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Towards a new & Improved Fauj

I think what is ignored here..
Is that planners in India do realize that detente with Pakistan is fast becoming the best option.. best to leave an infected area alone ..
India knows that there is very little possibility of a quick skirmish to achieve objectives vis a vis Pakistan.
Since it will go down to tit for tat.. and then all out war.. something that leaves a nuclear scenario inevitable due to the obvious conventional superiority enjoyed by India.
In addition to it.. apart from security concerns.. there is no long term economic gain to India with a broken Pakistan.. a marginally unstable Pakistan that can still provide a trade route is better than a gang land.
China on the other hand.. is competing for the same fossil fuel reserves.. and the same trade routes that India wants.
Moreover, it is the Ruling Asian Giant, something the Americans pump up the Indians about everyday.. how can one let such a challenge go unanswered?
So while it will maintain the necessary forces to ensure a comprehensive conventional defeat of Pakistan in a short conflict(hopefully) if the need arises.. as it can do so now...
its focus is shifting to the north..and the south.. where it wishes to exerts its presence in the oceans.

The only possible motive for a disproportionate aggressive response by India to any threat to its security from Pakistan would be concrete assurances that the Nuclear weapons will not come into play.. an assurance only the Americans can ensure.

The bolded part, its like the Sun rising in the West.
 
Perhaps... perhaps not..
Sellouts are abundant.. in Pakistan..
In the words of American's themselves..
we are prepared to sell our mothers and sisters for the right amount..
what are nukes compared to that.
 
Perhaps... perhaps not..
Sellouts are abundant.. in Pakistan..
In the words of American's themselves..
we are prepared to sell our mothers and sisters for the right amount..
what are nukes compared to that.

Hope you don't believe that!!!!!!!!!!

I for one don't.
 
Call it an agnostic belief if you will..
Still.. it is an unlikely scenario..
 
I thank Hon Muse for starting this thread. There is little doubt that paradigm shift is needed in our security thinking..............................................infra-structure and most of the populace will continue dreaming and living on the supposedly glorious past that Muslims enjoyed until the 17th century and to hell with the future.

I am all in favor of your 'wishes' by heart and soul, but my intellect (?) pulls me to somewhere else;

niaz said:
Anyone not blinded by the poison of bigotry will realize that India is leaving Pakistan far behind in everything; be it education, health, law and order, economy or general standard of living. Pakistan has lower literacy rate than Bangla Desh and Sri Lanka.
Good for them :tup:
But in comparison, how many challenges(internal, external, etc.) these countries faced?

I for one do not believe that Quaid e Azam and other leaders of Muslim League fought for independence to turn Pakistan into a dark age Islamic Khilafat or Emirate. Quaid and our founding fathers wanted a progressive and modern Pakistan. To achieve this end our top priority should be education (not fake degrees), health and improvement of standard of living of the ordinary Pakistanis. For this we need to give economic improvement our top most priority
Red part is out of place in my knowledge; a historical reference will be helpful to understand the context of your comment. all rest is fine by me.

niaz said:
A. To raise the income. This can only be done thru taxation of everyone including the land mafia and agriculture.

B. To cut national expenditure this includes cutting the size of the armed forces even if it results in lowering nuclear threshold.

We need a mean and lean Army, Navy and Airforce. Stress should be on quality of hardware, quality of training and quality of leadership. This can only be done if armed threat from our Eastern border is minimized. This means we defuse Kashmir situation.

A. All tax laws are in place (This may be a shock to you, including agricultural tax, property deals etc), our problem lies somewhere else.
B. Now please define, what is a lean mean fighting machine when faced with an enemy with the size of India? What is the current status/level of our forces in respect of "lean mean fighting machine standard".
I have read your great piece on Pakistani Naval requirements in Naval Section, and to date result is that we lagging behind with some margin.

niaz said:
This most important objective will never be achieved unless it is realized by everyone that we cannot snatch IOK from the jaws of India thru military force. ............ This can only be resolved thru a tripartite agreement as suggested by Hon Muse even if it means progress at snail’s pace. Nothing has been done for the last 60 years, what difference would another ten or twenty years make?
Kashmir situation is already or was diffused pre Mumbai Attacks, Musharraf had ceased to utter the "UN security council resolutions mantra" and had offered to work out other 'solutions'.
As of Red part, Tali aik hath say nahe bajte.

