Total indigenisation of Sukhoi Su-30MKI next year: HAL

[Screaming Skull]

@hj786.....
Do you have any information on how it is that China is able to reverse-Engineer such sophisticated tech??
Is India lacking a certain Industrial base that limits its ability to do the same?
Do you know what are the requirements?

Also, if Im not mistaken, mettalurgy, high grade steels/alloys and composites was one of the Strenghts of the Indian Defence industry......
In fact the Kanchan armor for the Arjun Tank is supposed to be quite powerful and completely indegenous.......

Thanks for sharing anyways.....all this is very interesting!!

One needs to differentiate between 'ability' and 'intent'. China has the intent and hence developed the ability to reverse engineer. On the other hand India does not have the intent to reverse engineer.

The intent part unfortunately is decided by the GoI and specifically the foreign policy. China as you know has a brazen contempt for agreements for IP rights, agreements etc. Apparently their monetary and military clout gives them the authority to stare countries in the eye. This has gotten them into lot of trouble with Russia in the past but the bottom line is that they can get over it coz of their sheer muscle power.

India on the other hand has to maintain friendly relationship with most of her reliable suppliers. Pissing, Russia or Israel is the last thing we want to do (or so we are made to believe) with well a not so great defence industrial base. But, I don't see that as a disadvantage. We have developed ways and means to circumvent this problem. We formally ask the supplier country for ToT in return for a huge contract. Remember only 18 MMRCAs will be bought off the shelf and the rest will be manufactured by India. And personally I feel that this a much better way of developing indigenous capability and maintain friendly relationship with suppliers at the same time. This furthers trust and encourages the supplier to sell more and more sensitive products to us without the fear of seeing your product being ripped off and sold off wit a new name.

 

[Moscow]

.


Man!!!!!!
Is the TVC 2D or 3D??? can any anyone shed some light on it with tech info please??

U'r help would be duly appreciated.

The TVC on MKI is 2D the 3D tvc is available on MIG-35 SU35BM
Most jet-powered aircraft have used what are known as axisymmetric nozles over the ages. These nozzles, direct the thrust along the axis of the engine, hence the name axisymmetric.
2D nozzles, not only direct the thrust along the axis of the engine, but can deflect to vector the thrust to produce a force that points the nose of the plane in a different direction.

This type of nozzle is used as thrust vectoring<TVC> capable engines. The nozzles are capable of vectoring the thrust up or down to produce an up force or down force.
Some of you who have watched the movie TOP GUN can remember the scene where Navy pilot Pete “Maverick” Mitchell manages to get the upper hand on his instructors by slowing down, pulling up the nose of his F-14 Tomcat, and watching his opponent fly right by. this was the case where you can see the active use of the thrust vectoring capability.Due to the advanced computers and flight control systems, pilots don’t have to think about choosing vectoring or executing specific steps to perform a maneuver. They simply point the airplane where they want, and the onboard systems automatically coordinate the right combination of flaps, rudder, elevator, and nozzle angle, unlike what cruise did in the movie.

The russians were one of the pioneers of thrust vectoring application which was demonstrated by Russian pilot Viktor Pugachev, who with his Sukhoi Su-27 at the 1989 Paris Air Show. The maneuver is not a perfect example of thrust vectoring.Down force will force the aircraft nose to pitch upward while up force has the opposite effect. The two nozzles can also be deflected differentially (one producing up force, the other down force) to provide roll control.the cobra move is also known as the cobra maneuver, also known as Pugachev’s cobra after the name of the pilot.

The indian flanker MKI uses the same 2D vectoring including the F22A and flanker 37 models.The major development which comes up is the use of 3D vectoring with the use of a flap on the nozzle to get multi directional or 360 degrees of trust application. one such aircraft is the MIG-35. A nozzle that deflected thrust left or right would also be considered a 2D nozzle, so long as it was not capable of deflecting up and down as well. However, a nozzle capable of deflecting both up and down as well as right and left is a 3D nozzle.

Thrust vectoring when it was first thought of was to make aircrafts for vertical takeoff or short take off or landing ability.but recent developments in its capabilities use it to perform various combat procedures, in the future the direction of thrust can be done using fluid mechanics which is under research and should provide the basis for the development of 6th generation of fighters.


here is a picture of the 3D nozzle in use in the MIG-35
features include :-
1.The only mass-produced axisymmetric omnidirectional nozzle in the world
2.Nozzle control is not restricted in any flight mode, including the afterburning mode

 

[stevesteevy]

Comparing F-22 vs Sukhoi-30MKI is just like comparing Sukhoi-30MKI vs JF-17 thunder and J10.

