Towards a new & Improved Fauj

[cheekybird]

Yaar Mani... they knew about the operation... people at the top and the government was told about it... there is no way on earth that they did nt know... this is all drama about stealth choppers etc...

it is nt that our Fauj is dumb... its the politics of the country and a few traitors in it that is dumbing them down...

i love PA but who gave them the permission for drone attacks?it was gen.musharraff,so u cant just put the blame only on our govt.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Did nt I mention traitors in the Army...

Musharaf should be put in Jail... humiliated so that he is made an example...

 

[T-Faz]

As i have always said that no one should be above the law and no one is allowed to justify his misdeeds by citing others. i have also said that the military do has it share of buggers and there's no denying the fact. Having said this one should not forget that the ratio of corruption as compared the civilians is much lower.

So you admit there is corruption but you cite the civilian corruption for comparisons sake and to make the military corruption seem to be the lesser of two evils. Why must there be a comparison between the two as if its a way of justifying what has occurred and continues to occur in the military hierarchy.

Now that's strange.

The military itself and the companies it run are all accountable just any other public/private enterprise is. Just because a few top notches (who doesnt in this world) manages to embezzle a few buck doesnt necessary means that there's no accountability in these establishments. How do you think they pay the taxes and they never go in loss as compared to their counterparts in the civilian world? i think i would to and extent saying that there's more accountability in these organizations as compared to the civilians as the Chairman Pak Steel and Dir PIA are always appointed by their beloved politicians and these guys by happening to be their yes-men, no one asks them questions when they eat up the company, on the other hand the military run businesses are answerable to the complete PA Dte, the COAS and its employees. Well i include the employees here as our employees have yet to go hud haram as their counterparts in Pak Steel, PIA and Pak Rail has gone!

PIA and other such enterprises have also been under military control, after all we were under military rule for an entire decade previously and the military leaders continue to appoint the same old faces who are involved in large scale corruption scandals. This accountability is present everywhere but the army as the sacred cow of this country is much more difficult to question and asked to be more transparent in its dealings. Lets be honest here, we have been under military rule for a good number of years but the problems that plague this nation persisted even during military rule.

^^ i wonder how did you manage to miss Musharraf.

Anywaz, the examples you have quoted cites only a few from the top whereas my concerns have been regarding the peons, clerks, door keepers etc in the civilian domain. Also, let's be realistic, is there any Chairman or a Dir that the Pak Steel and PIA have had that have not embezzled millions, to date? Now dont get me wrong, i am in no way justifying the misdoing of the above mentioned Officers, but then one need to understand that the men that run these organizations and those who form part of these are no angles. You know what, you guys try becoming more Muslaman than the Maulvis when it comes to the military and the Army in particular, but what you forget is that men from the same very Nation that has gone corrupt and inept at the same time over a period of 60 years are the ones which constitute these organizations. The question now is, why do the same men eat and shyt at the same time when they become DCOs/EDOs, Politicians and CEOs/Chairmen, but when the same men wear the uniform, the numbers and quantity lessens? Now one can attribute many reasons to this difference, let's say uniforms dont have as much public dealing as the civilians have, or may be the discipline in the forces bar them from doing anything stupid or may be the system (of accountability) that we have in place dont allow them to go out of their pants, but then that's a separate debate for a separate thread, for now we need to understand that angles would not come down from heavens and run these organizations rather it would be you or me who would form part of the same. Have you ever wondered that just 20 years back we did have corrupt individuals but back then no one would be daring enough to spend the ill-earned money in the public sphere as he would fear of getting labeled as corrupt, today being corrupt is a fashion. So let's be realistic and concentrate on the more important issue of the difference of thresholds between a military-man going corrupt and a civilian who (most of them) dandi mars everytime he gets a chance, even if we agree on comparing anything. BTW, let's see if you can come up with names of those in civies and those who headed your public enterprises who do not fit in the above mentioned category. As we say, exceptions are always there, but this exception would fit on a very few officer (a few of them whom you hve already mentioned) but i am sure the opposite exception would gather more civies.

The people expect better from our military, it is the sole institute of this nation that is capable of achieving substantive results for this nation but alas their own doings have hurt this nation drastically.

