Tough love! Modi’s raising Balochistan doesnt mean he has abandoned hopes of a historic peace

[Hellfire]

@Arsalan

Please see the passage in red. You seem to have written that in response to this:

Joe Shearer said: ↑

The plan is quite hardened. I shudder in laughter at the consequences of it. But appreciate it, albeit it could have been 20 years back or right after 1971. Ask @Joe Shearer. I am afraid that is all I can speak. Beyond is not my domain.

I never said that!

Please tell me that we don't have two Joe Shearers on the forum.

He was quoting me, I had gone psychotic today!

 

[SQ8]

Working out who made the first move is not as straightforward as we might think. An history of this region's intelligence by-play would make very curious reading, but in a role of specific advocacy, I would like to argue that we followed suit, never using trumps.

Then we descend into the argument of chicken and the egg.. and the dinosaurs and the amphibians and the troglodytes and so on.

 

[Arsalan]

Just area hasn't shrunk.

Regardless of the area or population involved, the atrocities are no different from those in Palestine!! So "banayy ga Palestine" do not makes much sense as i see there is not much to be done to get there, you are already there!!

@Arsalan

Please see the passage in red. You seem to have written that in response to this:

Joe Shearer said: ↑

The plan is quite hardened. I shudder in laughter at the consequences of it. But appreciate it, albeit it could have been 20 years back or right after 1971. Ask @Joe Shearer. I am afraid that is all I can speak. Beyond is not my domain.

I never said that!

Please tell me that we don't have two Joe Shearers on the forum.

Oh no no,,,
some mistake in multi-quote option. It was not you at all and as Hellfire have already clarified, it was his post..

He was quoting me, I had gone psychotic today!

Sorry for the confusion. I will edit it as well.
Edit: DONE!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Then we descend into the argument of chicken and the egg.. and the dinosaurs and the amphibians and the troglodytes and so on.

That is where we are stuck: one side insisting on the letter of the law, the other side insisting on the spirit of the law, in this case, the law governing the constitution of the two dominions, and the law relating to the creation of the two, incorporating the fate of the princely states.

This will never end.

On the other hand, we have an opportunity to shed these burdens and walk to a new set of competitive ideas, which might be easier to reconcile.

It is clear that the circle we have to square is the essential Pakistani position that a Muslim is not comfortable under Hindu rule, and the essential Indian position that religion can be neutralised by a secular constitution and an implementation of that secularism in daily life. Unfortunately, here that Indian ideology is no longer in exclusive control of the premises. The alternative ideology, that south Asia is for south Asians, and those who have their allegiance to extramural concepts and theologies cannot qualify, is of recent origin. It is not clear if it is here to stay. If it is, then it is bad news for all inclusive political positions.

The third alternative is to ignore all solutions not based on empiricism. If whatever is theoretically argued, proved and presented is ignored, on both sides, about both sides, then we have a glimmering of a choice. If we forget why Kashmir ideally should have joined a Muslim-majority state, or why the Maharaja's sovereign privilege is not to be flouted, we should agree that each side has a contribution to make.

The Indian side has to swallow hard, roll back the extraordinary legacy of the Indian defence of this space and its inhabitants, and step back from its existing position. It has to acknowledge its own contribution through rank bad governance to the problem (my friend B. R. Singh Nain, former Principal Secretary, and sometime Advisor to Farooq Abdullah, has written a candid middle in Times of India today; even those of us who dislike the Times Group and its cynical money-grubbing antics should read it). It has to stop fiddling with adjusting a setting here and changing a setting there, and look at fundamentals. Without throwing the pro-Indian elements, of whom there are hugely many more than a jaundiced view will admit, to the wolves, Kashmir has to be given the maximum autonomy permissible, and even some more to be teased out of the possibility of Constitutional amendment, of both constitutions in question. Open borders are more difficult to implement, although they have been proposed by many.

The Pakistani side has to swallow its sense of entitlement based on religion and remind itself that this to be brought into the reckoning any more. If it wishes to contribute, it may do so with some sacrifice of its own: Kashmir will not be Pakistani in its entirety, but a troubled, distressed part of it may gain that psychological Elysium that it has been taught to want. For that, Pakistan has to stay aloof and not insist on intruding itself into the Vale as a predetermined condition for neutrality and fostering of peace.

These are views that a great many Indians might subscribe to. It is not that in our own little nook, our private mailing list, this has not been explored at very great length, and the opinion of various eminent thinkers invited, to the edification of all. It is apparent from those discussions and others in other fora that some consensus is possible on these lines, and there might be support for it even from the right wing bravos.

Will it get a hearing? Might there be some cautious steps taken towards it, ONCE THE PRESENT TROUBLES ARE QUIETENED DOWN?

