Timeline Gujarat 2002

[Bang Galore]

“You know very well, I had been chief minister only for three and a half months. When this happened, I had no experience of administration. I had not even been an MLA till then. Therefore, I did not have full grip over the administration.

If this is said more often, it may better for Mr.Modi. Far better than all the other excuses trotted out.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Personal accounts are famously inaccurate. Ask five witnesses at a road accident to describe it after 1 hour and your nick will change to jawdrops

I'm not even going into the personal accounts of some victims who have said on camera that they were asked to say what they did. The world famous case of foetus killing story - later totally refuted by the doctor who performed the autopsy is one more example.

Those victims, you presumably are referring to one unfortunate soul, Zaherra Bi, who changed her testimony several times, about whom there are very clear indications that she caved in to a combination of threats and bribes?

Would you like to put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim woman who has been through vicious riots, has lost most of her family, and now is being pulled in all directions, by independent NGOs asking her to tell the truth, and by friends of rhe perpetrators threatening her, offering her vast sums of money, and asking her to forget what happened, since nothing will be done to punish the wrong-doers anyway?

It is not an easy position to be in.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Gujarat 2002 riots have become an industry which various people want to eternally milk.

I see it as the unrelenting effort by morally outraged people to bring mass murderers to book. without their efforts, the official efforts would have run out of steam long ago. It is sad that you call it 'an industry', instead of saluting the few individuals conducting this one-sided struggle.

The fact that there has not been a single riot after 2002 (when it used to be an annual occurrence before) seems to escape everyone.

You do realise that a murder is not justified by the fact that there are no subsequent murders?

Also the fact that some of the riots were fiercer, had larger tolls and were controlled after much longer periods.

Is that seriously going to be the policy of the Indian state? If we cannot control a crime, or criminals, we allow them their head, so that the victims shut up once and for all?

Pakistanis do it for their own reasons (to feed their need to validate the TNT). Also to probably get a distraction from what is happening within NOW.

Isn't it strange that you should be saying this, when I have been shouting from the rooftops that Pakistanis are a bunch of cold-blooded bastards for not coming to the aid of those of us fighting the Modi-gang? I wish that the Pakistanis would join us in refuting the specious arguments put up, but they don't. This present is an exception.

Indians need to move on. the law is taking its course and guilty are being punished.

Unlike our neighbors where the judges need to hide their faces from the terrorists.

Very true. How I wish that we did not have to hide our faces from the world.

These are my own views, and I don't expect you to subscribe to them.

lol predicted that FYI Maya Kodnani was not part of Gujarat Government during the time of riots

She was very much part of the RSS and of the Sangh Parivar. The Gujarat Government was suborned by the Parivar to abstain from action against the rioters.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Those victims, you presumably are referring to one unfortunate soul, Zaherra Bi, who changed her testimony several times, about whom there are very clear indications that she caved in to a combination of threats and bribes?

Would you like to put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim woman who has been through vicious riots, has lost most of her family, and now is being pulled in all directions, by independent NGOs asking her to tell the truth, and by friends of rhe perpetrators threatening her, offering her vast sums of money, and asking her to forget what happened, since nothing will be done to punish the wrong-doers anyway?

It is not an easy position to be in.

Its not an easy position at all. A victim of violence, poor and indeed asked by people who are sheltering and supporting you to read out doctored evidence. Hence I said, such evidence is not trustworthy.

The congress government needs to get solid evidence and hang modi. That will resolve the matter.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Face Palm ..Same Modi Government is seeking Death Penalty for that Minister ..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/central-south-asia/246436-gujarat-government-seek-death-penalty-maya-kodnani-babu-bajrangi.html

And have you read the press reaction to this?

 

[Joe Shearer]

She used her priviledged position as elected representative - YES. She did not use her priviledged position as a state government office bearer - BECAUSE she was not one. She did not have administrative powers.

She did not have administrative powers. Babu Bajrangi did not have administrative powers. They were the mob leaders and the killers. They did not need administrative powers; those who had them were exercising those powers to hold off the police, to tell them before the riots that the Hindus would react to the Godhra killings and that they should be allowed to react. The people with administrative powers did not shoot anybody, knife anybody, or burn anybody. They just refused to take calls while the murdering was going on.