niaz said:
Need of the times is to setup 'Think Tanks' free of political and military interference. Their task should be to come up with ideas and devise ways to double our national income every ten years. That is, to achieve a growth rate of about 8% every year for the next generation.
We need to learn to act, our nation is already full of thinkers, statesmen, etc will novel concepts and ideas under their belt. We have to learn to convert our dreams into reality: dream of dams (30 year old study on World Bank expense, identified 54 sites suitable for dams, no.1 was Kalabagh), Dream of Coal utilization (China produces about 65% of its electricity from coal fired plants, and here we are sitting on one hundred of miles long deposits, discussing), Copper and Gold deposits (Sandek and Ricodek, while LME of copper is $9700 per ton, just playing) , etc etc.

niaz said:
Any economy that grows continuously at about 8% each year will need very large number of skilled manpower and high quality education. This could even require a reverse brain drain that is already happening in India now. There is no other way can we provide jobs and housing for the burgeoning population.

Problem for us in not Economy, but the management i.e., Government that we have; for example Tax to GDP ratio which is now about is 9.5%(one of the lowest) was about 14% when General Zial-ul-Haq, met his Creator. you can check the differential in states revenue if older standard was met.
Can any body tell me what was the parity rate of Pak rupee with Indian rupee then.

niaz said:
However none of this can be achieved unless we totally rid ourselves of the jihadi and Taliban cancer. We have had thousands of Madrasahs for the last twenty years, look what they have produced? Suicide bombers! Imagine if the same schools instead imparted technical skills, how much more useful their graduates could have been to the society?
Now this is a strange comment;
First, correction; we had thousands of Madrasahs for last hundreds of years. And they have produced many good scholars, average scholars, not good scholars and bad scholars, just like any other institutions of the world.
The question of what is the curriculum and what should be is a separate issue.
If these madrasahs are producing suicide bombers then why for last 5 years, why not during Kashimiri Struggle or Afghan-Soviet War?

niaz said:
I am however not hopeful. Taliban and their direct or indirect supporters and sympathizers will not go away. Resulting law and order situation will ensure that Pakistan continues as she has done for the last 5 years.
If US of A do not leave its footings in Afghanistan, then your prophecy will come true. and if US of A leaves Afghanistan, Pakistani Taliban will only be found in history books.
Afghani talibans are't going any where in either case.

niaz said:
Our Armed forces will continue to eat up 50% of the resources at the expense of education, health and infra-structure and most of the populace will continue dreaming and living on the supposedly glorious past that Muslims enjoyed until the 17th century and to hell with the future.
A big fallacy on your part, I am afraid. Can you please quote me the figures/amounts the big public sector organizations (Railways, PIA, etc) loose yearly, what is the potential state revenue lost by by malpractices and ineffiencies of FBR, etc etc.
 
Santro

I read your post with great interest, especially how the armed forces are now a career, (it always was), you may find an interesting echo of your views at
The American Conservative » Civilian Control, Not Citizen Soldiers


Santro, have you noticed how many articles and op/ed pieces now speak of "Paradigm change" when they speak of Pakistan transitioning?? Yes the armed forces must change, the strategic environment has changed, and the army specially must change - it cannot be the abode of the mediocre anymore, on the contrary the armed forces must now be among the most educated both in every imaginable science as well as the humanities and, the most technically advanced/proficient - of course the defense production industries are now a public enterprise but this too must transition, however, the management and institutional know how will reside in the former armed forces personnel who occupy positions in these industries - retirement, now will not mean the Pind and the Adda, but another career - therefore the need for the armed forces to begin building schools, schools, schools, I am sure that he day is not far when a captain cannot see promotion to Major without a Masters degree.
 
Santro

I read your post with great interest, especially how the armed forces are now a career, (it always was), you may find an interesting echo of your views at
The American Conservative » Civilian Control, Not Citizen Soldiers


Santro, have you noticed how many articles and op/ed pieces now speak of "Paradigm change" when they speak of Pakistan transitioning?? Yes the armed forces must change, the strategic environment has changed, and the army specially must change - it cannot be the abode of the mediocre anymore, on the contrary the armed forces must now be among the most educated both in every imaginable science as well as the humanities and, the most technically advanced/proficient - of course the defense production industries are now a public enterprise but this too must transition, however, the management and institutional know how will reside in the former armed forces personnel who occupy positions in these industries - retirement, now will not mean the Pind and the Adda, but another career - therefore the need for the armed forces to begin building schools, schools, schools, I am sure that he day is not far when a captain cannot see promotion to Major without a Masters degree.

