Time to abandon Ummah / brotherhood for greater good of the nation?

[somebozo]

Just wondering a thought..what has so called Islamic brotherhood / ummah really given us??

1. Terrorism, Talibans and Osama Bin Laden?
   
2. Turned us into a proxy battle ground of Shia vs Sunni?? Settling scores on a 1400 years old conflict?
   
3. Turning us into lap dog defenders of corrupt monarchies?? Not any different than IRGC in Syria??
   
4. Today we are trying to desperately re-write our history and erasing our own heritage to love the religion more than the prophets?
   
5. Seriously much of the terrorist and sectarian ailments of our societ can be traced back to pan-islamism and ummah obsessions..
   
6. Muslims countries which stayed away from brotherhood and ummah obsession have done remarkably well...point in case Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, etc!
   
7. Today none of these "brothers" are to be found to even condemn the severe security and stability crisis we are under. Not a word has been uttered against drone strikes. Not even a semblance of responsibility towards OBL...Pakistan has been abandoned by the very same Ummah it choose to defend vehemently..
   
8. its like waking up to reality...the so called Ataturk moment when he realized the very same Muslims were backstabbing them now...and he must have thought to hell with brotherhood and lets built the nation to stand on its own feet...I think what Pakistan needs today is a visionary like Ataturk!

 

[Safriz]

You abandon something which is there....
You cant abandon something which has been lost 800 years ago...

 

[somebozo]

You abandon something which is there....
You cant abandon something which has been lost 800 years ago...

But our leaders particularly the military thinks they are center stage of this ummah!

What holds for example Bangladesh today as a rapidly developing country is not islamization but their culture of tolerance. Islamization on other hand has produced Afghanistan & Pakistan.

 

[third eye]

While the concept / idea of Ummah is laudable and unquestionably worth following to a Non Muslim (it seems out of place and something fraught with contradictions .

I agree with post #1 that it has been used to exploit those who followed it. More so in the case of Pak. It is a one way street wherein those 'lower in the chain' stuck to it ( more mentally than physically) while those higher in the pecking order selectively follow that too only when convenient. Here, I am also refering to the dealings with oil rich nations.

Was there /are there any feeling of brotherhood when saddam walked into kuwait or during the Iran - Iraq war or in Bahrain , Sudan or countless similar instances ? I do not see it.

Does the suicide bomber suffer pangs of guilt while killing his muslim brothers & sisters ? Obviously No.

Why then ..?

Muslim history in the Indian sub continent has been one of suspicion - fathers loved their sons but sent them to govern far away provinces for fear of them usurping the throne. Brothers feared each other and slayed their sibling or worse blinded them at the first opportunity.

Where was the ' brotherhood " ?

I feel the logic behind Ummah may have been to help a brethern in need - which is the right thing to do.

It is now being used as a tool to gain leverage where convenient .

 

[The SC]

Just wondering a thought..what has so called Islamic brotherhood / ummah really given us??

1. Terrorism, Talibans and Osama Bin Laden?
   
2. Turned us into a proxy battle ground of Shia vs Sunni?? Settling scores on a 1400 years old conflict?
   
3. Turning us into lap dog defenders of corrupt monarchies?? Not any different than IRGC in Syria??
   
4. Today we are trying to desperately re-write our history and erasing our own heritage to love the religion more than the prophets?
   
5. Seriously much of the terrorist and sectarian ailments of our societ can be traced back to pan-islamism and ummah obsessions..
   
6. Muslims countries which stayed away from brotherhood and ummah obsession have done remarkably well...point in case Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, etc!
   
7. Today none of these "brothers" are to be found to even condemn the severe security and stability crisis we are under. Not a word has been uttered against drone strikes. Not even a semblance of responsibility towards OBL...Pakistan has been abandoned by the very same Ummah it choose to defend vehemently..
   
8. its like waking up to reality...the so called Ataturk moment when he realized the very same Muslims were backstabbing them now...and he must have thought to hell with brotherhood and lets built the nation to stand on its own feet...I think what Pakistan needs today is a visionary like Ataturk!