No I dont think so . Su 30 mki is in much better position when compared to F 22 rather with F 17 is compared to su 30 mki . In fact Su 30 mki happens to be the most advanced of all the flankers ( up until recently su 35 of Russia ). F 17 is not a patch of SU 30 MKI.

Flanker or su 27 series was designed in later 70's and earlier 80's by Russia when it realised that its then most potent fighter i.e Mig 29 was not up to the mark as an answer to America's then primary fighter aircraft F 15.

Su 27 series objective was crystal clear . Beat F 15 " Any time , Any where " .

And it did exatly that . America tired to give F 15 an edge with better avionics . Expecially going in for AESA radar .

But Russia now has its Own AESA radar and all its flanker are going to be fitted with AESA from 2010 .

Mind you only small number of F 15 of USA are Fitted with AESA radars . In fact majority of all Americas fighter aircarfts are still operation with mechanichal radars . Only F 22 and F 35 have AESA right from the word go .

Of all the feed back that is available from various quaters , when ever and where ever there was a contest between Flanker and F 15 , Flanker was always found to be in a dominating position .

Have a look at the site below .

USA Buys Russia’s Su-27 Jets From Ukraine to Find Out Why F-15 Is So Bad - Pravda.Ru


PERHAPS THE BIGGEST COMPLIMENT CAME FROM NONE OTHER THAN AMERICANS FOR THE FACT THAT IT IS FOR THE ARRIVAL OF FLANKER WHICH ULTIMATELY GAVE BIRTH TO RAPTOR .

There was a clear recognisiton by the Pentagon in earilier 90's that their is no way F 15 can be answer to flanker .

In the words of NATO general, " We certaily did'nt expect such an Fighter aircarft from Russia ".

Now comparing F 22 to Flanker is very unfair .

F 22 was developed in 90's . Raptor program cost till now is monumental by any measure .



Winslow T. Wheeler: What Does an F-22 Cost?


$64.540 Billions and still going up .

184 aircrafts are ordered till now. Now when you basic maths you get the following equation .

$64.540 Billions /184 aircrafts = $350.1 million a piece .

The cost of Flanker program in those earlier 80's is peanuts compared to $64.540 Billions of Raptor .


Now Su 30 mki cost India a little over $ 40 million a piece.

How can any body Compare a $350.1 million a piece aircarft to a $ 40 million aircarft .

It dosent stop their .

F 15 cost to maintain and operate is $607,072.92 . Cost to maintain and Operate F 22 is Quoted $3,190,454.72 .

A good 5 times more than F15 . It could'nt be worse for F22

I am sorry . It makes no sence for any body to compare F 22 to Flanker .

The correct aircraft to be pitted againest F 22 is the up- comming Russia 5'th generation Aircraft .

Flanker rival was and is F 15 and it did beat F 15 hand's down .

 

[hj786]

Flanker rival was and is F 15 and it did beat F 15 hand's down .

Only in the dreams of ignorant people such as yourself.

 

[hack]

The speaker himself says that once the Indians learn about their new jet they will beat the F-15's regularly.

Though no one can match the F22..not the flanker not so called J-XX nor a paper Pak Fa

 

[hj786]

The speaker himself says that once the Indians learn about their new jet they will beat the F-15's regularly.

They would get whooped by F-15s with the USA's latest AESA radars, engines, data-links, AIM-120, AIM-9X, Boeing JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System) and reduced radar signature.

 

[hack]

They would get whooped by F-15s with the USA's latest AESA radars, engines, data-links, AIM-120, AIM-9X, Boeing JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System) and reduced radar signature.

Probably but India does not have to fight with the latest American F15 do they? They have the best jet by far in her neighborhood and America wont sell superior systems to her enemies.

 

[luoshan]

One needs to differentiate between 'ability' and 'intent'. China has the intent and hence developed the ability to reverse engineer. On the other hand India does not have the intent to reverse engineer.

The intent part unfortunately is decided by the GoI and specifically the foreign policy. China as you know has a brazen contempt for agreements for IP rights, agreements etc. Apparently their monetary and military clout gives them the authority to stare countries in the eye. This has gotten them into lot of trouble with Russia in the past but the bottom line is that they can get over it coz of their sheer muscle power.