Muse..
there is a little hassle to be overcome at the end of the line..
Most Generals and brigadiers.. have or are about to start a side business.. which is great.. unless they end up in a position cultivated by their proxies before them..
Many generals do land another career.. managing the army's cash cows in the private sector..

The problem is that the mediocrity prevails due to sycophancy.. and people from are societies are suckers for sycophants..
Girayien.. bradri dont just haunt the political structure.. they haunt the army as well... big time.
Although .. in an unusual way.. Kayani has helped and damaged the nepotism in the army at the same time..

During Musharraf's tenure.. there were army Lt's with little or no deployments.. just sitting pretty in their camps.. and planning MbA's..
Under Kayani though..many of these silver spooned Lt's were shoved off to the mountains or the deserts..
And whilst the Army must build schools.. its not its job..
Its job description is to ensure the nations borders are secure from both internal and external organized threats.
for that.. the level of training needs to jump another level..
Ironically. the WoT has actually helped this.. and more and more troops are battle hardened.. and officers now have better tactics and weapons at their disposal.. along with a change in the way the command structure and planners acted... although Mr K is responsible for a lot of the tech change in the army.. not surprising since he still prefers to check his email himself..and browse the net.
But that is only half the equation....
Its the PMA that needs change..
and who gets into the Army.. whilst the influx of applicants from all walks of life is excellent... this should not imply taking in the third division guy just because he fits some quota..
In no offense to anyone.. but the Army's intake from Urban areas..has gone low.. unless the candidate is related to a military officer..they rarely apply.
Because the PMA is considered a hell house.. the culture of the army as pithy.. by such people.
Why?..
the caliber of officers.. or specifically.. the gentleman part of the officer is gone..
only in recent times.. have I finally met young lt's who looked and talked smart..
its not just the army.. its the navy and airforce as well..
Ive mentioned this earlier.. and to tell you the truth.. the above paragraph is only about the cosmetics.
Never really a gauge of performance... but nostalgia for a bygone era nonetheless.
Although.. where this sandhurstish look of our armed forces has been replaced by "bad-lagaam" Islam on steroids.. the result has been far far worse than a few drinks at the mess..
Recent cases include a senior medical corps surgeon.. who left his patient at the operating table because he had to offer Namaz..
Thankfully.. the CO made him pray for mercy after his transgression.
 
Muse..
there is a little hassle to be overcome at the end of the line..
Most Generals and brigadiers.. have or are about to start a side business.. which is great.. unless they end up in a position cultivated by their proxies before them..
Many generals do land another career.. managing the army's cash cows in the private sector..

The problem is that the mediocrity prevails due to sycophancy.. and people from are societies are suckers for sycophants..
Girayien.. bradri dont just haunt the political structure.. they haunt the army as well... big time.
Although .. in an unusual way.. Kayani has helped and damaged the nepotism in the army at the same time..

During Musharraf's tenure.. there were army Lt's with little or no deployments.. just sitting pretty in their camps.. and planning MbA's..
Under Kayani though..many of these silver spooned Lt's were shoved off to the mountains or the deserts..
And whilst the Army must build schools.. its not its job..
Its job description is to ensure the nations borders are secure from both internal and external organized threats.
for that.. the level of training needs to jump another level..
Ironically. the WoT has actually helped this.. and more and more troops are battle hardened.. and officers now have better tactics and weapons at their disposal.. along with a change in the way the command structure and planners acted... although Mr K is responsible for a lot of the tech change in the army.. not surprising since he still prefers to check his email himself..and browse the net.
But that is only half the equation....
Its the PMA that needs change..
and who gets into the Army.. whilst the influx of applicants from all walks of life is excellent... this should not imply taking in the third division guy just because he fits some quota..
In no offense to anyone.. but the Army's intake from Urban areas..has gone low.. unless the candidate is related to a military officer..they rarely apply.
Because the PMA is considered a hell house.. the culture of the army as pithy.. by such people.
Why?..
the caliber of officers.. or specifically.. the gentleman part of the officer is gone..
only in recent times.. have I finally met young lt's who looked and talked smart..
its not just the army.. its the navy and airforce as well..
Ive mentioned this earlier.. and to tell you the truth.. the above paragraph is only about the cosmetics.
Never really a gauge of performance... but nostalgia for a bygone era nonetheless.
Although.. where this sandhurstish look of our armed forces has been replaced by "bad-lagaam" Islam on steroids.. the result has been far far worse than a few drinks at the mess..
Recent cases include a senior medical corps surgeon.. who left his patient at the operating table because he had to offer Namaz..
Thankfully.. the CO made him pray for mercy after his transgression.

