Total indigenisation of Sukhoi Su-30MKI next year: HAL

[glomex]

Russian order for HAL for supply of Su-30MK components

Zhukovsky, Moscow Region: India's premiere state-owned aerospace and defence establishment, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), has announced that it will supply a larger number of components to Russia for its Sukhoi-30 series of multi-role combat jets intended for export to third countries. This is a clear indication of the increasing sophistication of HAL's manufacturing and delivery systems, for the Su-30MK is one of the most sophisticated combat flying platforms in operation with any air force in the world today.

The new agreement would see the Asian aerospace giant supplying airframe components for the Su-30MK multi-role jets to Russia, a top ranking HAL official said.

"We are already supplying navigation and communication equipment for installation on the Su-30MK series of fighters exported by Russia to other countries," V Balakrishnan, GM, HAL's Nasik based Aircraft Manufacturing Division, said on sidelines of the International Aerospace Show MAKS-2009.

According to HAL officials, India and Russia will very likely sign an inter-governmental agreement on the supply of these components by year-end. Russia has already supplied Su-30MK series fighters to Malaysia, Indonesia and Vietnam and has export orders from Algeria and Venezuela on hand.

HAL is currently involved in local production of the Su-30MKI, which is widely credited as being the most advanced version of the Su-30 series sold around the world, including China's MKK version.


domain-b.com : MAKS-2009: Russian order for HAL for supply of Su-30MK components

 

[forcetrip]

Yes, i agree with my Indian fellows.SU30MKI beats F22.The only thing F22 has is Sealth otherwise MKI would rip the F22 out of the sky.The PESA radar as mentioned by another indian is more powerful then the AESA APG Radar used on F22.PS: Can i have the stuff you guys are smoking?

hahah ..... You had me for a second ..

 

[proud_indian]

Yes, i agree with my Indian fellows.SU30MKI beats F22.The only thing F22 has is Sealth otherwise MKI would rip the F22 out of the sky.The PESA radar as mentioned by another indian is more powerful then the AESA APG Radar used on F22.PS: Can i have the stuff you guys are smoking?

what r u talking about?
Who said mki better than f-22 besides stealth?
Just quote that. U just want to degrade the quality of discussion noting else.

 

[Brahm0s]

Comparing F-22 vs Sukhoi-30MKI is just like comparing Sukhoi-30MKI vs JF-17 thunder and J10.

 

[stevesteevy]

Well I hope HAL by manufacturing AL 31 fp for su 30 mki can now transfer technologies like single crystal turbine blades to GTRE .

 

[s90]

Im guessing its just 100% local production under license.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

Well I hope HAL by manufacturing AL 31 fp for su 30 mki can now transfer technologies like single crystal turbine blades to GTRE .

i dont think Russians will agree for AL-31FP tech transfer Russians will like to have some hold of this production after all 230 A/Cs are not a joke they wont like Indians to get a full control over production of these A/Cs, i might be wrong, just my personal opinion

 

[hj786]

Friend first question is J-10 comparable to sukhoi-30MKI? in everything from hardware to software (sukhoi-30MKI designed by russia while internal software is by israel). Now question is, is china better than russia in hardware? And is china better than israel in software? If yes that J-10 Jindabaad but trust me china no where near russian hardware and israel software. J-10 cant match sukhoi-30MKI. 240 sukhoi-30MKI is alot my friend. To counter it pakistan would be needing 500 J-10s. Cheers.

Comparing F-22 vs Sukhoi-30MKI is just like comparing Sukhoi-30MKI vs JF-17 thunder and J10.

Got any proof for that BS? Didn't think so.

Poor attempt at a flame bait....if you want to try to insult us, dont start by displaying your stupidity.....Lesson 1 for you!!

Lesson 2: Kaveri is an indegenous effort at building an engine for LCA etc....comparable to Pakistan producing Al-Khalid lets say.
India producing Su-30 engine under license is equivalent to Pakistan producing the JF-17 in Pakistan under license from China......I hope I spelt the difference.

