pathetic.

It was pathetic because the bygone decade was the period that Indian forces had the budget and all the possible options available to them compared to any other period in the last 67 years plus there was a ready laundry list of requirements both locally and from foreign manufacturers There was also a step by step, decade by decade modernization plan for all wings of the forces prepared by the forces themselves and also approved by the MOD and had funds allocated for it every year but sadly many of them haven't seen the light of day till date and many of them are / were crucial.
 
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The truth is that it was pathetic.

It was pathetic because the bygone decade was the period that Indian forces had the budget and all the possible options available to them compared to any other period in the last 67 years plus there was a ready laundry list of requirements both locally and from foreign manufacturers There was also a step by step, decade by decade modernization plan for all wings of the forces prepared by the forces themselves and also approved by the MOD and had funds allocated for it every year but sadly many of them haven't seen the light of day till date and many of them are / were crucial.

As said, that's the sad generalisation which is based on half truths only. Please look at the above shows procurements and tell us how it can be pathetic when we operate 2 aircraft carriers today, when we have the most advanced martitme patrol aircraft inducted, when we have very good tactical and strategic transporters now, when we have nuclear submarine and support vessels to extend operations to blue water areas, when we have crucial early warning aircrafts available and so on. Most of these are strategic assets, which multiplied the defence capabilities to new levels, compared to those they are replacing (P8I vs Tu 142/IL 38, C17 vs IL76, C130J vs AN32...).
There is no denying that there were also problems and mistakes, but even here, one has to look at the real reasons and and who really is responsible and not just generalise.
The mentioned LUH competition for example is on hold by IA not MoD/DM, because of a corruption case in IA not MoD/DM. So you are blaming the completely wrong side here and when you then ask yourself why IA is the only force that has not improved itself in the last 10 years in the same pace as IAF and IN clearly did, you might get to one of the real problems that causes delays.
Not the one that punishes wrong doing is the bad guy, but the one that acutually did something wrong! So when IA were not able to modernise their howitzers for decades, during different governments and defence ministers, because of constant corruption cases, you simply can't blame the government but has to take those accountable, that actually are responsible for the delays!

The simple fact is, that there are numerous of reasons why certain procurements are delayed, be it corruption, be it slow and faulty tendering and trials of the forces, be it development and production delays of the industry and of course also mistakes by the MoD for example by not combining procurement to speed up procurements and get rid of useless bureaucracies and all these sides needs to be taken accountable for THEIR mistakes and failures.

However, even with the problems, our forces are stronger than ever before and especially IAF and IN are showing a good pace of modernisations. But spending alone is not a solution, the efficiency of developments and procurements need to be improved. Pushing our industry to deliver and not only promise, to speed up tenders and procurements, to make new laws that cut bureaucracies and punish corruption in a stronger way, no matter from which side...
 
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Only if they had managed to finalise the deal for 126 MRCAs, no one would have questioned their modernisation plan. I know it's only one deal.. but it was a very significant one & the most talked about!

MoD finalised their side in 2012, what we saw then was, Dassault and their partners trying to find suitable Indian industry partners to divert prodution parts, according to the RFP requirements. But they also tried to move around the requirements to get more workshare for their parnter Reliance. This alone has cost us at least 6 month of delays and the IAF was fully supporting HAL and MoD in their decision to strictly follow the RFP rules.
So what many blamed MoD for, was not in their hand at all and "that" delayed things close to the elections, which then made it impossible to take such a big decision anymore.
Now we have to see when a new read DM will come and what the BJP policy in the defence is, to see how soon the MMRCA can be decided. If they follow the original rules, they will insist on fulfilling the industrial parts too.
 
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Only if they had managed to finalise the deal for 126 MRCAs, no one would have questioned their modernisation plan. I know it's only one deal.. but it was a very significant one & the most talked about!

And the induction of Scorpene submarines and the aritllery guns. Also a replacement for INSAS rifle.
 
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Lets compare now our advances to that of our adversaries.

Pakistan Military has modernized in a way more effective manner than india did.

Pakistan Military is MASSIVE and in last ten years, it modernized by adding these weapon systems to its arsenal in great numbers.

1- Al Khalid/Al Khalid-1 Tanks

Capture1_1.jpg


(These tanks are some of the most latest tanks in the region along Arjun-II that indian army is planning to induct).
2- Different types of advance AWACS for multi-layered network-centric Air Power

I) Saab 2000 Erieye

Saab+2000+Airborne+Early+Warning+and+Control+Aircraft+erieye+aewc+awacs+pakistan+air+force+paf+jf-17+thunder+f-16+fighter+jet+fc20+j10+radar+coverage+340+1000ooddd.jpg


II) Powerful ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle

zdk-03-12-large.jpg

3- Pakistan's indigenous JF-17 Thunder multirole Fighter Aircrafts made in collaboration with China

34872d1387703523-pac-announces-start-jf-17-block-2-construction-sd-10.jpg

4- Massive air-to-air refuellers IL-78MP for Pakistan Air Force

IL-78P+Provides+Pakistani+Air+Force+with+Air-to-Air+Refueling+Capability.jpg


5- Sophisticated F-22p Frigates for Pakistan Naval Forces

F-22P_PNS_Zulfiquar.JPG


6- Most latest F-16s armed with the best BVR missile in the region. In essence, the best BVR fighter aircraft of entire subcontinent

Pakistani_F-16.jpg


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This is just a start. Pakistan Military has also modernized its communications, have adapted superior training mechanisms, changed the uniforms, ground forces and air forces are more integrated than ever before, and etc. etc.

In 2000, the conventional difference between india and Pakistan was much, much more than it is today. Pakistani conventional forces are a million-men military armed-to-teeth with tanks, artillery, cruise-missiles, fighter jets, submarines, sophisticated radars, transport aircrafts, and what not?

Add to that, the nuclear forces of Pakistan that can evaporate any hostile nation around it within hours.

Pakistan has greatly modernized its nuclear-forces over the past decade, too.

All of this with so much fewer resources than others. Nations around us should learn about effective management of resources from us.
 
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Don't take it personal, but your post is exactly the kind of generalisation that I am trying to work against. The idea that everything was bad and wrong in the last 10 years, that nothing was modernised or achieved and that EVERYTHING has to do with the MoD/DM. But it's by far not like that and one has to look a bit deeper to understant what is truth and what is hype!

Here's my take on what they mean by reduced. There's no way to actually reduce, unless weapons were actually destroyed or become obsolete relatively, or something of that nature.

India isn't at full capacity so there's no way you can be weaker today than yesterday. Mostly reduce is like WW2, where 10 million troops are there and most must go. War's over.


HOWEVER, India hasn't done enough to address "threats." While I don't think China is a threat, even if we go to war, it won't be a threat, cause India's existence won't be put into question, nor will heavy casualties be the case, but in terms of matching capabilities or surpassing, India has not done enough, period.


So in that sense, India is stronger than 10 years ago, but capabilities against "threats" have actually decreased. The Indian army's ability to handle a situation is worse than 10 years ago, because the "threats" are much more capable.That I believe is the more fair assessment.

Of course, whether you think that is the case is another matter all together.
 
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