The kind of of deals and incidents the men I named are mentioned in had very negative influence on this nation. Gen. Fazle Haq was not alone when he become one of the biggest drug barons of the time, the police and other institutes were told to overlook all that occurred and the ISI was complicit in allowing the drug trade to flourish at the expense of this a nation.

Similarly, all these political disasters that we have in this nation have gained power through their military backing as well. Zardari's father Hakeem was part of Zia's gov, so was Shah Mahmoods and many others.

Its a vicious cycle and you are very correct when you state 'is hamam mai hum saray he nangay hain'.

So let's be realistic or else you would end up quoting some more names and would stop doing it and i would keep on quoting my names as my list goes on like for ever.

At least we know of the corruption amongst the civilian entities and we openly ridicule them while the army kept their men away from such ridicule.

One, you have managed to list down the faujis, let's see if you can do the same in case of the civilians. i am sure you might face difficulties in doing so as the sheer numbers alone might make it difficult to remember/recall all their names.

This discussion is not about civilians, its about military men and I can assure you that the numbers are large here too, Fazle Haq wasn't alone when he was involved in the drug trade.

Two, you need to tone down the 'massive', or else we will continue to argue.

Its more than massive actually.

The Golden Crescent Heroin Connection

The BCCI Affair - 11 BCCI, The CIA and Foreign Intelligence

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

I could go on.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

all of the top goverment officials & militry knows about this operation now they r making different excuses

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

all of the top goverment officials & militry knows about this operation now they r making different excuses

Exactly... Sad is nt it... The traitors at the top dont even know how to improve the image of Pakistan... instead of the world praising Pakistan for help in getting rid of a terrorist... we are being cursed for protecting him...

Thank you (IDIOTS) Generals of PAK FAUJ and of course our heroes Zardari and Gillani...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

This Army and Government... Kaheen Ka Nahee Chora Hum Ko Zalimo Nay...

I swear I cant even tell you the things I m hearing from influentials within Europe about Pakistan... I just have to keep my id hidden now... whos Pakistani??

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

This Army and Government... Kaheen Ka Nahee Chora Hum Ko Zalimo Nay...

I swear I cant even tell you the things I m hearing from influentials within Europe about Pakistan... I just have to keep my id hidden now... whos Pakistani??

not only u my friend every pakistani in forign countries are hiding their nationality becuse of these fools
every one of them is making different excuses zardari aur gilani har jaga american operation ki tarifein kar rahey hain they think we r fools
our airchief says that radars were off that day they r not telling the truth they r only lying

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

khuda janey ab agey kya ho ga

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Cant let them know my plans... Post Deleted...

 

[Patriot]

This Army and Government... Kaheen Ka Nahee Chora Hum Ko Zalimo Nay...

I swear I cant even tell you the things I m hearing from influentials within Europe about Pakistan... I just have to keep my id hidden now... whos Pakistani??

Yeah! Fauj should fight with America!We will beat America in war like Taliban and Afghanis/Iraqis have beaten them.We should think our penis rather then our brain.
/sarcasm.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Yeah! Fauj should fight with America!We will beat America in war like Taliban and Afghanis/Iraqis have beaten them.We should think our penis rather then our brain.

we cant fight with us at this time first we have to improve our defence capabilities then we can do it

 

[Xeric]

After today's episode of Q&As between the 'Leaders' of our Nation and its Defenders:

Towards a new & Improved Fauj - koi kasar reh gayee hai?

Your turn, guys.

 

[VCheng]

from: The party is over | Opinion | DAWN.COM

The party is over


By Shada Islam | From the Newspaper

MUCH of the world’s goodwill and patience as regards Pakistan has run out. Let’s not kid anyone: for all the bravado being shown by the country’s discredited politicians and military brass, Pakistan’s reputation has hit rock bottom. It is not going to recover for some time unless the country’s leaders agree to make a fresh start.

Those who have got the country in this awful mess will most likely find safe haven elsewhere, leaving behind a nation shattered by the ruling classes’ duplicity and/or stupidity in failing to deal with religious extremism and mismanagement of the economy. Ever since Osama Bin Laden was killed, found living practically next door to the military academy in Abbottabad, like many other Pakistan-watchers, I have followed developments in Pakistan with a rising sense of anger, frustration — and grim amusement.