 

[truthseer]

The only solution to Kashmir I can see is an Independent Kashmir, and that means both Pakistani and Indian Kashmir. Sadly, I don't see that ever happening. India won't give up their land for us

 

[Levina]

Thank you for your kind words. It is indeed the poorest, a large part of this is due to the entrenched feudal culture. Some skilled labourers are bought in, but the numbers are tiny, in actual fact when a few workers from the Punjab were killed there, people just snubbed the region. Now there is a massive skills gap.
As fewor development, the lack of schooling is a major problem. There isn't any industry and the infrastructure is appalling.
As for the government, the citizens of the land of my forefathers has to hold them to account

Thanks.
Your posts, on this thread, have been very informative.
I read this somewhere that Baloch were originally Kurds who absorbed Brahui cultural traits. True?

They won't listen to a third generation walati pittu like me.

Lol
I've observed that Kashmiris from your side sound more or less like Punjabis. Why so?

Any peace would mean India talking on Kashmir, for now it is too scared of the name. Your jump in policy is not helping the cause. The Jammu and Kashmir assembly has an official stance that referendum should be held in Kashmir(this CM's speech, wait i'll try to find it). India doesn't even want to discuss Kashmir, forget about any referendum. So historic peace is not in picture until and unless you have a leadership in India who is willing to talk to Kashmir, which Modi is not. So i will have to disagree with you here.
Would be too stupid not to mention the assurances Nehru gave to us as people who should be given the right to choose

Did I hear you mention REFERENDUM???
Sweetie, do you have any idea, under what circumstances REFERENDUM is to be conducted???

ing pride in terrorist thanking him for supporting them, what more evidence do you seek

Wajsie, if our terrorist (read:Burhan Wani) can be your hero then the same logic can be applied on someone whom you brand a terrorist. It's a mere tit for tat.

Do you want to know what Baluchistan's really wants India to do?
http://www.dawn.com/news/1278375/zehri-slams-modi-says-no-comparison-between-kashmir-and-balochistan

Please look at the protest against India held today in different parts of Balochistan, and if you still believe otherwise

I can produce many such posts from Kashmir which are against Pakistan. But forum rules don't allow me to post it.

Yup, right you are.

When free, do "contribute" to this thread. Lol
Though I hope you're absorbed into your books.

plight of minorities is not very encouraging if the reports are to go by!

How many Indian Muslims do you think 've migrated to other countries after the so called "Hindu" govt came into power?
I live among the Christians and Muslims in India. Infact if my immediate vicinity is to be taken into consideration then Hindus are a minority here. Lol
Do I see Christians and Muslims being ill treated here? No!
I'm not painting a false picture of my country, albeit our media does. Every incident is given a communal colour by them.
These are times when I wish my country was not democratic. Tsk tsk.

 

[Arsalan]

How many Indian Muslims do you think 've migrated to other countries after the so called "Hindu" govt came into power?
I live among the Christians and Muslims in India. Infact if my immediate vicinity is to be taken into consideration then Hindus are a minority here. Lol
Do I see Christians and Muslims being ill treated here? No!
I'm not painting a false picture of my country, albeit our media does. Every incident is given a communal colour by them.
These are times when I wish my country was not democratic. Tsk tsk.

Dear the problem is we rely on the media outlets to judge and learn about each other. Now i live in Pakistan and i do not see the Christians here complaining of bad treatment or anything either still there is a story of a Christian man being beaten because of Blasphemy just like there are news reports of Muslims being beaten for consuming cow meat!!! It is these news reports by which we are judging how many were miss treated in Baluchistan of how many were killed in Gujrat! So either we give up this source of information and stop judging each other based on this info or we keep presenting these reports as a fact, whatever we choose will always be applied on both sides of the border. This is the problem that we are relying on these info. sources and i am not sure how much we should depend on them!

 

[WAJsal]

That is a misstatement, India was meddling in the affairs of East Pakistan by the early to mid 60's via its various connections with Bengali dissidents who occupied positions of power. Then in Sri Lanka, and in Burma.. until this facade of self righteousness is ditched by Indians; neither side will ever sit down to talk. Each will think their high horse is better, and in my case.. leave me uninterested in any discussion.

Excellent post and a good elaboration of the point i was making. See @Levina , we are not the only victim. Actually this reflects a sick mentality in India, call it what you want. If it was up to this mentality India would have taken over it's neighboring countries long ago.
It's this mentality that is response for killing someone like Mahatma Gandhi, and it's this sick mentality that celebrated the death of his killers too. No need to further elaborate.

Did I hear you mention REFERENDUM???
Sweetie, do you have any idea, under what circumstances REFERENDUM is to be conducted???