A misunderstanding and misapplication of Islam will deliver nothing but more problems... The understanding has to be enlightened...

I liked your point about WoT actually helping the Army... it reminds me of the golden words... They plan, but Allah plans too ;)
 
It is quite possible that the original article in question, or not in question, whatever, might have found its rightful place in GHQ; Dustbin. That has as much to do with what GHQ might consider its rightful place, as with what the intrinsic merit of the article might have been. Unfortunately, the intervention seemed to be more a piece written to debunk and to explode at the point of a pin than a piece written from the perspective of flexibility in the nature, structure and organisation of the Pakistani military.

The quoted article, written by one called 'Shahzad Chaudhry' (Writer), captioned Retooling militaries — changing paradigms and subsequent posts by some poster reminded me of following joke;

An old cowboy sat down at the bar and ordered a drink. As he sat sipping his drink, a young woman sat down next to him. She turned to the cowboy and asked, "Are you a real cowboy?"
He replied, "Well, I've spent my whole life, breaking colts, working cows, going to rodeos, fixing fences, pulling calves, bailing hay, doctoring calves, cleaning my barn, fixing flats, working on tractors, and feeding my dogs, so I guess I am a cowboy."
She said, "I'm a lesbian. I spend my whole day thinking about women. As soon as I get up in the morning, I think about women. When I shower, I think about women. When I watch TV, I think about women. I even think about women when I eat. It seems that everything makes me think of women."
The two sat sipping in silence.
A little while later, a man sat down on the other side of the old cowboy and asked, "Are you a real cowboy?"
He replied, "I always thought I was, but I just found out I'm a lesbian."

Now the original article; Three main (many others were hinted) points were raised;

  1. Al-quaida and taliban factors,
  2. Other dissenting groups, BLA (my example)
  3. Nature of war
and considering above (supposedly) challenges, what should be done? the writer weaves a pattern and build a case, where threat level form insurgency is such high and longterm, and further challenges nature of war itself, to home in his point of major/radical change in army.

Now, first point, Are Taliban groups strong enough, wide spread enough to be destabilize Pakistan?; Bomb blasts, attacks on soft and hard targets are there to stay, and its nothing knew that we have been pit against. But what is the result so far?
Writer has thrown in the other dissent parties to add weight for his cause in paradigm shift in Army.
This has to be understood that Al-quida and Taliban are two different factors and players, two different problems and require two different solutions; but is this enough to convert a regular Army to a SWAT team, Or High tech Guerrilla Force.
A full fledge army to be converted into a fanciful description of lean mean fighting machine. Writer is toeing Americans's lines and demands blowing every thing out of proportions.

How long the problem will linger on, for two decades, as suggest by Writer? may be yes, only if US of A will persist with its presence in Afghanistan for that much period. When US of A is out, menace of Pakistani Taliban will be taken care of in a span of one or two years or less.

Nature of War (war that is), has not change, but only tools/toys of trade and methods of their employment/deployment etc. Writer, it seem to me, has taken that American policies and practices of encircling and entrapment, political bickering, sanctions etc. as a change in nature of War.

Pressure, coercion, sanctions (economic or otherwise) etc were/are part and parcel of any war strategy. As of mentioned examples in red, Iraq and Afghanistan are befitting examples of total declared war(of US of A) in all its glory(or hideousness) where are tools and tricks of trade applied, all others had other objectives.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

It is fascinating to see that a section, even an intelligent section of Pakistani opinion is under the impression that what is going on today is transient, and will go away as soon as those pests, those party-poopers, the Americans, get into their planes and fly away. All will be well then; Al Qaeda will have nothing to get belligerent about, the Taliban will go back to bullying women, the TTP will simmer down as the full pressure of the Pakistani Army bears down on it, and life will be just as it was, idyllic and perfect, before the Americans swung by on their way to Baghdad.