Speak for yourself.
The Umma doesn't need ignorant people.
Afghanistan pakistan and bin laden were fighting communism in the name of "democracy", which they are fighting now.
Have you heard of thou al quarnain?
Nothing beats Islam in purity and good will. Malice is easy, honesty is not.

 

[King Solomon]

There is no such thing called unity based on Islamism. This concept is pan-Islamism which is completely alien to the concept introduced in the Koran. However, those who are influenced by Mullah extremism will always call for caliphate and pan islamist unity, when actually God says such an unity is impractical and cannot exist.

God celebrates and revers difference between our cultures, language and tradition:

"Among His signs are the creations of the heavens and the Earth, and the differences in your languages and colours. In that are signs for all people". (Qur'an 30:22)

Differences and divisions across culture is something respected and acknowledged by God:

And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ. Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. 11:118-119

Koran does not suggest that a country should have caliphate/nation state etc. but just gives some protocols to be followed:

1. Decide affairs after mutual consultation (democracy) (42:38, 3:159)

2. Judicial system based on justice (5:8, 60:8)

3. Positions held by qualified people (4:58)

4. Authority rested on believers (4:59)

5. Settle disputes between believers without fight (49:10)

^ Most of the above principles are reflected in the democratic legislative model in the western world.

 

[somebozo]

Pan-Islamism emerged during the cold war as a third doctrine propagating that some how Muslims could unite on basis of faith and form an independent power block which would be non-aligned to any powers ie: soviet and western.

However, Pan-Islamism soon turned into a dict fight of power struggle among the muslim world and gave rise to even worst commie and bathist leaders such as Ghaddafi and Saddam.

 

[King Solomon]

Pan-Islamism emerged during the cold war as a third doctrine propagating that some how Muslims could unite on basis of faith and form an independent power block which would be non-aligned to any powers ie: soviet and western.

However, Pan-Islamism soon turned into a dict fight of power struggle among the muslim world and gave rise to even worst commie and bathist leaders such as Ghaddafi and Saddam.

Forming an economic bloc like EU is okay. the EU model is completely compliant to the protocols introduced in the Koran. Cultural and regional differences are respected but an economic union based on mutual interests is formed.

 

[Wright]

"It is the fool who always rushes to take sides. Do not commit to any side or cause but yourself"

- Robert Greene

 

[Skallagrim]

Ummah/Islamic brotherhood is a state of mind, online discussion has nothing to do with it. Also there is no single country on earth based on Islami nationhood. So threads like this and this serve no purpose except the thread starter's weird self-satisfaction.

 

[The SC]

Pan-Islamism emerged during the cold war as a third doctrine propagating that some how Muslims could unite on basis of faith and form an independent power block which would be non-aligned to any powers ie: soviet and western.

However, Pan-Islamism soon turned into a dict fight of power struggle among the muslim world and gave rise to even worst commie and bathist leaders such as Ghaddafi and Saddam.

Here is the key word "the cold war", at that time Most Islamic nations were split between the two blocs, today it is a very different story and the aim is the same ; to form an independent bloc of their own interacting but not dependent on others.
A bloc of almost 2 billion people will become an economic power house.

 

[The SC]

Forming an economic bloc like EU is okay. the EU model is completely compliant to the protocols introduced in the Koran. Cultural and regional differences are respected but an economic union based on mutual interests is formed.

Mr or Mrs S-19, you forgot that all the European Union members are Christians , so no one is surprised that they do not want a Muslim union, it is just against there Christian interests.
And the same goes for the Hindus.

 

[King Solomon]

Mr or Mrs S-19, you forgot that all the European Union members are Christians , so no one is surprised that they do not want a Muslim union, it is just against there Christian interests.
And the same goes for the Hindus.

And the problem here is you are too much engrossed in religion to see through anything.

 

[kumarkumar1867]

Just wondering a thought..what has so called Islamic brotherhood / ummah really given us??

