Traditional chinese costume . We eliminate your misunderstanding of Chinese costume and hairstyle.

[Andrei]

"All the Chinese whom we have yet seen, from the highest to the lowest, have their heads close shaved, except on the crown, where the hair is left untouched by the razor, for about a couple of inches in diameter, and is suffered to grow to a great length, being considered as a very becoming ornament. It is always black, and as strong and coarse as horse hair, which it much resembles. It is platted in a tress, and falls down the back like a Ramillies queue. I have seen some of them a yard long."

by 馬戛爾尼

That's exactly manchu hairstyle , because manchu rulers forced chinese shave this hair style, Macartney recorded is the true history. Before qing dynasty, chinese never had this kind hair style, we even didn't shave hair

 

[Snomannen]

That's exactly manchu hairstyle , because manchu rulers forced chinese shave this hair style, Macartney recorded is the true history. Before qing dynasty, chinese never had this kind hair style, we even didn't shave hair

I'm glad that you say that he recorded the true history, so tell me, where is the "金钱鼠尾".
And I just showed you the hairstyle of Shang people, so why don't you go back and take a look.

Also Mr.顧炎武 said such thing during Qing Dynasty, would you be so kind to tell me his consequence. 王夫之 and 嚴繩孫 as well.

 

[sahaliyan]

You should know history is not created by your thinking.
Answer the question please, and what the differences between 内地卫所 and 羁縻卫所.

The 羁縻 means not really controlled,the Ming dynasty want to use the Jurchens to against the Mongols,and use some Jurchens against other jurchens
I already proved Ming dynasty not really controlled Jurchens,the Jurchens have their own small kingdoms,and received the Ming,Mongolian and Korean titles for their benefit.

 

[Grand Historian]

you want primary quote? fine, let us read record of qing dynasty
顺治二年六月十五日（1645年7月8日）颁布“剃发令”，“自今布告之后，京师限旬日，直隶各省地方自部文到日，亦限旬日尽行剃发。若规避惜发，巧辞予辩，严惩不贷。”

record of qing dynasty by qing government

顺治二年七月初九日（1645年8月29日），清廷又颁布“易服令”，规定“官民既已剃发，衣冠皆宜遵本朝之制。”

Neither of the quotes work, 滿清稗史(1987) and 清史探微(2011) aren't primary sources.

 

[jkroo]

The 羁縻 means not really controlled,the Ming dynasty want to use the Jurchens to against the Mongols,and use some Jurchens against other jurchens
I already proved Ming dynasty not really controlled Jurchens,the Jurchens have their own small kingdoms,and received the Ming,Mongolian and Korean titles for their benefit.

Not convincible again. You should explain following facts.
1、左軍都督府 奴儿干都指揮使司

2、龙虎将军宝剑 and 建州左卫指挥使

3、羁縻卫所的来由、功能和作用。

If you can't totally answer these questions, then sorry I have to admit that you learn Chinese history by westerner's textbooks.

 

[sahaliyan]

Not convincible again. You should explain following facts.
1、左軍都督府 奴儿干都指揮使司

2、龙虎将军宝剑 and 建州左卫指挥使

3、羁縻卫所的来由、功能和作用。

If you can't totally answer these questions, then sorry I have to admit that you learn Chinese history by westerner's textbooks.

明代女真人不仅接受明朝封赠的官衔，也接受朝鲜和蒙古的头衔，这都在朝鲜和蒙古史书中有记载，但是事实上三方都不能真正控制女真人，女真人是由贝勒们控制着，这些人接受明人的官衔和敕书，这样可以和明人进行边境贸易尤其是马市，接受明人官衔不代表明人真正能控制他们，因为过去很多国家都接受中国官衔，清代的时候也有外国这样，但那属于中国吗？
If Jurchens were really Ming subjects,then how you view the Manchu conquest of China?Just a civil war?And what about those fought against Manchu invaders?

 

[jkroo]

明代女真人不仅接受明朝封赠的官衔，也接受朝鲜和蒙古的头衔，这都在朝鲜和蒙古史书中有记载，但是事实上三方都不能真正控制女真人，女真人是由贝勒们控制着，这些人接受明人的官衔和敕书，这样可以和明人进行边境贸易尤其是马市，接受明人官衔不代表明人真正能控制他们，因为过去很多国家都接受中国官衔，清代的时候也有外国这样，但那属于中国吗？
If Jurchens were really Ming subjects,then how you view the Manchu conquest of China?Just a civil war?And what about those fought against Manchu invaders?

历史基于事实，其它多说无益。卫所有哪几类？他们的权利范围是怎么样的？
另，女真人在中国历史上久远多了，有很多融入进了汉族，这是无可争议的事实。

生于斯长于斯的历史没有必要过多演绎，哪个民族统治哪个民族并不重要，封建历史早已翻去，承认历史并不代表荣耀抑或屈辱，特别对现今构成中国的56个民族而言。

你的历史观很有问题，而且使用的支持材料和思维方式来自于西方，这个对你并无裨益。

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Hanfu is part of Chinese culture. Chinese are not Japanese or Turkish (not saying they have anything to do with each other; one is advanced and the other is not) - we value freedom, real freedom to do things, not paper freedom. People here have the freedom to wear Hanfu and promote Hanfu.