India on the other hand has to maintain friendly relationship with most of her reliable suppliers. Pissing, Russia or Israel is the last thing we want to do (or so we are made to believe) with well a not so great defence industrial base. But, I don't see that as a disadvantage. We have developed ways and means to circumvent this problem. We formally ask the supplier country for ToT in return for a huge contract. Remember only 18 MMRCAs will be bought off the shelf and the rest will be manufactured by India. And personally I feel that this a much better way of developing indigenous capability and maintain friendly relationship with suppliers at the same time. This furthers trust and encourages the supplier to sell more and more sensitive products to us without the fear of seeing your product being ripped off and sold off wit a new name.

AeroIndia 2009: Chinese J-11B a copy of the Su-27SK, say Russian officials news

Bangalore: Russian aerospace authorities have confirmed what has been speculated upon publicly for years that China had produced its own "fake" version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

"We are in discussions with China on this issue," said Mikhail Pogosyan, first vice president on programme coordination, Russian Aircraft Corp., during a press conference here at the AeroIndia 2009
trade show.

Pogosyan is also director general of the Sukhoi design bureau.

China and Russia contracted to build 200 Su-27SKs in 1995, with the Shenyang Aircraft Corp. as the local partner, at a cost of $2.5 billion. Under the deal the aircraft, dubbed as the J-11A, would be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. However, the contract was dissolved in 2006, after production of only 95 aircraft, once the Russians discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems.


The Chinese programme resulted in the production of six J-11B fighters for testing purposes, but ran into problems over the production of a suitable engine to power the aircraft. The J-11B remains outfitted with the Russian engine, the AL-31F.

At joint meetings held last year, both Pogosyan and the Russian defense minister Anatoly Serdyukov managed to apply sufficient pressure on Chinese officials to compel them to respect intellectual property rights.

Russian authorities have reason to fear that the Chinese would mass-produce cheaper export versions of the Su-27 for the international market. Such exports would have great consequences for the volatile Indian sub-continent where it could drastically impact military balances.

The Chinese may have been persuaded to be reasonable in this regard with Russia showing it the stick with regard to futuristic fighter programmes, such as the Su-33 carrier based version of the Su-27.

Russian officials downplayed the quality of the Chinese copy -the J-11B. "If we speak about the copy of the airplanes, I think that in this case, the original will always be better than a slightly modified copy," Pogosyan said. "The original made by the designer who developed the product is always better, and it is a better start for a new program with the original designer and developer than making a fake copy."

He also pointed out that it was difficult to deal with problems that copies threw up over their lifetime and it was only the original developer who knew best how to deal with such issues.

Security experts are not convinced that Russia will have persuaded China completely to shy away from developing the J-11B any further. Very likely, the Chinese may have agreed to play along till such time as their Su-33s have been delivered.

The Chinese Navy has begun construction of its first aircraft carrier and needs Russian technology and experience.

 

[gambit]

Flanker or su 27 series was designed in later 70's and earlier 80's by Russia when it realised that its then most potent fighter i.e Mig 29 was not up to the mark as an answer to America's then primary fighter aircraft F 15.

Su 27 series objective was crystal clear . Beat F 15 " Any time , Any where " .

And it did exatly that . America tired to give F 15 an edge with better avionics . Expecially going in for AESA radar .

But Russia now has its Own AESA radar and all its flanker are going to be fitted with AESA from 2010 .

Mind you only small number of F 15 of USA are Fitted with AESA radars . In fact majority of all Americas fighter aircarfts are still operation with mechanichal radars . Only F 22 and F 35 have AESA right from the word go .

Of all the feed back that is available from various quaters , when ever and where ever there was a contest between Flanker and F 15 , Flanker was always found to be in a dominating position .

Have a look at the site below .

USA Buys Russia’s Su-27 Jets From Ukraine to Find Out Why F-15 Is So Bad - Pravda.Ru

That ridiculous article have been debunked elsewhere on this forum. Please look it up.

PERHAPS THE BIGGEST COMPLIMENT CAME FROM NONE OTHER THAN AMERICANS FOR THE FACT THAT IT IS FOR THE ARRIVAL OF FLANKER WHICH ULTIMATELY GAVE BIRTH TO RAPTOR .

As someone who has some relevant experience, in the military and later in civilian life, in avionics, said claim is utter BS. Based upon the experience with the F-117, the body shaping for the B-2, F-22 and F-35 does not need compulsion from any Russian junks.