Speaking as a citizen of a nation given to its own paroxysms of fantastic delusions, one cannot help but sympathise. How simple life was before the Americans! All that is needed is to send them on their way, and everything will turn back to its simpler version BBE (Before Bush Era) and we can relax. As it happens, it doesn't look quite the same from a few hundred miles to the east. Pakistan looks to have changed. Permanently. The good ol' days aren't coming back, whether or not the Americans are going back.

There is reason to believe that the deliberate militarisation of Pakistani society may have had its inevitable effects, and that society is now increasingly inclined to follow its leaders' directions through adoption of violent methods. It does look suspiciously as if the genie is out of the bottle, and isn't going back in a hurry. It doesn't look like the culture of violence which has come in is going away in a hurry, given that the only competent institution, the Army, has put it bluntly in stating that its own soldiers might not be willing to pull whole-heartedly in favour of a move against internal terrorists.

This is said from a complete understanding and acceptance of the three-fold division of insurgent organisations in terms of objectives and strategy: in terms of the Taliban determined to hold their boundaries and limits of power as broadly as it can, even if hostilities with the Pakistan Army is involved; in terms of the TTP opposed to the Pakistan Army operating against the Taliban and also against itself; and in terms of the Jehadi conglomeration remaining broadly aligned with the Army, but not content to stay idle, engaged in each organisation enlarging its own presence on the ground, with or without accompanying sectarian violence. In spite of understanding that not every faction of the insurgents is inclined to war against the regular Army, it seems inevitable that any obstacles put in the path of the Jehadist factions will result in gradually increasing friction with the Army.


Now the main Part of Article,

Up till, this point in article, the writer, emulating a magician, presented the above 'facts' with flowery style and went on to produce a Rabbit

Oh dear.

We certainly aren't entering this discussion calm and clinically detached, are we?



Major reorientation of Army
While converting one or two brigade strength, for COIN operations in support of Paramilitary Forces hold some value, but to suggest, a major portion of Army to be converted to something like a guerrilla force; just mind boggling.
A whole army be converted to Counterinsurgency force?????

It would have been nice to have been of any nationality in the world other than Indian before commenting further, because the inevitable construction that will be put on the words to follow are boringly predictable. However, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

If the major threat to a country is from irregular forces and from irregular warfare within its own boundaries, why should the bulk of its forces not be reoriented to COIN? I presume that the change-over in its entirety is a dramatic flourish both on the side of the proposer as well as of his enthusiastic critic.


As of Red part, G3/MP5/AK47 totting, in fancy battle fatigues,........ a scene from action Hollywood movie.....

That, of course, rules out any discussion of a force of this technical nature and cross-section. Good, we progress; a couple more such swipes and putdowns and we can conclude, "No case, M'Lud" and go about our respective business.


Most funny part is this;
"Deep penetrations either side of the borders are improbable"
how so???? writer never cared to explain his grounds of probability analysis

Perhaps because it is too obvious to require a detailed explication?

Perhaps it has not escaped attention that nearly 30 divisions face each other across the various broad lines, dotted lines, dotted and dashed lines and every other kind of line between our two nations. What this points to is that unless there is a dramatic break-through in some sector, a cataclysmic collapse by one of the two contenders, there is likely to be deadlock of the sort seen in two previous engagements. Greater loads of explosives may be used, greater concentrations of tanks may be used, fortifications may or may not be used. However, every division commander will have read sensational accounts of how his opposing numbers have the task of grabbing as much land in quick swoops as possible. Every division commander who has read this, and those who do not read with any enthusiasm, will be savagely determined not to allow a single square mile to be given up to the enemy, that this, and not the bangs and crashes of regular warfare, is what war with India will be about.

Under the circumstances, deadlock is complete. The inevitable outcome is a stalemated battle-front, with neither side able to make substantial progress against the other.

There is one factor to be considered. Without getting bogged down in competitive jingoism, there is an increasing impression that the Pakistan Army is seeking sufficient technology, and more than that, sufficient numbers in at least two key areas, main battle tanks and light fighter aircraft. There are two opposite trends within the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force assuming that under the circumstances, it is justified to go in for large numbers of simplistic tanks on the one hand, and it is necessary to go for the best of the world's best in terms of fighter and assault aircraft on the other hand.