In law, the murderer and the accessory to the murder are both guilty, but to different breaches of the law in relation to the same crime and to different punishments.

I would believe you when I stop reading daily how thankful to god and jinnah pakistani are even though more muslims have been killed in east _ west pakistan put together than in India. Yes, the need to keep justifying TNT is very real and manifests daily on the forum.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its not an easy position at all. A victim of violence, poor and indeed asked by people who are sheltering and supporting you to read out doctored evidence. Hence I said, such evidence is not trustworthy.

The congress government needs to get solid evidence and hang modi. That will resolve the matter.

Doctored evidence?

She was helped to put her experiences in legible, rather than in hysterical order. Is that doctoring evidence? And wasn't that the object of the bribery that the court referred to, when dismissing her testimony?

And when did anyone say that Modi was responsible for murder? He was responsible for planning murderous riots, for keeping the police away from suppression of those riots, and for suppressing evidence after the riots. Those are not death penalty offences.

 

[indushek]

I don't think any body can change the truth known to those who suffered and made others suffer?? I am talking of conscience here.

It might look like a lame argument to many but, in a country which has seen so many riots over the years where people can doubt your character over Religion Caste race ethnicity and where the Governments resolve is to bring the perpetrators of crimes of whatever sort is only till the effort doesn't affect themselves one can never get to the ultimate truth.

Was the Gujarat riot event the worst it is along with many, was there some state complicity it does seem to be at some places so, could Modi have done better hell yeah!!!

Funniest thing is that i came to know about 1984 sikh riots only after i came to know of Gujarat riots.

I don't care if people call me a BJP or RSS guy, why the stoic silence of the media over this ghastly episode and so much concentration on the latest one. At the end of the day both the parties are mirror images of each other and just that the demand of one increases and decreases time to time.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Doctored evidence?

She was helped to put her experiences in legible, rather than in hysterical order. Is that doctoring evidence? And wasn't that the object of the bribery that the court referred to, when dismissing her testimony?

And when did anyone say that Modi was responsible for murder? He was responsible for planning murderous riots, for keeping the police away from suppression of those riots, and for suppressing evidence after the riots. Those are not death penalty offences.

I did not give him a clean chit too.

Whatever Modi is guilty of, he should be punished. I fully agree with you.

 

[jbond197]

She did not have administrative powers. Babu Bajrangi did not have administrative powers. They were the mob leaders and the killers. They did not need administrative powers; those who had them were exercising those powers to hold off the police, to tell them before the riots that the Hindus would react to the Godhra killings and that they should be allowed to react. The people with administrative powers did not shoot anybody, knife anybody, or burn anybody. They just refused to take calls while the murdering was going on.

In law, the murderer and the accessory to the murder are both guilty, but to different breaches of the law in relation to the same crime and to different punishments.

Well, this is one sided view many hold but where are the proofs to support it!! I am sure if it was so easy to prove as making a claim, Congress would have used CBI and all the intelligence agencies to trap Modi till now.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't think any body can change the truth known to those who suffered and made others suffer?? I am talking of conscience here.

It might look like a lame argument to many but, in a country which has seen so many riots over the years where people can doubt your character over Religion Caste race ethnicity and where the Governments resolve is to bring the perpetrators of crimes of whatever sort is only till the effort doesn't affect themselves one can never get to the ultimate truth.

Was the Gujarat riot event the worst it is along with many, was there some state complicity it does seem to be at some places so, could Modi have done better hell yeah!!!

Funniest thing is that i came to know about 1984 sikh riots only after i came to know of Gujarat riots.

I don't care if people call me a BJP or RSS guy, why the stoic silence of the media over this ghastly episode and so much concentration on the latest one. At the end of the day both the parties are mirror images of each other and just that the demand of one increases and decreases time to time.

I really don't know. The Sikh riots were a thousand times worse. What happened was a permanent black mark on our country. It is really frustrating that the perpetrators, whom everybody knows, Tytler, H. K. L Bhagat, and the bastard who was Sanjay Gandhi's motor mechanic pal, were not punished, and looks like being about to get away with it all.

Maybe some of us are so hell bent on punishing the indirectly guilty of the Gujarat riots because of their burning anger about the Sikh riots. It means that being unable to do anything about those, we tend to react with all the pent-up fury about this one.

