Towards a new & Improved Fauj

[VCheng]

The Army should not interfere in governance? Absolutely.

And yet continue to do so actively and on a continual basis. Why?

The Army should not usurp power and impose military rule? Absolutely.

And yet they have done so multiple times, and keep this threat hanging like Democles' sword.

The Army should continue to improve its operational abilities? Absolutely.

But not at the expense of all other crucial sectors such as education and health. TEN TIMES the budget for education and more needed? Really?

 

[FaujHistorian]

.......
And yet they [Pak army] have done so multiple times [took over the governance in Pakistan], and keep this threat hanging like Democles' sword.

Dear Mr. Cheng,

Your comments and questions show an utter lack of knowledge about the history of the region in particular and the world at large.

I'll not start civilian vs. army debate as it is counter productive. Just remember a simple set of rules.

-- If Pak civilian admn fails for some reason to keep the country stable, Pak army will take over
-- If Pak army fails for some reason to keep the country stable, some foreign army will take over.

This set of rules is not Pakistan specific. You can see that in practice, all over the world.

Please note this set of rules applies when you do fair historical analysis and DO NOT (and I repeat do not) believe in constipated conspiracy theories.

Peace.


P.S. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto declared himself a Civilian "Marshal Law" administrator following the same set of rules as described above. .

 

[muse]

You distort and obfuscate sir

So what's the point of engaging you further - good day and good riddance to you, Sir.

 

[SQ8]

Dear Mr. Cheng,

Your comments and questions show an utter lack of knowledge about the history of the region in particular and the world at large.

I'll not start civilian vs. army debate as it is counter productive. Just remember a simple set of rules.

-- If Pak civilian admn fails for some reason to keep the country stable, Pak army will take over
-- If Pak army fails for some reason to keep the country stable, some foreign army will take over.

This set of rules is not Pakistan specific. You can see that in practice, all over the world.

Please note this set of rules applies when you do fair historical analysis and DO NOT (and I repeat do not) believe in constipated conspiracy theories.

Peace.


P.S. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto declared himself a Civilian "Marshal Law" administrator following the same set of rules as described above. .

Yet to see countries that endured such crises.. somehow that soon.. with the army declaring itself the savior ..Surviving for too long..

all across the world sir.

Unless off course.. you intend to compare Pakistan with Burma.. ??

 

[VCheng]

-- If Pak civilian admn fails for some reason to keep the country stable, Pak army will take over

..which would be fine, except that the military actively engineers and is involved in such failures.

-- If Pak army fails for some reason to keep the country stable, some foreign army will take over.

... in other words, everybody should continue to fear that the army IS the STATE as the self-appointed final defenders.

Please tell me why would anybody want to take over 180 million people and all the attendant headaches IN THE 21ST CENTURY?

(You may be surprised that I do know all about the two nation theory, and a fair bit besides, so please spare me sixty year old rhetoric. Thanks.)

 

[FaujHistorian]

......the [pak] military actively engineers and is involved in such failures [in Pakistan governance].

Dear Sir,

I requested not to use constipated conspiracy theories. Thank you.

..
Please tell me why would anybody want to take over 180 million people and all the attendant headaches IN THE 21ST CENTURY?
..

Headache of stabilizing Pakistan is a lesser of the two evils. Where the much bigger evil is the emergency chopping, death, and destruciton a la Afghanistan or Somalia etc but 40 times the population.

..
(You may be surprised that I do know all about the two nation theory, and a fair bit besides, so please spare me sixty year old rhetoric. Thanks.)

Region's history didn't start with TNT (to be precise MNT Multi-nation theory). This comment shows your lack of appreciation of the region's history that goes much beyond the last 60+ years.

peace.

 

[VCheng]

Dear Sir,

I requested not to use constipated conspiracy theories. Thank you.

And I requested you to get your head out of the rear end of the digestive tract whether constipated or not.

Those are not theories. (The latest is Kayani's remarks documented in Wikleaks.)

 

[FaujHistorian]

Yet to see countries that endured such crises.. somehow that soon.. . ??

Dear Sir Santro!

This comment of yours shows utter lack of historical knowledge. There are many many examples once you free yourself from germs and viruses that infected you with "anti-Pakistan army" disease.

1. BDesh - A country that was considered 1000 times more dhoom-cratic than the lowly West Pakistanis. Soon after "liberation" they turned into a pile of minced meat their Banga Buddhoo + every child + granpa + granny + uncles + Aunts, men women. Only one daughter survived because she was out of the f ing country. Sh. Mujeeb was a national leader in West Pakistan. Sometimes incarcerated but still a LEADER. In dhoom-cratic Sonar Bangla, he was quickly put into a meat grinder. And you still want to spread the stink of constipated conspiracy theories. Shameful. utterly shameful.