1. Terrorism, Talibans and Osama Bin Laden?
   
2. Turned us into a proxy battle ground of Shia vs Sunni?? Settling scores on a 1400 years old conflict?
   
3. Turning us into lap dog defenders of corrupt monarchies?? Not any different than IRGC in Syria??
   
4. Today we are trying to desperately re-write our history and erasing our own heritage to love the religion more than the prophets?
   
5. Seriously much of the terrorist and sectarian ailments of our societ can be traced back to pan-islamism and ummah obsessions..
   
6. Muslims countries which stayed away from brotherhood and ummah obsession have done remarkably well...point in case Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, etc!
   
7. Today none of these "brothers" are to be found to even condemn the severe security and stability crisis we are under. Not a word has been uttered against drone strikes. Not even a semblance of responsibility towards OBL...Pakistan has been abandoned by the very same Ummah it choose to defend vehemently..
   
8. its like waking up to reality...the so called Ataturk moment when he realized the very same Muslims were backstabbing them now...and he must have thought to hell with brotherhood and lets built the nation to stand on its own feet...I think what Pakistan needs today is a visionary like Ataturk!

I am a hindu, but I surely like few things in Islam.
Concept of Ummah is not bad at all ! But fanatics & radical muslims are using it for destructive purposes instead of constructive purposes.
That has made the Ummah concept problematic to other non-muslims.

There is no such thing called unity based on Islamism. This concept is pan-Islamism which is completely alien to the concept introduced in the Koran. However, those who are influenced by Mullah terrorism and extremism will always call for caliphate and pan islamist unity, when actually God says such an unity is impractical and cannot exist.

God celebrates and revers difference between our cultures, language and tradition:



Differences and divisions across culture is something respected and acknowledged by God:



Koran does not suggest that a country should have caliphate/nation state etc. but just gives some protocols to be followed:

1. Decide affairs after mutual consultation (democracy) (42:38, 3:159)

2. Judicial system based on justice (5:8, 60:8)

3. Positions held by qualified people (4:58)

4. Authority rested on believers (4:59)

5. Settle disputes between believers without fight (49:10)

^ Most of the above principles are reflected in the democratic legislative model in the western world.

Excellent Post !! Kudos to You ...
Hope to see such more posts from other Pakistani members of the forum !

 

[The SC]

There is no such thing called unity based on Islamism. This concept is pan-Islamism which is completely alien to the concept introduced in the Koran. However, those who are influenced by Mullah terrorism and extremism will always call for caliphate and pan islamist unity, when actually God says such an unity is impractical and cannot exist.

God celebrates and revers difference between our cultures, language and tradition:



Differences and divisions across culture is something respected and acknowledged by God:



Koran does not suggest that a country should have caliphate/nation state etc. but just gives some protocols to be followed:

1. Decide affairs after mutual consultation (democracy) (42:38, 3:159)

2. Judicial system based on justice (5:8, 60:8)

3. Positions held by qualified people (4:58)

4. Authority rested on believers (4:59)

5. Settle disputes between believers without fight (49:10)

^ Most of the above principles are reflected in the democratic legislative model in the western world.

Where did you learn "your" Islam, you forgot God saying: "and we made you one Ummah, to know each other and..."

God celebrates and revers difference between our cultures, language and tradition:

"Among His signs are the creations of the heavens and the Earth, and the differences in your languages and colours. In that are signs for all people". (Qur'an 30:22)

He was talking about the Muslims specifically

Differences and divisions across culture is something respected and acknowledged by God:

And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ. Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. 11:118-119

Now he speaks about Mankind and its "different" communities, So Muslims form A community of their own, others form other communities.

The western world historic envy of Islamic principles made it a Muslim world without adhering formally to Islam due to the ignorance and hatred by the Christian ignorant clergy, so they want to abide by the best principles that suite their economy, while ignoring the morality ones, all out of historic negative emotions toward Islam.
And they think they are advanced humans, while they are still run by negative thoughts hidden behind artificial nice smiles andartificial positiveness.
Muslims are more genuine and their smile bothers the infidels till their hearts.

And the problem here is you are too much engrossed in religion to see through anything.

The problem is that you are blind to the truth.