This is just poor point scoring, we have had this debate more than a 100 times. It's not that we can simply remove our troops and wait for India to follow-up, there has to be a mutual agreement of some sort first.
You understand my point and you know it's valid, i can elaborate on it but are already aware of the elaborated part.
India under Modi can never accept a historic peace with Pakistan(yes accept). And as i said before, it would require a talk on Kashmir which India is very much scared of doing.
Sick mentality would rather kill all Kashmirs than giving them a right to choose.
What's common about all occupying forces? they think of themselves as a godly entity, one that can never be removed. It's only a matter of time-historic fact.
(I am going to go enjoy Haleem, Mother made some killer Haleem. If only i could email you some, not kidding there's loads of it. I think we'll have Haleem for a week or so..)

The Indian side has to swallow hard, roll back the extraordinary legacy of the Indian defence of this space and its inhabitants, and step back from its existing position. It has to acknowledge its own contribution through rank bad governance to the problem (my friend B. R. Singh Nain, former Principal Secretary, and sometime Advisor to Farooq Abdullah, has written a candid middle in Times of India today; even those of us who dislike the Times Group and its cynical money-grubbing antics should read it). It has to stop fiddling with adjusting a setting here and changing a setting there, and look at fundamentals. Without throwing the pro-Indian elements, of whom there are hugely many more than a jaundiced view will admit, to the wolves, Kashmir has to be given the maximum autonomy permissible, and even some more to be teased out of the possibility of Constitutional amendment, of both constitutions in question. Open borders are more difficult to implement, although they have been proposed by many.

Good to see some sanity still prevailing. Do you think it might have to do something with the years of British rule, we have seen an imapct of this rule(on our bureaucracy and politics). This logic makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

 

[Arsalan]

Did I hear you mention REFERENDUM???
Sweetie, do you have any idea, under what circumstances REFERENDUM is to be conducted???

Well to be honest it is quite a lame excuse the Indian government and thus the public as well comes up with from time to time. Please understand this, it is not like we will just take out troops from Azad Kashmir in hope that Indian wont cross LoC into Pakistan but will honestly withdraw troops from the occupied valley to follow the lead. We all know that we do not share that level of trust on each other. In fact, i would even point out that this cannot work the other way either. Like i do not want the Indian troops to with draw first and that our forces will pull out later! That is equally stupid. Thing is, any such withdraw will have to happen under some sorts of control and with some mutual agreement. Now with the Indian stance being "we will not talk on Kashmir, killing them is much easier" sort of thing how can we expect to get to the point where we will agree on something with honesty to resolve this issue? The lack of effort to establish that trust level do indicate the seriousness in this regard. I am pointing this out in hope that you do understand that these are all excuses, we make some on our side, you make some on yours and the valley keeps burning!!

 

[Levina]

sources and i am not sure how much we should depend on them!

Arsalan,
Let me be frank here, I've a Pakistani Christian friend who did confess about certain issues in Pakistan, albeit she's proud of the country she belongs to.
As far as my country is concerned, I can say that till not so long back Hindus were a lot more secular.
It's some sorta awareness of their religion that I see in Hindus now, many still feel embarrassed to confess that in open though. Religious extremism is not something that I associate with it.
Back to the topic- Balochistan.
The intention behind Modi thanking balochis is nothing but a hint to the Pakistani establishment(s) that India would rub salt into Pak wounds if Kashmir issue is not resolved. But the place found a mere mention in Modi's speech and I don't think it should be misconstrued into anything else. The door to peace talks are still open.

Now with the Indian stance being "we will not talk on Kashmir, killing them is much easier" sort of thing how can we expect to get to the point where we will agree on something with honesty to resolve this issue? The lack of effort to establish that trust level do indicate the seriousness in this regard. I am pointing this out in hope that you do understand that these are all excuses, we make some on our side, you make some on yours and the valley keeps burning!!

Why do you forget that India wants to formalise LoC as international border, while it is Pakistan and a few rogue elements within India that reject this plan because they both want greater control over the region or so I assume?
Referendum and pulling back army from west or east Kashmir is nothing but building castles in the air.
India and Pakistan can not do without Kashmir, so let's not keep Kashmiris in dark.
There's no practical and peaceful solution to Kashmir other than this.

 

[Levina]

(I am going to go enjoy Haleem, Mother made some killer Haleem. If only i could email you some, not kidding there's loads of it. I think we'll have Haleem for a week or so..)

Thank you.
I'm a vegetarian.

 

[Arsalan]

Arsalan,
Let me be frank here, I've a Pakistani Christian friend who did confess about certain issues in Pakistan, albeit she's proud of the country she belongs to.
As far as my country is concerned, I can say that till not so long back Hindus were a lot more secular.
It's some sorta awareness of their religion that I see in Hindus now, many still feel embarrassed to confess that in open though. Religious extremism is not something that I associate with it.
Back to the topic- Balochistan.
The intention behind Modi thanking balochis is nothing but a hint to the Pakistani establishment(s) that India would rub salt into Pak wounds if Kashmir issue is not resolved. But the place found a mere mention in Modi's speech and I don't think it should be misconstrued into anything else. The door to peace talks are still open.