I agree with the first part of your post, but "Lesson 2" is incorrect. JF-17 is a joint project, not merely a license production. Hundreds of Pakistani engineers were in China during the design phase and several Pakistani test pilots (two were flying test sorties until circa mid-2004 when another two were sent, they had just graduated from the Empire Test Pilots' School in the UK). I understand why many Indians find it difficult to believe this since, apparently, all Pakistan can do is paint Chinese products.

A question from PAF experts: India is going to produce nearly 250 SU-30 and through some YouTube Videos, I have learned it is one of the best 4.5 Gen Air-Crafts in the world. What capacity do we have to counter them? 36 J-10s is not a response I guess?

It is indeed one of the best 4.5 generation fighters in the world, there can be no doubt about this. But PAF has many options to counter them. The most expensive would be buying European fighters in numbers and PAF was originally planning to do this to fill their "high-tech fighter" requirement. They were seriously considering the JAS-39 Gripen and a special PAF-specific Mirage 2000 variant, designated the Mirage 2000 'Scorpion' according to one source I've read. But they seem to have passed these up for a mixed fleet of new F-16 and J-10 when F-16 became available after 9/11. They later reduced their F-16 order from around 75 to 18-36; the reason stated being that their rescue efforts in the 2005 earthquake depleted their funding, but all PAF followers I have come across believe they wanted to use the funds for more J-10.

As a result, PAF is to be comprised of several hundred JF-17, J-10 and F-16. Each will play an important role and contrary to what many posters here will tell you, the JF-17 is NOT a non-player when put up against the Su-30MKI. However in its current configuration it is indeed at significant disadvantage in certain areas, particularly its onboard radar, and requires help from force multipliers such as AWACS aircraft to compete. Future upgraded models may well fix this issue. We don't know much about PAF's J-10 configuration, called FC-20. There is a newspaper report quoting the ex-CAS Tanvir Mehmood Ahmad as saying that it will incorporate thrust vector control (TVC). It's aerodynamic layout is certainly on par with the latest European fighters, however, which gives it advantages in supersonic agility. Many believe it to be very similar to, if not the same as, the J-10B; pictures of which have been shown to have a slanted radar radome, indicating a PESA or AESA radar which would put it in the league of the most advanced 4.5 generation fighters in the world.

You talked about only 36 J-10 being ordered; a common misconception. This is just the initial order. PAF's requirement is 150 high-tech fighters and they are to receive at least 64 upgraded and new F-16, if you do the maths that leaves a gap of around 80 fighters which will obviously be filled with more J-10. If F-16 or J-10 don't work out, Mirage 2000 is being kept as a back-up option according to respected sources.

 

[Peshwa]

This might be because Im not as well versed with Jet engine technology, but can someone help me understand, if India is licence producing the engine for the Su-30 from scratch, why is it so hard for us to intergrate the know how into our own Kaveri engine?

I mean it feels like we have TOT from Russia, with or without their knowledge couldnt we just reverse engineer or at least utilize elements that we lack in into our engine?

Just to be clear....I am completely against plagiarism and in no way supporting that India should do this......I'd rather India fail a million times making something than copy or take the easy way out....Just like myself....I like Indian products to be 100% Indian from their DNA!!! But I am curious!!

 

[hj786]

This might be because Im not as well versed with Jet engine technology, but can someone help me understand, if India is licence producing the engine for the Su-30 from scratch, why is it so hard for us to intergrate the know how into our own Kaveri engine?

I mean it feels like we have TOT from Russia, with or without their knowledge couldnt we just reverse engineer or at least utilize elements that we lack in into our engine?

Just to be clear....I am completely against plagiarism and in no way supporting that India should do this......I'd rather India fail a million times making something than copy or take the easy way out....Just like myself....I like Indian products to be 100% Indian from their DNA!!! But I am curious!!

You can't reverse-engineer metallurgy.