2. Indonesia. Significant number of years under military rule

3. Turkey. Multiple periods of army control.

and the list goes on and on.


Dear Sir, As I suggested in the first post on this vein, that you should be willing to get out of anti-Pak $hitehole, and smell the fresh air to do the fair and balanced analysis.

peace.

 

[Xeric]

but then we should also be able to pose similar question to the armed forces without having our nationalism, patriotism and whatever being questioned as the "Stop Maligning" piece did --

Kyn nahi ji.. Please, please.

Who have stopped you from 'posing similar questions' (as if even we had and you'd had stopped) to the armed forces? But then we have an issue, we still arent clear as what exactly is it that you want from the armad forces, seriously. Is it that you want the armad forces to stop playing as in you own words 'more musalman than a maulvi' or is it that you want the armad forces (the Barri Fauj in particular) to stop interfering with the political decision making, or is it that you want the armad forces to reduce its size, lower the defence expenditure, rely more on indigenous production, go hi-fi read tech (even when you ask a budget cut from them), or is it that you want the armed forces to forget about india, not all of it but some of it and the portion released so should than transform into a COIN specialist etc etc.

What exactly is that you pose the armad forces with?

After all who is preventing the army from .....

Ji, ji.. pochain pochain..from what..???



Musey, let's refrain from vague demands. It has been quite long now (starting from the discussion in TT sec) that we dont see you guys satisfied with the Fauj's performance, but still we dont see any clear demand-list from your side although you have taken help from AVMs and other 'intellectuals'. It's high time that we start talking in tangible terms. See, AM and others have been very clear when they demand something from the govt and the politicians. For instance, they ask them to reduce upon their personal expenditures, they ask them to bring the SOEs back on track, they ask them to put a stop on corruption, they ask them introduce tax reforms and so on and so forth, but we dont see you doing the same.

Is it that you deliberately want the issue to remain vague?

 

[FaujHistorian]

......Those are not [constipated] theories. (The latest is Kayani's remarks documented in Wikleaks.)

And you are still stuck as in constipated?

Kiyani's remarks were nothing more than......

---- If Civilian gov results in the "instability", then army will be willing to step in.


peace.

 

[VCheng]

And you are still stuck as in constipated?

Kiyani's remarks were nothing more than......

---- If Civilian gov results in the "instability", then army will be willing to step in.


peace.

Do you mean to say that is is NOT sedition for the COAS to be thinking about dismissing civilian authority? Other than banana republics like Burma, where else would the military usurp that kind of authority for itself?

 

[FaujHistorian]

.....Other than banana republics like Burma, where else would the military usurp that kind of authority for itself?

Dear Sir Cheng,

See post number #233 to see examples of army take over.

The latest example is Egypt.

Sedition charges are easy to level by someone living 10000's of miles away in the comfy apartments of the West.

Shameful to put such charges on soldiers who are giving the ultimate sacrifices for their beloved country.


peace.

 

[VCheng]

Dear Sir Cheng,

See post number #233 to see examples of army take over.

The latest example is Egypt.

Sedition charges are easy to level by someone living 10000's of miles away in the comfy apartments of the West.

Shameful to put such charges on soldiers who are giving the ultimate sacrifices for their beloved country.


peace.

Egypt, as well as your other examples, are those of "banana republics". Please read my post again: Other than banana republics like Burma, where else would the military usurp that kind of authority for itself?


Edit: "Banana republic is a pejorative term that refers to a politically unstable country dependent upon limited economic resources, and ruled by a small, self-elected, wealthy, corrupt politico-economic plutocracy or oligarchy."

 

[Xeric]

Must be some sort comprehension problem - I very much agree with your position -- and I'm suggesting that we allow the same for the army - is that fair?

Who is preventing the army from..... well, I think you are aware of the criticisms, in particular of incompetence, then there is the criticism of being overly political as if a political player in domestic politics, well, you are aware of these criticisms., we all are --- what's important is that you allow the same for the army that you seek for the politician and bureaucrats - Is that not fair?

A quickie;

Insurgency is a high priority threat (rather a priority 1 threat) as of today, india on the other hand is a constant (rather a perpetual) threat.Spoon-feeding!!

Hun dasso, ki kariye...?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Egypt, as well as your other examples, are those of "banana republics"....."[/I]

Sir,

First you and your ilk say military takeovers happen in Burma only. When provided with several examples besides Burma, you hide behind "grammar-ies". Why don't you accept the simple fact, that you started posting in this thread without doing proper homework.

Living in the West 10000's of miles away from Pakistan is good for you.
Throwing $hite on Pakistan from a distance is cowardly at best and
thus bad for us Pakistanis living and sacrificing IN Pakistan.


peace.