You know what, i have a Pakistani Christian who moved to USA some years back and all he wants these days is to somehow find some time and visit Pakistan. In fact, he will be here in December as he is marrying a Pakistani Christian girl here in Hyderabad. AND, it is he because of who we, the school friends i was not even in contact with are likely to get together for the wedding. There might be some isolated problems, there always are but then there are such cases as well that one can be proud of. What you choose to believe in and follow is a matter of preference and personal choice really.

About the attempt to run that salt ma'am, it is more out of frustration and is actually quite laughable at best. I mean, do you or Modi or ANYONE seriously think that Kashmir problem can be overlooked by the mention of Baluchistan? The Balochi people have already answered the accusers but i wont even get into that. The simple point remains that the though of trying to cover up Kashmir or the attempt to present Baluchistan as a problem of equal magnitude was quite ridiculous and have sorts of back fired as well. Please remember this, Kashmir is what is the bone of contention between two nuclear armed nations! This is a simple fact that the world knows well about. All that in name of "....if Kashmir issue is not resolved". Resolved HOW? This is the main point. What else you think Pakistan asks for? The simple demand is to let the Kashmir people decide and let us resolve. The speech cannot be taken for its seriousness in the back drop of clear cut refusal to hold any talks about Kashmir. This have been the Indian stance for some years now and i feel sorry for you, myself and most importantly the Kashmiri people who are suffering due to this stubborn approach and silly mistakes by you and me. I do how the peace door is still open, the door through which we can walk and sit together to discuss the Kashmir problem and try and find some way, anyway, to resolve it once and for all.

Why do you forget that India wants to formalise LoC as international border, while it is Pakistan and a few rogue elements within India that reject this plan because they both want greater control over the region or so I assume?
Referendum and pulling back army from west or east Kashmir is nothing but building castles in the air.
India and Pakistan can not do without Kashmir, so let's not keep Kashmiris in dark.

Oh no no, i am not forgetting those claims! All i am saying that deciding the fate of Kashmiri people without keeping them in loop is what is building castles in the air! Dont you think they have a right to self-determination? They do not have any say in how Pakistan and India decide to divide them among themselves? It sounds quite unfair to me.

There's no practical and peaceful solution to Kashmir other than this

We can ONLY discuss this IF we decide to sit and hold those talks. "Kashmir is an internal matter and we wont talk about Kashmir" is not what is going to help. Unless the concerned authorities decide to sit and talk about this all we say will remain speculation and ideas and this holds for both of us.

Thank you.
I'm a vegetarian.

You will prefer Harisa then!!
However @WAJsal i have no such problems.

 

[Zibago]

Thank you.
I'm a vegetarian.

Ye jena bhi kiya jena hay :-\\

 

[Levina]

@Bezerk
You have marked my opening post on this thread negative.
My reasons for posting this thread:
1. The title itself says that Modi's statement should not be mistaken, and that door to peace is still open.
2. I have given my opinion in the OP which again ends with peace.
3. The thread was posted in senior's cafe to avoid trolling.
4. The thread has seen many contributions from Pakistani and Indian members/TTA/mod's.

Would like to know your opinion before I proceed further.

 

[Levina]

Oh no no, i am not forgetting those claims! All i am saying that deciding the fate of Kashmiri people without keeping them in loop is what is building castles in the air! Dont you think they have a right to self-determination? They do not have any say in how Pakistan and India decide to divide them among themselves? It sounds quite unfair to me

Hi there,
Another of your brethren @Bezerk seems to not like me discussing this topic.
Anyways, my point is we still haven't come to a conclusion as to what's to be done with Kashmir.
Memebrs of this forum often quote Hyderabad and Junagarh, but not many Rajasthanis or Hyderabadis even remember accession of these regions to India. Everything is peaceful.
Now my reasons as to why referendum is not needed
1) Only 5% of Kashmiris protest against GoI.
I had tagged you in a thread to tell you the same. The region which has seen a surge in protests is the area marked in white

2) Last elections in the valley leaves no doubt as to whom the ppl in J&K prefer. BJP has been voted in along with PDP.

http://www.dawn.com/news/1152688
It's not hard to see what I'm alluding to here.

We can ONLY discuss this IF we decide to sit and hold those talks. "Kashmir is an internal matter and we wont talk about Kashmir" is not what is going to help. Unless the concerned authorities decide to sit and talk about this all we say will remain speculation and ideas and this holds for both of us.

I do not understand that what is it about Indian Kashmir that needs to be discussed. We have a state and central government in place.
If at all Kashmir is to be discussed then let's discuss west and east Kashmir both.

You will prefer Harisa then!!
However @WAJsal i have no such problems.

I do not know if it was sarcasm of sorts by @WAJsal and you.
Anyways thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.