Given a semblance of realism in this evaluation, the Pakistan Army is likely to face significantly greater numbers of tanks; will that not help the Indian Army to capture land? But here is where the nuclear deterrent comes in; it is well-known in staff training and other tactical training courses that the Pakistan Army will not allow more than a fixed percentage of degradation of its forces, measured in terms of increasing inability to match the breadth of the IA attacks. In such a situation, a nuclear situation will arise, a nuclear button could get pressed.

This then is the justification for claiming that no deep penetrations will be possible.

The immediate rejoinder is likely to be: if it is the presence of large masses of armour on both sides, then one side converting en masse to light infantry specialised in counter-insurgency is likely to disturb this equilibrium and create a temptation for the side not so converted to use its now overwhelming superiority in tanks to just occupy most if not all of Pakistan.

The response to this would be, quite simply, given that the major portion of Kashmir is in Indian hands, given that the major waterways is under Indian control, why should India attack in the first place? That, truly, is not the way Indians work (Chanakya said so :p:).


Second most funny part;
"lethality and nimble-footedness — modernised infantry with significantly improved mobility through smart aviation for both logistic support and combat"
Gun totting or with some RPGs to face the armored columns, of Tanks, APCs, IFVs, reinforced concrete bunkers and defensive formation, slit trenches, land mines fields etc. etc......
Moreover, writer seem to limit mobility through "smart aviation"... no need to touch the land.... by air we will prevail......

The fury with which this passage above was greeted is a little difficult to comprehend. Truly. There is nothing in the list of military objects appended to force a return to a regular WWII army of some infantry, some armour and some artillery divisions.

It seems that the conversion schemes are considered to be drastic, root and branch. Must they be that way? Is it not possible to visualise a strategic reserve of ground attack helicopters and aircraft, and a portion of the Infantry Divisions as regular Infantry Divisions, backed up by major concentrations of artillery, and a minimal complement of tanks? Even conversion of one-third of the existing army to a light infantry force of the sort described earlier in the reform article will have a sizeable impact.


It is for me very hard to decide that "The writer is more lousy military analyst or Economist" please help me to decide.

Without any attempt at aggravating the situation or of vitiating the atmosphere, this is an easy one.

Anyone who is stupid enough to argue against your point of view is a more lousy military analyst than a more lousy anything else. Any worthwhile military analyst will avoid battle where the prognosis is a long-drawn out battle of attrition. Avoiding battle with your point of view is the equivalent of not attacking Russia; what's good enough for Napoleon and Hitler should be good enough for the likes of us.


With major portion of Kashmir in indian clutch, with major water ways, why would india "initiate" war? indians don't work that way.

The most dizzying moment is when a known truth is re-discovered. This situation above, as might perhaps be appreciated, has been the case for some time now.

What follows from this is that there is still not much likelihood of an Indian attack, even were the Pakistan Army to be drawn down and reorganised as a largely counter-insurgency oriented light infantry army.

,
So if any indian soldier farts at border facing east, nuke the basterd; right?...OK lets disband the army.... and nuke everyone on any hint of aggression.

With regard to the conditions indicated by you for initiating a nuclear strike, I can only offer the agnostic's equivalent of prayer, a fervent wish, that the decision-makers will wait for a rather more substantial indication of offensive behaviour than you might be content with. Some, errrm, rather more solid evidence, if you don't mind.

As we have just discussed, the Indians don't do things that way. Chances are that Indian planners will be very, very happy if they are left to work out the very different problems of defence against China. Unlike Pakistan, China is a hugely different proposition. Like Pakistan, however, she will be facing India across internal lines of defence.


What other reason indians have for the arms buildup, Martian attack???
Indians have adequately (according to their threat perception) build up their forces against Pakistan and now need to bolster the danger of Chinese dragon, as usually done by US of A.


so indians will replace their tank regiments with mules?

The point being?

If this is to express scepticism about the entire disappearance of the Indian strength in armour, the response is that the possibilities of a military reserve built around the surplus armoured forces, and located in a central Indian location are very evident. It makes sense in many ways.



Military is't the right expression here, SWAT is better suited.


so what was first, hen or egg; conflict or tools to resolve conflict???

I am quite sure that the article in question would have found its rightful place in GHQ; Dustbin.
 