 

[notsuperstitious]

She did not have administrative powers. Babu Bajrangi did not have administrative powers. They were the mob leaders and the killers. They did not need administrative powers; those who had them were exercising those powers to hold off the police, to tell them before the riots that the Hindus would react to the Godhra killings and that they should be allowed to react. The people with administrative powers did not shoot anybody, knife anybody, or burn anybody. They just refused to take calls while the murdering was going on.

In law, the murderer and the accessory to the murder are both guilty, but to different breaches of the law in relation to the same crime and to different punishments.

BTW have they found the call records?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I did not give him a clean chit too.

Whatever Modi is guilty of, he should be punished. I fully agree with you.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the nature of his crime. Even about whether or not it was a crime. He helped criminals, not by committing the crime together with them, but by allowing them to get away with it, by not preventing them. These are not hanging offences. But his being brought to book, even for a one week sentence, is what will suffice for us, not a hanging.

Well, this is one sided view many hold but where are the proofs to support it!! I am sure if it was so easy to prove as making a claim, Congress would have used CBI and all the intelligence agencies to trap Modi till now.

Are you joking? Please do your homework and find out the conditions under which the CBI can be used. And also the restrictions on using the intelligence agencies for these purposes.

This is a bizarre statement, and a bizarre belief to hold.

 

[jbond197]

I really don't know. The Sikh riots were a thousand times worse. What happened was a permanent black mark on our country. It is really frustrating that the perpetrators, whom everybody knows, Tytler, H. K. L Bhagat, and the bastard who was Sanjay Gandhi's motor mechanic pal, were not punished, and looks like being about to get away with it all.

Maybe some of us are so hell bent on punishing the indirectly guilty of the Gujarat riots because of their burning anger about the Sikh riots. It means that being unable to do anything about those, we tend to react with all the pent-up fury about this one.

Then Sir, why is it the case the "1984 riots" are not spoken about with the same passion/zeal as "2002 riots"!! I am not suggesting use of one riot as a counter to other argument but the point is - supporters of secularism/justice would have been better served if they had given/asked/enforced the same justice long back. Why the bias?

I also understand your anger, but how will the victims of 1984 riots be served justice by punishing 2002 rioters? Why not push for actions against Tytler, Sajjan Kumar etc?

Are you joking? Please do your homework and find out the conditions under which the CBI can be used. And also the restrictions on using the intelligence agencies for these purposes.

This is a bizarre statement, and a bizarre belief to hold.

Joe, between you and me both knows how CBI functions in India and how it is used by the power in center for political gains!! so Sir, you can not simply laugh it off as a Joke!!

But anyways, that was not my point. My point was - why is it that no one could prove the claims you made in the previous post of yours? Also, it is not proven then why people make use of such claims in their arguments?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Then Sir, why is it the case the "1984 riots" are not spoken about with the same passion/zeal as "2002 riots"!! I am not suggesting use of one riot as a counter to other argument but the point is - supporters of secularism/justice would have been better served if they had given/asked/enforced the same justice long back. Why the bias?

Speak for yourself.

On each and every occasion, at each and every opportunity, I have raised my voice for justice to be done to the victims of the Sikh riots, and I have done so for years now. The fact is that a strong and dedicated team exists pursuing the Gujarat matter, and there is no such team pursuing justice for the 1984 killings.

To me, this is a reflection of the growth of civil society between 1984 and 2002. We have been evolving as a nation, otherwise, what the central government used to do in the 50s and the 60s would make your hair stand on end.

Don't ever put me in the camp of those lousy Congress camp-followers who smear Modi but close ranks in defence of their own.

Joe, between you and me both knows how CBI functions in India and how it is used by the power in center for political gains!! so Sir, you can not simply laugh it off as a Joke!!

I didn't laugh it off as a joke. That was a serious comment. Please find out what is required for the CBI to be brought into an investigation.

You haven't done your homework, and that is really irritating.

But anyways, that was not my point. My point was - why is it that no one could prove the claims you made in the previous post of yours? Also, it is not proven then why people make use of such claims in their arguments?

Do you seriously want to know? And are you saying that you don't know? Please answer that in explicit terms.