Qipao and magua are also part of Chinese culture, however, they are not the only Chinese culture, and they are not native to Han culture. Hanfu is equally valid.

 

[sahaliyan]

历史基于事实，其它多说无益。卫所有哪几类？他们的权利范围是怎么样的？
另，女真人在中国历史上久远多了，有很多融入进了汉族，这是无可争议的事实。

Jurchens of Jin dynasty not the same as those Jurchens of Ming dynasty.The Jurchens of Ming dynasty are those not came into central plain in Jin dynasty
明代确实有真正被明人控制的女真人，这样的人三万卫，东宁卫有许多，还有快活，自在两州，这些是明人实际控制的，其中三万，东宁的女真人属于军籍女真。快活，自在则是附籍，不属军籍
但是对于海西女真，建州女真，东海女真，其实明人并无真正控制，而且经常攻掠明边。在土木之变中，海西女真的旧权贵们差不多都覆没了，而叶赫，辉发，乌拉，哈达的崛起了，这些人大多数不是明初任命的卫所头目后裔，而大多是些新崛起的权贵，叶赫甚至来自蒙古

 

[Jlaw]

Neither of the quotes work, 滿清稗史(1987) and 清史探微(2011) aren't primary sources.

Next time ask the viets to get non Vietnamese primary sources when they make up history.

 

[jkroo]

Jurchens of Jin dynasty not the same as those Jurchens of Ming dynasty.The Jurchens of Ming dynasty are those not came into central plain in Jin dynasty
明代确实有真正被明人控制的女真人，这样的人三万卫，东宁卫有许多，还有快活，自在两州，这些是明人实际控制的，其中三万，东宁的女真人属于军籍女真。快活，自在则是附籍，不属军籍
但是对于海西女真，建州女真，东海女真，其实明人并无真正控制，而且经常攻掠明边。在土木之变中，海西女真的旧权贵们差不多都覆没了，而叶赫，辉发，乌拉，哈达的崛起了，这些人大多数不是明初任命的卫所头目后裔，而大多是些新崛起的权贵，叶赫甚至来自蒙古

卫所之间本身就有争斗，奴儿干130卫，西北七卫，于明时，这种争斗司空见惯，因此，对卫所的控制方式也不尽相同。
并且，你低估了女真人对历史的影响力，女真人不只局限于明时东北女真部。
说实话，与你讨论这些很是吃力，就此打住。提醒：讨论中国历史时少用西方思维对你帮助更大，抑或，用周易及儒教思维对你更有帮助。

 

[Grand Historian]

Next time ask the viets to get non Vietnamese primary sources when they make up history.

Its pointless arguing with them,they can't read classical Chinese then they try to lecture you on how Chinese history works.

 

[Aepsilons]

Japanese books about 剃发易服
図書カード：No.4271
作品名： 支那人弁髪の歴史
作品名読み： しなじんべんぱつのれきし
著者名： 桑原 隲蔵　

Very interesting. Thank You.

 

[Zsari]

The enforcement of Manchu hairstyle is an attempt at forced assimilation. It is nearly impossible for a minority to assimilate an overwhelming majority, as such the overall policy was a failure, but the pigtail itself was pretty successful that required a forcible removal under the Republic. That said, the revival of Han customs and force assimilation of minority would be a long term solution to the nation's ethnic tension. Whether Hanfu would be part of that is unknown, but government should encourage such movement by utilizing Hanfu in formal occasions like the graduation ceremony instead of the out of place cap & gown.

 

[Aepsilons]

This is german books record 剃发易服， i study in germany, i have lots German materials about manchu 剃发易服 here
China-Chronologie 1: Mandschus, Kolonialisten, Nationalisten, Japan - die Zeit von 1644 bis 1911

Eine Dynastie aus der Mandschurei beherrscht Han-China -
bis zur Fremdbesetzung der Mandschurei


Quellen

-- Robert C. North: Der chinesische Kommunismus. Kindler Uni-Bibliothek 1966

-- John F. Fairbank: Geschichte des modernen China 1800-1985; dtv, 1986

-- Haydt, Mathias u.a.: Ostasien-PLOETZ. Geschichte Chinas, Japans und Koreas zum Nachschlagen; Verlag Ploetz, Freiburg / Würzburg 1986

-- verschiedene Internetbeiträge

für Rahmendaten:
-- Hermann Kinder/Werner Hilgemann: DTV Atlas zur Weltgeschichte Bd. I. und II. 21.Auflage, München 1986

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In English
China-Chronology 1: Manchus, colonialists, nationalists, Japan - the period from 1644 to 1911

A dynasty from Manchuria dominated Han China -
to the foreign occupation of Manchuria


source

- Robert C. North: The Chinese communism. Kindler University Library 1966

- John F. Fairbank: History of Modern China 1800-1985; dtv, 1986

- Haydt, Mathias u.a .: East Asia-PLOETZ. History of China, Japan and Korea to look up; Publisher Ploetz, Freiburg / Würzburg 1986

- Various Internet posts

framework for data:
- Hermann Children / Werner Hilgemann.. DTV Atlas of World History Vol I and II 21.Auflage, Munich 1986

Excellent source @Andrei - San. Truly this is valuable information and again, don't take things too seriously. If you feel that you are being harassed by some members here, either ignore them, or if they are personally insulting you, report them. See you around, tomodachi.