Pakistan Army , need improved

a) Transportation , a army of 500,000 -Million soliders, has only 8-10 C130 transport planes, you can only move about 80 soldiers at a time , so our ability to
Mobilize is suspectible.

b) Also we lack helicopters, providing air support to strategic needs of ground forces , airlifts , and dropping pocket of soliders over enemy lines

c) Lack of High altitude Missiles , make the soliders/ tanks /APC sitting ducks

These are the immediate needs of our forces, secondly - the over all physical strength of the soliders need to be improved. What we need is Mix martial arts to be mandatory aspect of solider's life

Our army is sorta stuck in 1970's mode , using the bell helicopters reminds of me American forces back in the day.

The structure of the army is same - same equipment US had in 70's

There is a technological gap , of 20 years compared to counter parts in UK , US, Russia , China

Modernization of Army needs

a) Satellite imagery
b) Transportation capabilities of units
c) Defending high altitude attack
d) Early warning
e) Radars and equipment for defence of units
f) Improvement in capabilities of single solider (rations, medical care, welfare)


But lack of transportation planes, and lack of High altitude missiles , and helicopters comparable to an army fighting with swords and sheilds vs opponents who have guns , and granades.
 
Hey bro.. how about the independant decision power . Courage and planning to save the ppls of Pakistan from the intruders especially the US/NATO......
in our top Generalz...:azn:
 
We need a mean and lean Army, Navy and Airforce. Stress should be on quality of hardware, quality of training and quality of leadership. This can only be done if armed threat from our Eastern border is minimized. This means we defuse Kashmir situation.

Niaz sahib,

IMO focusing on upgrading the quality of hardware and training (even with a leaner military) will end up being a more expensive proposition than the current manpower heavy 'mid-tech' military we have. High tech and higher quality hardware will cost a pretty penny when imported, and significant investment in domestic R&D and infrastructure if procured locally. Increasing the quality and quantity of training will also entail significantly higher expenses in procuring, setting up and maintaining the necessary equipment and infrastructure to support that increase. As it is our training costs are significantly higher than they used to be since soldiers in the Army are now being trained in FIBUA and COIN as well as their conventional military training. Significant resources have been put into (and continue to be) setting up the infrastructure and procure equipment required to support FIBUA and COIN training.

Returning to the author's point about 're-orienting the military' towards the domestic threat - I believe that has already been undertaken to a significant degree with the additional training being imparted (mentioned above). I also believe that the author is completely wrong in suggesting a permanent or complete re-orientation of the military (anything significantly more than what is already being done) since it ignores one of the more widely understood and critical lessons of COIN, namely, 'the locals taking on security responsibilities'.

Pakistan is an ethnically diverse nation and FATA especially has historically been autonomous. The Army, comprised largely of soldiers from outside of FATA, will always be an outside force given the current cultural and political dynamics of FATA. As such, the Army is only useful as a COIN tool in limited applications, such as those we have already seen - large scale military operations utilizing FIBUA and COIN tactics and strategy to clear out organized extremist networks, and maintaining a presence till local authorities are strong enough to take control. The key here is not the 're-orientation of the military', rather the 're-orientation of the civilian administration and law enforcement'.

We can 're-orient the military' all we want, but at the end of the day the military will still be an outside force and the locals will have to step up and take charge in governance and enforcing law and order through whatever local security setup they put in place. What is needed more than 'reform in the Fauj' is reform in the civilian administration and civilian law enforcement and intelligence apparatus. Without that we have no long term and sustainable solution to extremism, terrorism and lack of law and order.
 
Yes, he has a point there, but my point is that it is fairytale thinking to imagine that either General Kiyani or Lt. Gen. Pasha will wake up one fine morning and say, let's have peace with India. It's not going to happen.

What makes you argue that they two generals mentioned above are against peace? Kiyani was after all involved in the back-channel peace talks with India under Musharraf.
 
and the people want Khilafat... so Pakistan Army must listen to its people and not act against the wishes of its people...

The people can show they want Khilafat by voting in political parties that propose amending the constitution to being about 'Khilafat related changes'. Till that happens please stop raising this subject in every thread.
 
The people can show they want Khilafat by voting in political parties that propose amending the constitution to being about 'Khilafat related changes'. Till that happens please stop raising this subject in every thread.

Thats good to hear.. So the Army is with us on this...

Good to know!!!

btw my post was response to Rafi, not something out of the blue...

Oh and if you have links with some influentials please give them a phone call and ask them not to throw everyone seeking Khilafat into jail...

Regards... Your previous post was excellent
 

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