The Pakistani political and military establishment’s ability to delude themselves over their reputation and the country’s role in the world has always amazed me. My columns have often struggled to reflect how people outside Pakistan — including EU officials, ordinary Europeans and many members of the Pakistani diaspora — really view the country, what they actually say when the ministers and diplomats have left the room and they know they can talk freely and off-the-record to a journalist.

I’ve always believed it counterproductive to live in a state of denial. But that appears to be the permanent state of mind of many in Pakistan, the general belief being that if you say it loudly enough, often enough and to as many possible as possible, somehow an illusion can turn into reality. Unfortunately, the real world does not work like that. So here’s my modest attempt to distinguish between myth and reality in an honest worldview of post-Osama Pakistan.

— The US operation against Osama is an ‘embarrassment’ for Pakistan. No it isn’t: it is a humiliation, a slap in the face for the country’s leaders — civilian and military — who have been shown to be either duplicitous and/or clueless. I’m frankly not sure what is worse. Instead of trying to strut their stuff, Pakistani policymakers should be apologising to the nation — and to the rest of the world — for having willingly or unwittingly misled everyone for the last 10 years.

— As in the past, Pakistan will be able to overcome negative world opinion. Not really, not this time. Pakistan’s reputation — not really that bright at the best of times — has taken a very strong blow. Rebuilding global goodwill will be an uphill struggle for even the best-paid American PR firms, not to mention Pakistan’s beleaguered diplomats.

— People forget. Again, not this time. There have always been suspicions about the Pakistani security services’ ability to ‘look two ways’: clamp down on the terrorist groups that they do not like while helping and ‘nurturing’ those they see as ‘foreign policy tools’ to project Pakistani influence in Afghanistan and India. The Osama episode proves that global misgivings about Pakistan’s double game were right. Good luck to those who try correcting that impression.

— Pakistan is an important, indispensable nation. Whatever it does, it will be forgiven. After all, the US administration has promised to keep providing aid and the EU has said that the country needs “more support than ever”. Yes, some people do believe that Pakistan’s help is needed to stabilise Afghanistan, especially in view of US plans to withdraw in 2014. But others in the US and Europe — especially in Congress and the European Parliament — disagree with that view and believe it’s time to put relations with Islamabad on the back burner. The result of the debate will depend on how Pakistani leaders conduct themselves in the coming weeks and months.

— As Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said, this is an “intelligence failure of the world”. Well done, Mr Gilani. Passing the buck is an old Pakistani tactic and the speechwriter who came up with this argument probably deserves a medal. But this is really Pakistan’s failure. Mr Gilani and others should take responsibility for it, and do better in dealing with the many terrorist networks still operating inside and outside the country.

— The Pakistan Army works in the country’s national interest. It probably does but I have often wondered when Pakistan would wake up and question the myth that the army and security services are the only stabilising forces in Pakistan. Let’s be frank: Pakistan is in this mess over Osama — and more generally as regards the fragility of its institutions — because the security forces have played hide-and-seek with Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups and disseminated a fictional narrative of power and authority to Pakistanis and the rest of the world.

— The civilian leaders deserve world support. Yes, but only to a point. Civilian governments in Pakistan have given democracy a bad name, led a trusting population up the garden path and filled their pockets with ill-gotten gains. If they want public support, Pakistan’s civilian leaders must come clean over past mistakes, assert their authority over the military and get the economy in order.

In other words, it’s time to wake up and get to work. Pakistan’s ruling elite has to stop pretending it can keep living in a twilight world of ambiguity and half-truths. With honest leaders, countries can change their destinies and restore their reputations.

Pakistan’s long-suffering population deserves a better future.

The writer is Dawn’s correspondent in Brussels.

 

[Developereo]

The party is over


By Shada Islam | From the Newspaper

Yawn.

Yet another hack journalist trying to earn his two paisa with the usual grandstanding rant.

 

[VCheng]

Yawn.

Yet another hack journalist trying to earn his two paisa with the usual grandstanding rant.

Fair enough.

I am sure that future events will prove either the "hack", or you, correct.