 

[hj786]

Probably but India does not have to fight with the latest American F15 do they?

Nope, but that doesn't matter, does it?

They have the best jet by far in her neighborhood and America wont sell superior systems to her enemies.

Depends on your definition of "by far". Her enemies don't need superior systems from America, they can get systems that are good enough from plenty of other sources.

 

[sensenreason]

One needs to differentiate between 'ability' and 'intent'. China has the intent and hence developed the ability to reverse engineer. On the other hand India does not have the intent to reverse engineer.

The intent part unfortunately is decided by the GoI and specifically the foreign policy. China as you know has a brazen contempt for agreements for IP rights, agreements etc. Apparently their monetary and military clout gives them the authority to stare countries in the eye. This has gotten them into lot of trouble with Russia in the past but the bottom line is that they can get over it coz of their sheer muscle power.

India on the other hand has to maintain friendly relationship with most of her reliable suppliers. Pissing, Russia or Israel is the last thing we want to do (or so we are made to believe) with well a not so great defence industrial base. But, I don't see that as a disadvantage. We have developed ways and means to circumvent this problem. We formally ask the supplier country for ToT in return for a huge contract. Remember only 18 MMRCAs will be bought off the shelf and the rest will be manufactured by India. And personally I feel that this a much better way of developing indigenous capability and maintain friendly relationship with suppliers at the same time. This furthers trust and encourages the supplier to sell more and more sensitive products to us without the fear of seeing your product being ripped off and sold off wit a new name.

This might not make me popular with fellow Indians but lets face the truth....Reverse engineering is a type of engineering only directionally different and we arent good at it by miles...

Having worked with Chinese software guys and that isnt their strength..and having seen 'how' the reverse engineering was accomplished. It just requires a different level of committment and discipline; which sadly I didnt see when comparing Avg Indian s/w guys to avg Chinese one's. If the race was between our good guys vs their good guys...our guys would do better. But avg to avg...we arent there yet and wont be for some time to come...

So it doesnt take rocket science to figure out..what might be true in a s/w project would be true in other areas...

At an intellectual level..ie psychological strengths...this might not be the best articulation but we -Indians are better at disintegration and they are good in integration.....in my opinion reverse engineering requires integration..

My two cents in all honesty

 

[maverick2009]

Lets hope IAF will not fight USA with its F22 & JSF & F18SH. huge nerwork of Awacs satalites etc.

Anybody else is game on for IAF has i see it including PLAAF

SU30MKI is the F22 of Asia until JSF arive in Japan 2015

 

[hack]

Nope, but that doesn't matter, does it?



Depends on your definition of "by far". Her enemies don't need superior systems from America, they can get systems that are good enough from plenty of other sources.

Sorry there is nothing in the world as good as the American jets.We have the greatest technology out there.There is nothing anyone can offer anyone that is as good as the American stuff.

 

[Moorkh]

bandit you are wrong. the black exclamation mark in a yellow triangle signifies "warning"

 

[gambit]

Bro,if the russies would have had 800+ billion$ budgets like urs,then even they could have devoloped techs that may have no match.I not denying the US supremacy that exists today,u may come up with techs in ur a/c where the sys. r controlled by thoughts like the mig 31 of the movie firefox,but for that u require $$.which u have now,in future the tide may change.Dont underestimate oth...regards...

What make you believe the Soviets did not have that kind of money? Or a better question -- what make you believe the Soviets CANNOT divert resources, as all economies do, towards a certain goal?

Take a look at this...

Secret Cities

Collectively, these secret cities are known as zakrytye administrativno-territorial’nye obrazovaniia (ZATO), many of which were built by slave labor from the Soviet GULAG. During the cold war many of Russia's towns and cities, including some of its largest, were 'closed cities'. Anyone with a foreign passport was forbidden to enter, and many were even out of bounds to Russian citizens. These closed cities provided the technical foundation for Soviet military technology including chemical, biological and nuclear weapons research and manufacturing, enrichment of plutonium, space research, and military intelligence work. This meant that large numbers of highly qualified scientists and researchers were concentrated in these geographical areas, developing new technologies but isolated from the global research community. With Glasnost and the fall of the Soviet Union, all of the major cities were opened for collaboration in civil research and the slow process of breaking down the barriers of secrecy began.

You expect everyone to believe that the Soviets can divert resources, including slave labor, to build these secret cities for military purposes but was too impoverished to build a 'stealth' aircraft? Please stop making excuses for them.