 

[Peshwa]

You can't reverse-engineer metallurgy.

Can you expand on this?

 

[arihant]

This might be because Im not as well versed with Jet engine technology, but can someone help me understand, if India is licence producing the engine for the Su-30 from scratch, why is it so hard for us to intergrate the know how into our own Kaveri engine?

I mean it feels like we have TOT from Russia, with or without their knowledge couldnt we just reverse engineer or at least utilize elements that we lack in into our engine?

Just to be clear....I am completely against plagiarism and in no way supporting that India should do this......I'd rather India fail a million times making something than copy or take the easy way out....Just like myself....I like Indian products to be 100% Indian from their DNA!!! But I am curious!!

We are not Chinese. I mean we don't have expertise in Reverse Engineering. From my view, Engines are already provided by Russia and only assembling is done in licensing. Also, Software which need to install to operate whole Engine and Air Craft itself are installed by Russian Company itself leaving very little room for understanding so big thing.

 

[hj786]

Can you expand on this?

Not really, I don't really know anything about it. From what I understand, you can find out which atoms are in a metal alloy but that doesn't mean you can reverse-engineer it. When advanced metal alloys such as those used in turbofan engines are created, they are put through various "treatments" to make them more resistant to high temperatures. You can't reverse-engineer these treatments. Sure, you can test an alloy, find out all its properties (how soft it gets at high temperatures is important in turbofan engines), but that doesn't help you reverse engineer it.

We are not Chinese. I mean we don't have expertise in Reverse Engineering. From my view, Engines are already provided by Russia and only assembling is done in licensing. Also, Software which need to install to operate whole Engine and Air Craft itself are installed by Russian Company itself leaving very little room for understanding so big thing.

The Chinese spent decades trying to develop a modern high performance turbofan engine for jet fighters. They've been trying since the 60s, but they failed until the early 2000s. They had to develop decades of experience before they could make a modern turbofan, experience which you guys don't have - so yes, you guys are not the Chinese. There is a reason why only a few countries can make modern high performance turbofans: USA, UK, Russia and France.

 

[Peshwa]

@hj786.....
Do you have any information on how it is that China is able to reverse-Engineer such sophisticated tech??
Is India lacking a certain Industrial base that limits its ability to do the same?
Do you know what are the requirements?

Also, if Im not mistaken, mettalurgy, high grade steels/alloys and composites was one of the Strenghts of the Indian Defence industry......
In fact the Kanchan armor for the Arjun Tank is supposed to be quite powerful and completely indegenous.......

Thanks for sharing anyways.....all this is very interesting!!

 

[Screaming Skull]

Complete ToT is an absolute myth!

Irrespective of what one may tell you, no country in its wildest dreams will transfer the most sensitive techs, developed after years of R&D to any other country. What HAL means by 100% ToT is 100% of whatever both India and Russia agreed to in the original ToT agreement, hopefully more if some smartass babu used the MMRCA deal to extract more than what was agreed upon. I would assume that Irkut may have transferred about 70-80% of the tech of the MKI right from scratch including metallurgy. I don’t know what was included in the ToT agreement, but I can assure you that Russia is no way going to give us techs for single crystal blade or antenna for the PESA amongst many other such absolutely critical techs.

Nevertheless, even 70-80% tech is huuuuge. Lot of the stuff learnt will go into indigenous efforts no doubt. All the R&D agencies like GTRE (Kaveri), ADA (LCA), ADE (FCS & FBW for LCA), LRDE (MMR for LCA) etc. will get something. Now, it all depends on how quickly these agencies absorb the entire tech gotten from MKI and innovate and implement in the indigenous products. This is a golden opportunity and I hope they don’t squander it.

PS: I believe this will have a lot of bearing on the MMRCA contest. If I was in the decision maker’s seat, I would use the amount of ToT given by Russia for the MKI as a bench mark. Only those countries willing to give us more than what Russia gave for MKI, must be considered seriously, irrespective of how good their product might be.